There is a newsletter I subscribe to because the guy seems to talk about reality and not what some sales dude wants to sell you. mwaldrep@aixrecords.com Now the funny thing to me is that all these cable specialists of high dollar remedies for flawed playback are somehow going to magically change what you hear and will then rise above the abilities of the music file limitations and recording engineers. A dumb wire that is used to create the hi-res recordings so sought after is not somehow suitable for the playback of the same. The following is from Waldreps newsletter and I fully agree. I love this guy and he is a light shining through all the smoke and mirror BS of high end audio. I confess I too am a cable denier and incapable of hearing "
further uptick in micro-dynamic jump
" but love the delicious word salad these guys create to try to describe something that is not there. I can see the cable guy sitting there with his buddy. Wow did you hear that uptick in micro-dynamics!! You just know that's how he would talk, right? As an aside here how does one become a professional listener? What is the criteria for attaining this lofty goal? How do you know when you have arrived and what governing authority sets down the requirements for such a thing so you know you are not deceiving yourself and others? Is it a nebulous category that is assigned to you when you spend a certain level of money or do you have verifiable and provable abilities above the norm as recognized by a large group of people including recording industry engineers, professional sound installers and high end audio system owners? In other words anyone but cable sellers?
The following is from "Dr. AIX Post for January 25, 2020"
"
Cable Nonsense
What
is it that Art Linkletter used to say? Kids say the darndest things.
Well, it seems some FB audio group administrators, audiophiles, high-end
audio salespersons, audiophile society officials, and manufacturers
also say things that make little or no sense when talking or posting
about cables.
I
usually steer clear of FB posts or online magazines that promote
high-end audio cables. It's just never safe to present with science,
established electrical engineering theory and practice, or objectiveness
when cables are concerned. A recent exchange on a familiar FB audio
group page resulted in a member calling me a "cable denier" because I
advocated for science and physics in evaluating power cords.
The
thread basically dismissed my comments because I'm a member of the
professional audio engineering community. Audio equipment salespeople,
FB administrators, high-end audio marketing managers, and the general
audio buying public are claimed to be better and more reliable sources
of information when it comes to recommending expensive accessories and
cables. According to the gentleman below, they are capable of listening in ways that audio professionals can not.
One commenter wrote:
"Mark is a pro and speaks just like one, but he is not a professional LISTENER, like you (Writer's NOTE: the guy offering the ultra expensive power cords),
I and so many others in the high-end industry. Interesting is that most
so-called experts are also naysayers who work in the recording
industry, not in the high-end industry."
What
does this statement actually claim? That professional audio engineers
and producers do not know how to listen? That spending one's
professional life in front of speakers in a control room doesn't require
listening?Maybe...just maybe...the engineers responsible for producing
the recordings that are played back in these guys high-end systems are
correct in their assessment of power cords and expensive USB/Ethernet
cables. Image that!
Can
you really trust a gentlemen that just launched a new cable company that
offers a 6-foot power cord for $3150? Oh and this person also believes
that cables are directional! BTW They are not.
Here's a couple of additional comments...
"Cables
can make a difference. I’m glad I can hear those differences it truly
enhances the experience. I have been a dedicated audiophile and in the
industry for over 45 years and have been able to identify those
differences since my first experience with Smog Lifters in the 70’s. I
search for and usually discover great products that deserve special
attention by people looking for the last bit of resolution and
coherency. I’m truly sorry for those that wouldn’t hear the difference."
Here's a comment from an individual that swapped a normal Ethernet cable for an expensive one.
"...the
Vodka seemed to remove a layer of film for superior textural reveal.
There was also a shade more tonal depth and recording space ‘air’.
Most noticeable of all was a further uptick in micro-dynamic jump."
I
don't know about you but I cringe when I hear people talk about audio in
such terms. And this after listening to a commercial album and then
stopping, swapping the cable and relistening. It's unbelievable.
