So What Is Real?

I don’t think they were stupid, they just didn’t know any better. They were too circuit hyper-focused. The same with fuses. 

My favorite audiophoolery delusion is thinking that the great designers of the best electronics were too stupid to use a decent power cord, but that some internet marketer or commission salesman has just the right secret ingredient in his contraption.

"So has anyone changed their mind yet about cables?"

I have not changed my mind and I would not blink if I had to go back to the lamp cord I had used for many years, but just last week I did notice something.

I swapped stock cables from two different sets of earphones. I do not know what the actual build difference is, except that one is less pliable than the other one which I suspect is due to thicker plastic "jacket". Well, I still believe I did hear the difference every time, which is five or six times in a row. I did it with both sets of earphones, too. Not blinded, not a large sample, no nothing, just a very primitive curiosity. It could have easily been my bias which, in case I had it, I am not sure which way it would lean and why.

Much more importantly, as much as I think there was a difference, I am sure that the difference was just a difference and not anything "better". No jaw-dropping soundstage that opened to the next block, no deeper lows, no darker blacks, no musicians walking in the room.

I used to live happily with my lamp cord and now I am perfectly fine with whatever stock cable came with these earphones. Life is too short to obsess over cables and to conduct real meaningful comparison tests.

elrod....mho, I think the sun will rise in the west first....;)

So has anyone changed their mind yet about cables?

*L*  I wonder which would be the 'levitation of choice'?

Obviously one would be more sound....(too easy of a pun, sorry...) or, having all the iron in one's bloodstream put you on a different plane of existence? (only slightly better...maybe....)

What would the latter do to all the lead in one's head?

Curious mind's just get more curious...if not outright vague...*L*

Good morning, BTW. *S*

Reading many posts I realized the singularity of my experience and experiments... I lived trough a successive continuous strings of little improvements( appearing to me not so little each times I implemented them tough) without changing any electronic components nor speakers...

I discovered this way how to create improvements by modifications in the three embeddings : the  mechanical embeddings, the acoustical field and the electrical grid...


This is for me the proof that most people dont have a clue about the way to improve except by buying new electronic components... I was exactly like that 7 years ago, but without money, I tought with homemade low cost solutions... My best to all...

The only time in recent memory that I immediately heard a clear and distinct improvement in sq is when, about two months ago, I switched out my very highly regarded B&W wooden box speakers (with conventional dynamic woofers and tweeters) for a new pair of magnepan LRS speakers. Now THAT was worth the money!!!

@hombre, "On a completely unrelated note I have compared CD with 320 kbs AAC and after switching back and forth for a while I had to realize I couldn’t tell the difference. And my system is pretty good. Schiit Vidar amp, Maggie LRS speakers, Oppo 203 UDP. This was not what I wanted to hear. I wanted the CD to be better. But it just isn’t. Nor is high-rez (IMO). I compared a 24/192 bluray of Supertramps "Crime of the Century" with a CD of the same. Again, no difference. And again, not what I had hoped for. So I’ve got the feeling that for me to attempt to hear the difference between speaker wires would probably be a waste of time. My wires are rocketfish 16ga. "oxygen-free copper" (whatever that means) and they’re each six feet long so it seems to me (after all I’ve read about wires) that they probably do not influence the sound at all, but that’s just me."




Definitely not just you alone. As far as I'm aware no human ears have ever been able to reliably identify those 'differences' either.

I once compared the same recordings coming off my Sony NWZ something MP3 player with my Marantz CD6000 ki CD player.

I initially found it disturbing to discover that even with immediate switching from one to the other they sounded alike. It was a difficult feeling to describe, like a sudden and profound disappointment. I had wanted to hear that my MP3 player was reasonably close to my highly regarded CD player, but not that close!

Even now, years later it still slightly rankles that an MP3 player (playing the same 320 Kbps files) can sound identical to a CD player playing the original CDs!

I accept that everything between the recording and our ears does make a theoretical difference, but from day one I never got into this hobby for mere theoretical differences.

I mean like, what do you prefer, 679 grains of salt on your fries or is it 680?

