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So What Is Real?

There is a newsletter I subscribe to because the guy seems to talk about reality and not what some sales dude wants to sell you. mwaldrep@aixrecords.com   Now the funny thing to me is that all these cable specialists of high dollar remedies for flawed playback are somehow going to magically change what you hear and will then rise above the abilities of the music file limitations and recording engineers. A dumb wire that is used to create the hi-res recordings so sought after is not somehow suitable for the playback of the same. The following is from Waldreps newsletter and I fully agree. I love this guy and he is a light shining through all the smoke and mirror BS of high end audio. I confess I too am a cable denier and incapable of hearing " further uptick in micro-dynamic jump " but love the delicious word salad these guys create to try to describe something that is not there. I can see the cable guy sitting there with his buddy. Wow did you hear that uptick in micro-dynamics!!  You just know that's how he would talk, right?
  As an aside here how does one become a professional listener? What is the criteria for attaining this lofty goal? How do you know when you have arrived and what governing authority sets down the requirements for such a thing so you know  you are not deceiving yourself and others? Is it a nebulous category that is assigned to you when you spend a certain level of money or do you have verifiable and provable abilities above the norm as recognized by a large group of people including recording industry engineers, professional sound installers and high end audio system owners? In other words anyone but cable sellers?

  The following is from "Dr. AIX Post for January 25, 2020"

 " Cable Nonsense

What is it that Art Linkletter used to say? Kids say the darndest things. Well, it seems some FB audio group administrators, audiophiles, high-end audio salespersons, audiophile society officials, and manufacturers also say things that make little or no sense when talking or posting about cables.

I usually steer clear of FB posts or online magazines that promote high-end audio cables. It's just never safe to present with science, established electrical engineering theory and practice, or objectiveness when cables are concerned. A recent exchange on a familiar FB audio group page resulted in a member calling me a "cable denier" because I advocated for science and physics in evaluating power cords.

The thread basically dismissed my comments because I'm a member of the professional audio engineering community. Audio equipment salespeople, FB administrators, high-end audio marketing managers, and the general audio buying public are claimed to be better and more reliable sources of information when it comes to recommending expensive accessories and cables. According to the gentleman below, they are capable of listening in ways that audio professionals can not.

One commenter wrote:

"Mark is a pro and speaks just like one, but he is not a professional LISTENER, like you (Writer's NOTE: the guy offering the ultra expensive power cords), I and so many others in the high-end industry. Interesting is that most so-called experts are also naysayers who work in the recording industry, not in the high-end industry."

What does this statement actually claim? That professional audio engineers and producers do not know how to listen? That spending one's professional life in front of speakers in a control room doesn't require listening?Maybe...just maybe...the engineers responsible for producing the recordings that are played back in these guys high-end systems are correct in their assessment of power cords and expensive USB/Ethernet cables. Image that!

Can you really trust a gentlemen that just launched a new cable company that offers a 6-foot power cord for $3150? Oh and this person also believes that cables are directional! BTW They are not.

Here's a couple of additional comments...

"Cables can make a difference. I’m glad I can hear those differences it truly enhances the experience. I have been a dedicated audiophile and in the industry for over 45 years and have been able to identify those differences since my first experience with Smog Lifters in the 70’s. I search for and usually discover great products that deserve special attention by people looking for the last bit of resolution and coherency. I’m truly sorry for those that wouldn’t hear the difference."

Here's a comment from an individual that swapped a normal Ethernet cable for an expensive one.

"...the Vodka seemed to remove a layer of film for superior textural reveal. There was also a shade more tonal depth and recording space ‘air’. Most noticeable of all was a further uptick in micro-dynamic jump."

I don't know about you but I cringe when I hear people talk about audio in such terms. And this after listening to a commercial album and then stopping, swapping the cable and relistening. It's unbelievable.

I could pull quotes from cable reviews all afternoon but I think you get the point. When anyone starts spewing nonsense about power cords, digital interconnects, or network cables, run away. Keep your wallet in your pocket and unsubscribe from that group or online magazine. Their motivations are suspect. They either want to sell you something (usually at very high cost) or are dependent on advertising dollars from the companies they write about or the individuals they interview.

"
mahlman

Showing 20 responses by mahgister

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I will take the credit.... :)

I know that the scope of this discussion is limited by my own understanding.... :)


" I am saying what you see dear ! " Groucho Marx
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
Cryogenics: mechanical....Like vibrations resonance controls...