I
could pull quotes from cable reviews all afternoon but I think you get
the point. When anyone starts spewing nonsense about power cords,
digital interconnects, or network cables, run away. Keep your wallet in
your pocket and unsubscribe from that group or online magazine. Their
motivations are suspect. They either want to sell you something (usually
at very high cost) or are dependent on advertising dollars from the
companies they write about or the individuals they interview.
Gosh you guys? I gotta go feed the chickens. What was this conversation about? Torpedos, or leftovers from last night. BIG BLAST OF WIND... Ohh I feel so much better.
Before the BS, there has to be WIND. So what is real?
Shi? stinks, except mine, any smell takers, I'll bottle a batch and sent it your way... Better than eatin' bugs, yup yup Really REAL....
You get partial credit for your answer. That’s the conventional wisdom, sure. The real and complete answer is beyond scope of this discussion. 😬 I don’t wish to alarm anybody. 😱 I’m more concerned with sound than music but I see what you’re saying. 🤗
There exist all kind of mechanical modifications of materials or piece of gear...
There exist all kind of modifications more linked to the electrical grid of the room house and gear....
There exist all kind of modifications linked to the acoustical space....A Schumann Generator modified with stones produce an effect that is audible in the room listening space...It is an acoustical effect linked to an electrical piece of gear...
These 4 embeddings are not science it is only a simple way to distinguish some tweaks and controls methods from one another....But they are ultimately all linked to one another in an audio experience called "music listening" ...
You are not negating them, but you are underestimated them by placing other fields over these basic one...I know about these other fields but my take is that the 4 fondamental one has more impactful audible effects than the others ( information field included)...The reason is simple: How to assess with very audible certainty a change in S.Q. linked to your "information field" in an audio system where these 4 embeddings are seriously lacking controls?
Beginners and more simplistic spirit here dont know about these 4 embeddings grid and sometimes dont even buy them all...Imagine adding an information field in the sense of Sheldrake and not Shannon ?
The question is not about the audible effects linked to some 5th "information field " embeddings, the question is what are the most audible impactful effects in an audio system?
I am like Aristotle with his 4 causality forms.... It is basic...And always valuable except for those who dont understand Aristotle indeed...Invoking other embeddings is ok ,they exist, but it is preposterous to negate the first 4 one because of information theory, Maxwell equations, or Heisenberg matrix mechanix...
"Sand flow in my hourglass matter for my eggs and are not nil because of Einstein relativity" - Cook chef Groucho Marx
"
Welcome to my world, grasshopper. By the way, I urge you to consider
adding a new embedding: you can call it information fields, mind-matter
interaction or extra-sensory perception, as I use those terms
interchangeably for the purposes of the discussion of sound and it’s
perception. I am channeling Peter Belt as we speak and to a lesser
extent Good old Rupert Sheldrake, who never really got on board the
whole audiophile train 🚂 He was more interested in how dogs sense when
their owners are returning home. Also, I’m not sure which embedding the
CD fluttering belongs in, maybe that’s a new embedding. And the
scattered CD laser LIGHT could be a new embedding too. Magnetic fields
might be a new one too. Finally, save an embedding for good old Quantum
Mechanics. This should be a separate embedding, more things are wrought
by Quantum Mechanics than this world dreams of. 🤗 And wire
directionality 🔛 should have its own place in the scheme of things.
"
Tip of the hat to you Geoffkait. I think you have been very clever with your analysis and subsequent marketing. If you were any where near by I would like to stop in and meet you one day.
no ranter here but if you really can’t hear a meaningful difference in the AQ example i used be happy....but i strongly believe you will prefer one or the other. i don’t know the math but the two metals sound very different. i would expect the same with kimber among many that others that offer the two different metals.
Silver / Copper, I can't tell the difference 500hz < very little to me. Above 500-700 hz Yes, but it is still subtle with pure (close) conductors and same size and strand count.
Clad wire on the other hand, night and day. The thickness of the clad and of course the terminal ends. With ribbons or planars, different once again. Monsoon, Strathearns, BG all let you know about clad wire, Some people like the hyper bright sound that it offers, I don't walk away, I RUN..