Levitating objects with sound is kind of passé ever since they levitated a frog 🐸  in a magnetic field. 
https://youtu.be/KlJsVqc0ywM

On a completely unrelated note I have compared CD with 320 kbs AAC and after switching back and forth for a while I had to realize I couldn’t tell the difference. And my system is pretty good. Schiit Vidar amp, Maggie LRS speakers, Oppo 203 UDP. This was not what I wanted to hear. I wanted the CD to be better. But it just isn’t. Nor is high-rez (IMO). I compared a 24/192 bluray of Supertramps "Crime of the Century" with a CD of the same. Again, no difference. And again, not what I had hoped for. So I’ve got the feeling that for me to attempt to hear the difference between speaker wires would probably be a waste of time. My wires are rocketfish 16ga. "oxygen-free copper" (whatever that means) and they’re each six feet long so it seems to me (after all I’ve read about wires) that they probably do not influence the sound at all, but that’s just me.

On a not-so-related note.... here's our speakers for the '30's...*G*

https://www.wired.com/video/watch/scientist-explains-how-to-levitate-objects-with-sound

"The cat is out of the bag. Everybody and his brother knows reviewers can’t hear diddly squat and blind tests don’t mean anything. When you combine them you get squaddush."

*L*  Well, geoff, at least we get a nifty hip noun....
....which I won't use, either... ;)  Thanks for nothing....

I want so much to agree with you. The good ones I’ve heard in my rig each have their own nuanced sound. My relatively limited (as compared to others here) experience is that a good cable can make sound come alive.

As for what sounds ‘real‘, you know it when you hear it. Certain cables will sound very real, but in a more ‘beautiful’ way. I know that sounds unscientific. Certain DACs can lend that same elusive quality too. I find that the cable which sounds more beautiful to me produces a large three-dimensional sound and has that presence in the lower end, a big blooming midrange, with sparkling but not overcooked highs. One the other hand, i have a cable that is exciting, and definitely a bit tilted in the high frequencies. It sounds a a db louder at similar volume settings and the initial impression is more definition and resolution, which is not the case. This cable to me doesn’t have the same degree of true resolution overall and it can’t render tonal beauty to the same degree.

So in a long winded way, I am sorry to say its not as easy as ‘all cables sound the same’. Take heart though, because you don’t have to spend a king’s ransom to get a great sounding interconnect and speaker cable, but you may have to save up the pocket money for several months 😬

@mahlman

For many here on Audiogon, we are just misguided and have far more money than sense it seems. With that said, why would you want to go and rain on our parade? LOL

Klipsch....is not my standard nor benchmark. It may be for many and that’s cool. I am only slightly more interested in the wire Klipsch uses than the wire that Bose chooses to use.

I would advise though that your anger and rage is not going to get better if you keep on doing what you’ve been doing, whatever that is. Peace.

bob540, how about you try some aftermarket IC, SC and power cords, and get back to us.  

I already did what you suggest. See my article about the Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator at Dagogo.com 

Now, it's your turn.  

Bob,
Do your own research & get back with us (or not). Your test asks for the novice opinion, so you’re apparently qualified.

The cat is out of the bag. Everybody and his brother knows reviewers can’t hear diddly squat and blind tests don’t mean anything. When you combine them you get squaddush.

Once, many years ago, a small batch of Golden Ear reviewers failed to tell the difference between a Pioneer receiver (god forbid) and several high price separates behind the curtain.

I designed Corporate Interiors in NYC for 46 years. I worked on 44th street, 1 block from Harvey's, Leonard, visited Sound by Singer (arse), .... went to NYC audio shows, stayed current

I used to help wealthy clients with their home systems. I came to focus on features, and ease of use, especially for busy executives (think fancy av systems in Conference Centers I designed).

They were drawn to pricey stuff. I realized, you have to like something every time you see/touch/use it. That is a part of the enjoyment, even before the needle drops.

Same thing with any part of the chain.

Open the curtain, which believer wants to turn on a Pioneer receiver?

Much of the allure of LP/TT is the difference you personally make getting it right. It moves on from there.

bob540,

Did you have to?

Well, it may be prudent to brace for impact.

You mentioned blind testing and cables. That is a war zone. Had you added fuses, the apocalipse would be on the horizon.