There exist all kind of mechanical modifications of materials or piece of gear...

There exist all kind of modifications more linked to the electrical grid of the room house and gear....

There exist all kind of modifications linked to the acoustical space....A Schumann Generator modified with stones produce an effect that is audible in the room listening space...It is an acoustical effect linked to an electrical piece of gear...

These 4 embeddings are not science it is only a simple way to distinguish some tweaks and controls methods from one another....But they are ultimately all linked to one another in an  audio experience called "music listening" ...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
:) no commentary....



" You ego goes away with the  smoke of your cigar, the problem is when you dont light one" -One of the Marx brothers
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
You are not negating them, but you are underestimated them by placing other fields over these basic one...I know about these other fields but my take is that the 4 fondamental one has more impactful audible effects than the others ( information field included)...The reason is simple: How to assess with very audible certainty a change in S.Q. linked to your "information field" in an audio system where these 4 embeddings are seriously lacking controls?

Beginners and more simplistic spirit here dont know about these 4 embeddings grid and sometimes dont even buy them all...Imagine adding an information field in the sense of Sheldrake and not Shannon ?

The question is not about the audible effects linked to some 5th "information field " embeddings, the question is what are the most audible impactful effects in an audio system?

You catch it, I am sure cicada? :)


mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I am like Aristotle with his 4 causality forms.... It is basic...And always valuable except for those who dont understand Aristotle indeed...Invoking other embeddings is ok ,they exist, but it is preposterous to negate the first 4 one because of information theory, Maxwell equations, or Heisenberg matrix mechanix...


"Sand flow in my hourglass matter for my eggs and are not nil because of Einstein relativity" -  Cook chef Groucho Marx
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I am astounded that most people dont know that any audio changes in sound is not only system dependant relating to some particular electronic components, but way more related to the 4 grids where an audio system is embedded ...

Then any affirmation of some changes, positives or negatives, is not here to be doubted and mocked or to be trusted, it is only an indication of a possible way to improve something in some particular audio system....The fact that we hear it ourselves or not has nothing to do most of the times with his reality for some ears other than our owns.... My best....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
:)
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
When you are right, you are more really right than just reely…. And I speak always my mind... :)


mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I feel strongly that we need to move beyond such foolish questions as what is real. What we as audiophiles should be asking is what is real to real?
You are right.... My best to you...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I value you really glupson...You have forget perhaps but you takes times for me in the beginning here to explain something about the conversations here... i will remember that my friend ….I wish you always the best...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
My deepest salutations to you nonoise...

For the question asked, very interesting one, I cannot answer myself or perhaps I dare not... :)


" With a cigar, sometimes I feel like a megalodon  myself ! "- Groucho Marx
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I am surprised that you are less wise than normal.... :)
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
But I like shark and remora alike, and all living being, including anglefish, barracuda, or little kid with orange inflatable device... :)
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
Between glupson and geoffkait, I dont know who is the shark and who is the remora anymore, I think one play the role in turn..... :) I did not know Uncle Remus …. :) My story  comes from uncle Paul mix with Jean de Lafontaine....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 

Nothing wrong with that. The man has time, likes it, can afford it, and enjoys it. Along the way, he provides job and food on the table for a few families. Win-win. I wouldn't do it to such an extent, but no harm was done in this story.
Wise remarks from Glupson...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
If I can afford it I will go with very high expanse to accommodate a room for musical experience...I understand that, we put our money where our pleasure ask for...Then to criticize others for their expanse has no meanings except annoyance...

I cannot invest high amount of money for my audiophile experience... Then to create an Hi-Fi with cost converging to "almost zero" was my task...And it is possible...


In my experience the electronic components ratio price/ quality sound represent only 15 % of the audio final resulting experience...

This proportion would seem to be too low for many of you...This % can vary for the worst if your speakers are not of sufficient high quality level, if your dac is too low quality, and amplifier less performing...If you had way better electronic components your sound will be better than mine but I dont think that better electronic components will modify the impactful influence of the 3 embeddings in term of importance for the peak potential experience in itself...For example a better and costlier electronic components gear system will not sound better than my audio system if the costlier system is badly embedded in the 3 environments: mechanical, acoustical, electrical...
All my tweaks were improvised, homemade, created solutions, with very low cost...