I've yet to hear anything, ANYTHING different. I can't listen long enough to tell the difference in "The Brands", But I can walk up on a CLAD system and tell it EVERYTIME. I walk away with clench fist and a scowl on my face. YUK!!! Quite a few of the Speaker manufactures use clad wire NOW..again Hyper Bright, highs, bloated bass and WHERE's the mids, WHERE'S THE MIDS?? Wired out of phase, not enough of it, goes on and on.
I really think the last 10 years, have made the most progress in understanding WHY cables sound different, I just don't understand WHY most folks buy into the more you spend, the better it has to be.
I'm sure the big BIG dollar stuff, is better for some, gotta justify a 1500.00 1 meter, single run IC somehow, I just can't.
1500.00 in room treatment, clean VAC, EAR CLEANING goes a lot further in my book. DIY and spend a 1/3 -1/2 less or get twice as much and do a second or third system. I have a system, I spent less than 550.00 total used parts (some new) Mind blowing results. I paid no more than 100.00 per part, and it has a 5 + thousand dollar sound...It's the space their in, and KNOWING it, more than anything...
Welcome to my world, grasshopper. By the way, I urge you to consider adding a new embedding: you can call it information fields, mind-matter interaction or extra-sensory perception, as I use those terms interchangeably for the purposes of the discussion of sound and it’s perception. I am channeling Peter Belt as we speak and to a lesser extent Good old Rupert Sheldrake, who never really got on board the whole audiophile train 🚂 He was more interested in how dogs sense when their owners are returning home. Also, I’m not sure which embedding the CD fluttering belongs in, maybe that’s a new embedding. And the scattered CD laser LIGHT could be a new embedding too. Magnetic fields might be a new one too. Finally, save an embedding for good old Quantum Mechanics. This should be a separate embedding, more things are wrought by Quantum Mechanics than this world dreams of. 🤗 And wire directionality 🔛 should have its own place in the scheme of things.
I am astounded that most people dont know that any audio changes in sound is not only system dependant relating to some particular electronic components, but way more related to the 4 grids where an audio system is embedded ...
Then any affirmation of some changes, positives or negatives, is not here to be doubted and mocked or to be trusted, it is only an indication of a possible way to improve something in some particular audio system....The fact that we hear it ourselves or not has nothing to do most of the times with his reality for some ears other than our owns.... My best....
no ranter here but if you really can’t hear a meaningful difference in the AQ example i used be happy....but i strongly believe you will prefer one or the other. i don’t know the math but the two metals sound very different. i would expect the same with kimber among many that others that offer the two different metals. if you’ve never compared the two in your own system an opinion would simply be speculative.
Reports that say that something hasn’t happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don’t know we don’t know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.
Donald Rumsfeld.
This is why, read the above. NO sense at all.
WOW Donald Rumsfeld, that guy couldn't tell the truth NO MATTER what it was. One of the biggest ASSHOL?S that ever lived. Tricky Dick C. I loved that deceptive , underhanded, VP. He was one of the most influential VP that ever stayed in the VP chair..POWERFUL man. (actually Elvis don't tell). He was GREATLY misunderstood, with JAW Dropping results during his reign, Vice King Cheney. LOL
The interconnect, couldn't tell ya, never used um'. Silver clad copper, though. OUCH!! My ears are closing up as I read. BRIGHT, blistering boiling, sizzling, comes to mind...Good silver, no clad, not a lot of difference, with my round speaker setups. Planars more so..
"
If you are going to use overreaching exclamatory words like "greatly,"
why not just use my favorite that I see on this forum: "Jaw-dropping!"
" Yes and show us the curves you measured the jaw dropping new results with. You can't measure it and show a difference before and after it becomes just another urban golden ear legend. Self validation with no evidence to support anything other than you said so. I think I might start a cable company. If you don't agree with my prices and aspersions to audio improvement you are, sadly, just lacking in discernment and ability to critically analyze the results I am telling you are there with no proof to support my premise.