I would be interested to see the results of an blind experiment in which a variety of subjects, including some self-identified audiophiles, are presented with varieties of music played over the same equipment, in the same room, and the only variable is the cabling used to connect the equipment — from the cheap audio cables at the discount stores, to the somewhat more expensive cables available in garden-variety audio equipment stores (e.g., Best Buy) to the truly high-end and very expensive cables only available from select companies.  Then have the subjects rate the quality of the sound they hear from various unknown cables and see if the ratings reflect the cost/reputation of the various cables.  It would also interest me to know if the acclaimed professional listeners do appreciably better than the average person at detecting which music is played through less expensive cables versus most expensive cables.

Anyone care to do this research (I would find it interesting but I’m a novice on this topic and do not feel qualified) and get back to us?

geoffkait,

"Me topsy, you turvy."

For a moment, I thought you said "you topsy, me curvy". And there went my day...

glupson

"Sorry, dude, but Monster Cable were never high end."

Until I bought them and connected them between an Onkyo receiver and Mission 761i. They stayed high end for decades, even after those two were long gone.
Report this

>>>>>Everything’s topsy turvy, glubson. Me topsy, you turvy.

emailists
What is the best threads in your opinion?
Today it may be a new album, TT, DAC or speaker. It may vary what our interest are for the moment?

This topic is broad almost every item need a cable of some sort. And there is only a fraction that is interested in the TT of brand X and model y or they are into DACs instead..
No offense ment just thinking out loud.. :)  

Why is the worst threads seem to get the most posts lately?   

That strikes me that the cable believers they are that because they have heard the difference.
The cable nay sayers have not heard the difference in cables.

Both are right but why?

I have been in countless of hi-fi shows there I have attended cable demonstrations. Of power cable and also another with speaker cables. (I did learn that there is apparently shielded speaker cables..)

So the prof is in the pudding. 🎵
But if we try to eat the pudding in an environment like under water in the ocean. We would all think that different puddings taste the same (salty water). But in air the taste difference is there clearly. And it is the same puddings that we tasted under water.

The same goes for the smaller impacts like amps, speakers, source and so on. But the bigger percentage impact is the environment like the acoustic properties of the room. That is ~≥50% of the sound! So it is not ONLY the brain and ear auditorium that differs on us all it is also we have different opinions on exactly the same gears.

But those that has had all the stars aligned with the right treated room, resolving gear, sonically divergent cables and so on. Has heard a difference in cables are cables believers. We hear like in this thread nay sayers going to believing in cables. But we seldom hear the other way around.

Yes, we (believers) have also heard no differences in many cases. But if that were the room, system, sonically same cables that were compared.. But I have also in fact put in in my system many years ago a pair of RCA cables that on paper should be okay with the right "bells and whistles". I was so disappointed that I took a scissor and destroyed them immediately so that nobody else/I should be using them by mistake in the future. (You know when you hook up a new peace of gear and you reach for RCA cables at hand.. I did not want to risk to take that pair!)

Why should manufacturer make A and B comparisons in high end shows for audiophiles. If there were no differences? Would they cheat and put the whole company at risk?

"Lets look at things logically as I am sure that would appeal to you. Monster cables were high end back then but did not stay with Klipsch long. Would you care to say why? ..."
               I have no idea.  Nor will I guess.

 "... The guy that designed the speakers did not use this fru fru stuff on playback in his sound lab. Would you care to say why? ..."
               Same answer as above

  "...True I am not a Klipsch spokesman but I know what I have seen with my own eyes and if fancy wiring was successful in Klipsch eyes would they have ever stopped it? ..."

Klipsch didn't stop it.  I posted a link to a Klipsch publication and a Klipsch video, both of which describe the use of "fancy wiring" in 2 of their current Heritage speakers.  They may use it in more; I don't know.
 
" ...You all are getting pissy because a sacred idol is being impugned and can't come up with one bit of actual scientific evidence to bolster all the grandiose assertions made.... "

I can't speak for others, but if presenting facts about current Klipsch speakers  is getting "pissy" then color me "pissy."  Nor have I made any grandiose assertions.

" ... Cable cookers, directional wiring, $60,000 for 9' of wire per channel + the secret box with knobs on it and you all go for this stuff. I think I am out of here and let the strange huddle together in defense of each other. ..."

 Again; I was making a point, with facts, about an incorrect, speculative post you made about Klipsch speakers.  Nothing more.