1 Controls of vibrations resonance is 15 %


2 Acoustical field of the room 35 %

3 Electrical embeddings grid 35%


These remarks are only made to create a counter argument to the almost universal pressure to buy the costlier electronic components, this is represented as the only way to Hi-Fi, and that is false because of the law of diminishing returns...Giving a relatively good quality of electronic components to begins with (like mine), at a certain threshold, the difference between an ordinary or low level audiophile experience and a high level one is determined by the controls of the  3 embeddings mostly...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I understand you.... I would scatch my head too, if my own post were not one of the 2. :)
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
I feel proud of my 400 dollars approx. for Amp+Dac+speakers, with good cable (Morrow m3 being the most expansive then i know cables makes a difference)...

Some will be shocked by how good my S.Q. is...I will repeat my mantra:


No upgrading of an electronic components would by itself be an assurance of an optimal peak audiophile S.Q. not even for the more costly...Cables are not the most impactful upgrades at all...It is an illusion to thought that...


1 Mechanical controlled environment of vibrations and resonance...

2 Acoustical treatment of rooms not only and mostly by acoustic materials, but more than that with S.G. (Schumann Generator modified) and different resonators Helmholtz one and others...


3 Cleaning of the noise floor at ALL levels of the house electrical flowing grid...( I use my onw homemade low costs devices)

After that my humble system will blow your mind and ashamed anyone that has paid too much for what they had... Think about that my system cost under 500 bucks... The tweaks cost more but not much more...:)

Cables are important like any other electronic components, but only that, no electronic components made miracles...An electronic component made miracle only if you compared in general with gear of a lower category, or compared with gear in the same level but non efficiently treated... The embeddings of a system is the key to peak potential S.Q. nothing else...except for the engineer marketing that need you to buy an upgrade instead of thinking about the embeddings of your actual system...

I know my system can be beat, but by very costly one indeed, and preferably by a way better embeddings...But for my ratio price/ final S.Q. my happiness is self contained... :)


To the beginners here: dont buy, think....

I know all that I say by experience, because I go with the same gear to sound quality like " shit" to astronomical transformation without any changes except in the embeddings... And my dac is very good, my speakers were the best Mission has ever made, and the Sansui AU 7700 one of the best Sansui...
 never mind that they were good gear when I listen to these before the modifications in the embeddings, I was more than frustrated...The same system  now made me smile at any more possible upgrade because when you have it music is music...Imaging, timbre, dynamic, you know when it is there or not....I will not pay for the 15,000 dollars I need to had a real upgrade of the electronic components...I cannot and I am not too much in temptation now... :) Lesson learned : treat the triple embeddings, dont buy....



mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
Reading many posts I realized the singularity of my experience and experiments... I lived trough a successive continuous strings of little improvements( appearing to me not so little each times I implemented them tough) without changing any electronic components nor speakers...

I discovered this way how to create improvements by modifications in the three embeddings : the  mechanical embeddings, the acoustical field and the electrical grid...


This is for me the proof that most people dont have a clue about the way to improve except by buying new electronic components... I was exactly like that 7 years ago, but without money, I tought with homemade low cost solutions... My best to all...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,961 posts
 
My ears are those 68 years old ears...Normal hearing for my age tough… First precision...

Second remark, those who dont hears differences between cables has no educated hearing at all, or a very gross audio system, or a hearing health problem...In a moderately resolving audio system cables sound different for slightly educated ears...

Third remark, even if i was hearing differences with all the cables I used immediately, that does not indicate that these changes are very great.... I cannot speak for thousand dollars cable tough...


But my opinion that audiophiles that dream that some cables will makes an upgrade dont have a clue about upgrades...Cables are all different, and sound different, but the price of 300 hundred dollars for a cable for example is not always justifiable in a 2 or 3 thousand dollars system...

The main upgrade of a system is even not, most of the times, an upgrade of the main electronic components of an audio system at all, be it an amplifier, a dac, or speakers, then never mind the cables....

The main upgrade of an audio system( by that I means amazing improvement), unbeknownst to most, is the means of controls of the 3 main embeddings of any audio system: mechanical, acoustical and electrical embeddings...After that you can dream about changing a main electronic component if this is your fancy...

Conversation about cables only reflect most of the times this ignorance about audio system, and open the doors for deaf ears, or dogmatics, who mocks others negating anything they cannot or dont want to experience......
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