"....any silver version of AQ’s interconnects vs the corresponding copper version will change the character of a system greatly."
Please! Greatly.....greatly? Perhaps there might be a subtle difference but it would be hardly audible; and that difference might not even be a pleasant change.
>>>>Oh, like you know. That’s so funny I almost forgot to laugh.
"....any silver version of AQ’s interconnects vs the corresponding copper version will change the character of a system greatly."
Please! Greatly.....greatly? Perhaps there might be a subtle difference but it would be hardly audible; and that difference might not even be a pleasant change.
If you are going to use overreaching exclamatory words like "greatly," why not just use my favorite that I see on this forum: "Jaw-dropping!"
fwiw i absolutely wish that cables made no difference but over 40 years of experience tells me differently. as a direct example i can testify with certainty that any silver version of AQ’s interconnects vs the corresponding copper version will change the character of a system greatly. anyone that really knows their gear will have a strong preference. power cords i don’t understand at all but i do here differences along the lines of brighter/darker etc. i tried an expensive revered power cable and actually preferrred one that retails for appx 1/4 of the expensive cable. i absolutely can’t explain it but it’s not in my head.
"Facts count for nothing. Science counts for nothing."
Well to play Devil's advocate, for centuries things once considered factual and things thought to have been proven by science have later been proven to be false, or at least not quite as true as it once seemed. So you can use those arguments if you like, but you never know.
This is what I love about high-end audio. Facts count for nothing. Science counts for nothing. If you imagine you hear something, then it must be true. Wires have "sound quality". Raise them off the floor and they have even more sound quality. The moon landing was staged. 9/11 was an inside job. Sandy Hook never happened. And we're all idiots.
My point was that it’s already been argued for decades, what’s left to argue..... The troll is the OP who's been around long enough to know exactly how these types of threads end up. He's just baiting people.
Methinks thou do protest too much. If frustrated by the subject of the thread, why are you even participating in it?
And there is the "troll" word again. Name calling that happens when one disagrees but can neither articulate nor prove his point.
dynaquest4 "I’m sure the OP is glad he was able to provide you with a moment of enjoyable humor. That said, did you have a point that would make your post worth the effort and provide a view other than sarcasm?"
I did make a point. My point was that it’s already been argued for decades, what’s left to argue. Christ, why not just search for the other hundred threads already on here and just add to one of them instead of starting a new thread that ends up the same as all the old ones. I'm not the troll here. The troll is the OP who's been around long enough to know exactly how these types of threads end up. He's just baiting people.
the op is correct that some of the descriptions of cables and components are simply ridiculous and are an embarrassment to the hobby. however in my personal experience a simple demonstration of cable audio differences is easy. Listen to an Audioquest silver cable and the corresponding copper cable. If the listener can’t hear the difference he/she are bose material. i’m not sure that there’s a scientific explanation. There are thousands of such examples but the language used to describe said differences can be nonsensical.
It is a direct refutation of the insanity that $$$$$$$ can overwhelm the rigors of science and provide golden ears with heretofore unknown levels of audio nirvana. The absurdity of it all never seems to go away so in that regard you are 100% right. Do try to keep up with the OP's intent..
Always cracks me up when a guy like the OP brings up a subject that has already been argued for decades like they’re the first ones to ever think of it
I'm sure the OP is glad he was able to provide you with a moment of enjoyable humor. That said, did you have a point that would make your post worth the effort and provide a view other than sarcasm?
Always cracks me up when a guy like the OP brings up a subject that has already been argued for decades like they’re the first ones to ever think of it :^ /
I going down this path once again except with USB cables from server to a converter reclocker taking care of any ground loops and other noise then out using 12s to my dac. The focus will be on USB and I just ordered ,as wire goes , a fairly inexpensive USB cable from Audiogon member GrannyRing designer and fabricator of his own line of cables . Along with GrannyRings popular bang for buck cable I’ll also will be trying out Curious Cables new USB cable including one other at 4 times the cost.