As for cabling,  I have no interest in $60K speaker cables or secret boxes. I have always sought value.  I learn as much as I can about materials and construction.  I learn as much as I can by seeking the experience of others on forums, in publications and via personal interaction.  Then by trial.  If I don't like the way they sound, I return or sell them.    

As far as using zip cord, I think I was 17.  It didn't take long to ditch it.


   

"Sorry, dude, but Monster Cable were never high end."

Until I bought them and connected them between an Onkyo receiver and Mission 761i. They stayed high end for decades, even after those two were long gone.

The OP has the dubious honor of becoming the Peter Aczel of the 21st century. Why the obsession with other people’s money? This site used to be help and share, not trash and swear. God forbid those of us having FUN In this hobby.

Sorry, dude, but Monster Cable were never high end. Maybe in your world. In fact Monster Cables were marketed to people just like you, a little gullible and superstitious. 😳

" Frankly, you are in no position to speak for Klipsch. Your representations about Klipsch intentions or motivations are not verifiable.  
"
  Lets look at things logically as I am sure that would appeal to you. Monster cables were high end back then but did not stay with Klipsch long. Would you care to say why?
  The guy that designed the speakers did not use this fru fru stuff on playback in his sound lab. Would you care to say why?
  True I am not a Klipsch spokesman but I know what I have seen with my own eyes and if fancy wiring was successful in Klipsch eyes would they have ever stopped it?
  You all are getting pissy because a sacred idol is being impugned and can't come up with one bit of actual scientific evidence to bolster all the grandiose assertions made.

 Cable cookers, directional wiring, $60,000 for 9' of wire per channel + the secret box with knobs on it and you all go for this stuff. I think I am out of here and let the strange huddle together in defense of each other.   

"Years ago when marketing was trying to come up with something to justify price increases they used Monster Cable. Didn't last long though. The big deal with the CW 4's are the new mid range horn and crossovers and front to back cabinet bracing. They are now remarkable speakers and the guy that designed them used zip cord for cables from his QSC Theater amp when we heard them in the Klipsch sound lab. That fancy wire inside is meant to appeal to certain individuals that think it means something. Fortunately the real improvements are quite significant and this is a fine speaker. When you jump the price up as much as this latest CW has done you need to add fluff where ever you can."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egkjScjWzMk  3:20 in the video.

Frankly, you are in no position to speak for Klipsch.  Your representations about Klipsch intentions or motivations are not verifiable.   


  

I truly feel sorry for all whose ideas prevent them from empirical tests. I feel sorry for those who believe scientists know all there is to know about physical reality and about human hearing. I feel sorry for those who can't hear the difference between a recording and a digital file, which throws away 90% of the timing information we humans needs.
I feel sorry for all who thing one part of a system matters (the amp) and another (its power cord) does not.
Open your minds and listen!

" An updated passive network features premium grade AudioQuest® internal wiring. "
  Years ago when marketing was trying to come up with something to justify price increases they used Monster Cable. Didn't last long though. The big deal with the CW 4's are the new mid range horn and crossovers and front to back cabinet bracing. They are now remarkable speakers and the guy that designed them used zip cord for cables from his QSC Theater amp when we heard them in the Klipsch sound lab. That fancy wire inside is meant to appeal to certain individuals that think it means something. Fortunately the real improvements are quite significant and this is a fine speaker. When you jump the price up as much as this latest CW has done you need to add fluff where ever you can.

.......or maybe it was that the lard reduced the rodents maze-learning ability and swimming endurance and the snake oil did nothing at all. If you read the research on fish oil supplements you will learn that controlled trials involving thousands of test subjects over ten years have resulted in the finding that there is no clinical evidence that they result in any health benefit at all. But eating fresh fish does. The reasons for this are unclear but the facts seem to suggest that you can throw out your fish oil supplements and start eating a can of tuna fish or sardines three times a week or cook fresh fish at home and you will probably benefit healthwise. But look thru your cable channel guide and you’ll find Larry King is now a shill for Omega XL which purportedly cures everything from joint pain to heart disease.   
"....there's a sucker born every minute..."         P.T. Barnum              

It's like religion, you cannot disprove it.

SNAKE OIL is REAL

The term “snake oil” is used to describe any worthless pseudo-medical remedy promoted as a cure for various illnesses. By extension, snake oil salesmen are charlatans who sell such fraudulent goods.