"
When it comes to digital cables, the cheapest ones that are not defective work EXACTLY the same as the most expensive ones you can buy. I have been on this horse before, but a digital signal is just data until it gets to your DAC. Anyone who knows how data transfer protocols work knows that even a marginal cable can deliver 100% accurate data. "
"after listened different cables: The differences are so small that I can’t even repeat my own blind test picks. So I just buy decent entry level cables( low hundreds) and spend my money on speakers, electronics, and source."
Same advice goes for bitrates in my case, but mastering definitely matters.
Earlier today I compared tracks from ’The Hollies 20 Greatest Hits’ (one of the very few recommended - unfutzed - early compilations of this1960s Manchester outfit).
Even with headphones I could not easily detect much difference between flac and 192kbps rips!
Yet a similar volume levelled comparison between the above mentioned CD and the similar ’The Hollies All the Hits and More : the Definitive Collection (1988)’ revealed clear, easy to distinguish sonic differences.
Despite what I’d read previously, mainly on the wonderful Steve Hoffman forum, I found myself preferring the latter. This CD transfer seemed to have a touch more (original vinyl-like) punch and energy.
Both versions sounded vastly preferable to my ears than the more modern sounding Ron Furmanek remastered and remixed effort ’The Hollies 30th Anniversary Collection’ 3CD set, from 1993.
BTW: I don't knock casual listeners. I am one sometimes. In the gym I listen to music streamed to my (not i) phone through Bluetooth headphones. Even in that mode, though, I am a little bit picky. I listen to CD quality FLAC files (from TIDAL) and when I buy a new phone I pay attention to the quality of the on board DAC (current phone LG G7) because I don't care to plug in an external one. My current Bluetooth headphones are Bose Soundsports. Definitely middle of the road IMO, but not bad for the price.
Glupson: What exactly are "serious listeners"? These days, it may be iPhone with AirPods Pro. Check the numbers of those sold and compare to the number of turntables, or records, sold. Those are some serious discrepancies, I am afraid.
People listening to MP3s on their iPhone through AirPods are casual listeners. For the most part, they would tell you so. Your (unsited) statistics if correct (they probably are) would just prove there are more casual listeners than serious listeners among the general public. I don’t think anyone on this forum would disagree.
I am 100% in agreement with mahlman (and Dr. AIX -- IBM Unix?) Damaged or defective power, speaker and interconnect cables can certainly produce audible artifacts. But once you have eliminated actual defects the law of diminishing returns comes crashing in pretty fast IMO. Especially if your cables are of a similar quality to those used to make the recording. A great point, I say.
When it comes to digital cables, the cheapest ones that are not defective work EXACTLY the same as the most expensive ones you can buy. I have been on this horse before, but a digital signal is just data until it gets to your DAC. Anyone who knows how data transfer protocols work knows that even a marginal cable can deliver 100% accurate data. That is because the protocol checks the received data for consistency and asks for a new copy if it fails. While it is possible for bad data to pass as good, it is EXTREMELY rare. If you do get bad data or your cable is so poor that repeated transmissions cannot fix the error, the difference is NOT SUBTLE. Your tin eared grandfather will notice right away.
I am not certain where it makes sense to draw the line on analog cables, but if there is anyone interested in digital cables costing more than $50 for a 10 foot run: I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I would like to sell you.(For less than the cost of an audiophile power cord :) )
after listened different cables: The differences are so small that I can’t even repeat my own blind test picks. So I just buy decent entry level cables( low hundreds) and spend my money on speakers, electronics, and source.
Great results with four Baby Promethean Mini Isolator springs.
They are between the underside of a Schumann Resonator and small granite blocks. Really demonstrates how vibration control is important to manage. Nice to just put the springs in place and forget about them.
Fo.Q tape is another winner. A small piece accomplishes a lot.
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