In 19th century America, snake oil was commonly promoted as a cure-all. It was supposedly produced by boiling rattlesnakes and skimming off the oil that rose to the surface. But although it was sometimes prepared in this way, hucksters found it cheaper and easier to substitute other oils.

Sales of alleged rattlesnake oil continued into the 20th century. In 1915 the US government ordered the analysis of a well-known product, Clark Stanley’s Snake Oil Liniment. The analyst found that its main constituents were “a light mineral oil (petroleum product) mixed with about 1 per cent of fatty oil (probably beef fat), capsicum, and possibly a trace of camphor and turpentine”. Since the product contained no snake-derived oil, Stanley was taken to court and found guilty of misbranding and misrepresenting the product. He was fined $20 — the equivalent of about $430 (£280) today.

Nevertheless, since Clark’s formulation was not unlike modern-day capsaicin-based liniments and chest rubs, it was probably of more use than genuine rattlesnake oil, which has not been shown to have any health benefits.

But where did the belief in snake oil arise? It seems that early American immigrants may have adopted native American customs and also transposed to the rattlesnake an ancient British belief that preparations based on the adder can cure various ills.

These notions would have been reinforced in the 1840s when many Chinese labourers arrived to help build the Transcontinental Railroad. They would almost certainly have brought with them oil from the Chinese water-snake (Laticauda semifasciata, black-banded sea krait), which in traditional Chinese medicine has been used for centuries as an anti-inflammatory agent to treat arthritis, bursitis and other joint pains. These labourers may have offered snake oil to fellow workers as relief for enduring long days of physical effort.

Modern-day research suggests that Chinese water-snake oil may indeed have health benefits because of its high content of omega-3 fatty acids. In 1989 an analysis of snake oil bought in San Francisco’s Chinatown found that it contained 20 per cent eicosapentaenoic acid, which is more than is found in popular omega-3 food sources such as salmon.

Omega-3 fatty acids have been shown to reduce inflammation and are alleged to offer many other health benefits. Although many of the claims made for them — often by the modern equivalent of the snake oil salesman — are unproven, it does appear that they may help in lowering systolic blood pressure, improving cognitive function, reducing the risk of dementia and relieving depression.

A few years ago, researchers in Japan evaluated the effect of Chinese sea-snake oil on a number of outcomes in mice. They found that, compared with lard, snake oil significantly improved the rodents’ maze-learning ability and swimming endurance.

So it seems that snake oil salesmen may not be such mountebanks after all, provided they sell the right sort of oil for the right indications.

One funny aspect of moving up the chain of 'better' best' 'new best' is:

by the time we get enough surplus money to afford better, best, new best, we are OLDER, our hearing, especially high frequencies, is beginning and progressively diminishing.

A great deal of the 'differences' is in the high frequencies.

Old Reviewer's Ears are .....

amg56
I am so disappointed that this forum, and in fact much of the posted subject matter in the forums are so bad. I originally came to this forum to commune and learn from the people who know about the subjects who we, want to learn about and from those we expected to learn from. I am very disappointed the see that this forum (and of all subjects) are full of vitriol, sarcasm, commentary that is so off subject, and the ever destructive trolls big noting themselves that the conversation and subject matter becomes irrelevant.
To those who what to learn, I am sorry for you that the knowledgeable persons are shut down by ignorant big noters, and those that want to learn are shut out by big nobodies.

>>>>>>Hey, that’s kind of the way it goes on these troll threads sometimes. Maybe best to relax and enjoy the ride.

I was a non-believer that cables make a difference until I witnessed it on my own system. I had bought a new interconnect cable thinking it would be an upgrade over what I already had, I was shocked at the difference in sounds / loss of brightness and extended low end that had been there before...  I quickly went back to my original $30 interconnect cable.

Like some of  the comments here have suggested, use what sounds good to YOU!

I am so disappointed that this forum, and in fact much of the posted subject matter in the forums are so bad. I originally came to this forum to commune and learn from the people who know about the subjects who we, want to learn about and from those we expected to learn from. I am very disappointed the see that this forum (and of all subjects) are full of vitriol, sarcasm, commentary that is so off subject, and the ever destructive trolls big noting themselves  that the conversation and subject matter becomes irrelevant.
To those who what to learn, I am sorry for you that the knowledgeable persons are shut down by ignorant big noters, and those that want to learn are shut out by big nobodies.

I hope that this forum can return to one that exhibits those with (teaching) knowledge such that the newbies and those without audio knowledge are able to learn of this wide and wonderful subject.

I hope that the trolls stay away so we can learn without bad influences.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But where the subject is learning, can the trolls stay away so "we" can learn and gain some knowledge without being trampled on.


I actually have a lot of respect for this forum, however if the sarcasm, bitterness between poster's, and those persons who consciously sabotage the posts which want to learn.

I hope those with trivial comments leave, so we who are serious can learn.

I suspect the former had more to do with improvement over the latter....just saying....

Quite likely the case. Like in the examples I heard I never heard those changes as separate changes just heard the gross before and after. That being said the original cross-over parts, which I did see, were pretty low grade so almost "quality" part would have been an improvement.

"And here we have a cable, which is, in effect,  a capacitor, and having a better made one can't bring out more in the original recording like a better amp or source can? "

That being said capacitor types do have different sonic signatures that most experienced listeners can, or should be able to hear. After-all most can detect amp differences and caps play a significant part in their sonic differences. And yeah wires have capacitive effect but its a bit more complex than just that. 

From what I've been led to believe. a capacitor can act as a simple crossover in a 2 way unit....perhaps in the 'better' cables, this capacitance is minimized, But....isn't this still like a very primitive bit of eq?

Might be more correct to say that negative parts of the capacitance effect are minimized just as higher grade caps have less of a negative impact. Bandwidth related issues being one example.

I'm an actual "professional listener" as I'm seriously overpaid to mix live concerts (snakes...live 100 plus foot snakes), and note that my opinions about wire are Real Important...I say buy whatever sounds best to you. I use AQ speaker cable and Morrow and AQ ICs because they work and without them it would be very quiet around here. I'm very proud of an AQ solid silver sp/dif digital cable I bought used for peanuts. Plus, I talked to Bill Low once and I feel if I didn't use some of his stuff he'd get upset, although I've used AQ wires of various types for around 30 years or something...back when most things were STRANDED. To sum up: Don't be stranded.

I too buy wire/cables by how they look and feel! Just like jewelry! Audio jewelry! 

jrwaudio,

"I buy cables based on looks, is that bad???"

Not at all, you are in a good company although it is only two of us who admit. The rest try to find other excuses.

So, is this a "reality thread" as implied in the title, or is it yet another "cable thread"?

I buy cables based on looks, is that bad???
Now where did I stash my drugs??

“I'd like to know when the "cable" people last had a hearing test? Can you hear 20k HZ? Probably not.”
You are asking the wrong people, this statement should be asked for all cable naysayers. If we can hear a difference between cables, then there’s nothing wrong with our ears, I question the naysayers ears

You're asking the wrong question.  Instead ask, "What Is Hip?"  It has a beat and it's easy to dance to.  Ain't it funky now! 


Seriously, being an audiophile is a harmless hobby/activity, don't take it too seriously.  Well at least take it less seriously than most audiophiles do.

It seems many think there is some “perfect” sound that is the final answer. I believe the reality is that there will never be a perfect sound that fits everyone, that you can list products that will help to achieve this better. Everyone has different preferences. Look for mixes of products that achieve the sound you prefer. You are the only one that can determine that. Opinions and reviews can help to direct you where to look, and then you might find it’s not the sound that you thought was described. Also, if others are like me, I find I like many different sounds, so there will never be a one perfect sound for me. I might prefer some colorations or certain areas of the sound to be accented over others, while also liking a sound that dosnt do that. Variety is the spice of life, I’d hate to limit myself because I’m supposed to be looking for “the one”. If you think a cable or wire sounds good to you. That’s great. Wouldn’t dream of trying to convince you otherwise, nor would I care to convince someone who hears no difference that there’s something wrong with their perceptions. I won’t put down anyone’s idea of what sounds great to them, on either side of the coin. No one is wrong, but need to realize, they’re not wrong, only for themselves.

#%^*^%##### and I used some leftover Vampire Wire to re-wire the 1972 Cornwalls