So how much do you think the placebo effect impacts our listening preferences?
My hypothesis is that for ~%97 of us, the more a headphone costs the more we will enjoy the headphone.
My secondary hypothesis is that the more I told consumers a headset cost, the more they would enjoy the phones. i.e. a $30 headphone < $300 headphone < $3,000 headphones <<< $30,000 headphones.
I’m willing to bet that if I put the kph 30i drivers in the focal utopia’s chassis and told participants in this fake study that the phones cost $4k.... Everyone except for the 3%ers would never guess something was up. The remaining 97% would have no clue and report that it was the best set they ever heard.
Then if I gave them the kph30i and explained it was $30. 97% of people would crap on them after hearing the same driver in a different chassis.
My ultimate hypothesis is that build quality and price are the two most important factors in determining if people will enjoy a set of headphones. This how I rationalize the HD8XX getting crap on when only 3 people have heard it and publicly provided their opinion lol. "It’s a cheaper 800s, of course it’s going to sound worse!"
@mahgister, "Headphones and speakers present sounds with different results for sure..." Finally something we can all agree on, I hope. For the past few years I’ve been trying to find a neutral pair of headphones exclusively for monitoring purposes and comparing various masterings. After reading around various sites (Head-Fi, Ken Rockwell etc) I eventually narrowed it down to around 5/6 candidates including the Sennheiser HD600s, Audio-Technica ATH50Xs, Beyer Dynamic DT880s, or the Sony MDR 7506s. Rather surprisingly, after a fair bit of reading, it became clear that none of these tried and tested designs had a ruler flat frequency response. In the end I decided upon the Sony’s as they seemed to be the closest to truly flat. Their minor aberration was claimed to be a slightly elevated mid treble response which is said to be of great help in detecting any potential issues in the all important presence band, I think. Perhaps there is a good reason after all for why they have remained a largely unchanged industry favourite for quite a few decades now. However, the surprises didn’t end there. I later read on Sound on Sound website that although most mastering engineers do use headphones for mixing or mastering, in practice they still prefer to use loudspeakers. I can’t remember the reason given, but I think it was claimed that loudspeakers gave a more predictable result. So, given the differences between headphones and even monitoring loudspeakers, it’s hardly a surprise that audio’s notorious circle of confusion as described by Toole, Olive etc continues to this day, is it? Without any commonly recognised worldwide industry references, it also looks like it might remain with us for some time yet. Yes, the truth might well be out there, but finding it seems to be quite another matter. https://www.soundonsound.com/mastering https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html?m=1 |
@mahgister I just looked at your system.Dont kill my message with an underlining of superficial appearance... I can create a very powerful Helmholtz resonators grid with discarded toilet paper rolls...i did in fact... Acoustic dont need costly materials but knowledge and ratios and experiments...Same thing for mechanical vibrations controls....You can buy many thousands bucks products or create something equivalent almost at very low cost...I did it with cheap materials but no tin foil... I dont let myself to be fooled by advertising of costly products now... And keep your free mockery.... The last smile is for me.... My system cost is bananas my friend....And my Sound quality/price ratio exceed or rival yours probably at no cost then.... i will keep my tin foil....Keep your headphones... By the way i presented facts and arguments politely to you in my last posts, i never attack you.... I dont like to be answered by FREE mockery... « Sarcasm is sometimes a compensation for some dysfunctional physiological apparatus, the brain or some appendage, pick your choice»- Groucho Marx 🤓 |
@mahgister loudspeaker systems give a different presentation than headphone systems. I don’t believe that one, regardless of equipment used or set up, is it necessarily better or worse than the other. Like I said, they are different presentations altogether.Headphones and speakers present sounds with different results for sure... Like our friend mastering92 just said: However, the 6db rule applies whereby headphones cannot perfectly recreate bass frequencies due to the limited size and mass of their respective transducers. However, textural resolve, attack, decay, and the overall styling of the bass is far more important (and they can do each of these things well). Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room.But it is NOT only about the superior rendrering of bass frequencies... In a room you can mimic the 3 dimension spatiality of the sound... None of my 7 headphones never did it like my room/speakers... In acoustic there is a concept which is very important: The relation between the "listener envelopment" (LEV) and the "source width" (ASW)... the relation between these 2 factors is related to the timing of back and front reflections and the general ratio of their timing in relation to side direction... Also we can acoustically control with Helmholtz resonators of different size the first frontwaves coming from each speakers and differentiate them for each ears.... Only these factors i just mentioned are impossible to control with headphones drivers and shell limitations and size... This is the reason why they all sound "artificial" in relation to a good speakers/room settings.... Not only the bass....but we dont perceive it to be artificial if we compare them to a non controlled speakers/room system for sure... on the contrary 8 years ago i weas convinced that my speakers will never beat a good headphone... And the point where headphones seems to crush my speakers/room could be some details.... BUT details without 3D immersion in a space volume and only in a 2D space are unrealalistic and unnatural and without life compared to the room/speakers... I was in love with my 2 Stax Headphone system, the Sr5 and the Lambda.... My hybrid was very good .... But ALL my headphones were different and each one were lacking on a factor or an another one relatively and compared to the other headphones.... My room/speakers under controls never give me a detail without the whole....nor a 2D sound only in front of my head or only between my ears.... My room/speakers, in relation with the recording quality i use for sure, give me a sound where i am among the players or where some players are beside me and not in front or behind the speakers only or only between them...( it is relative to the recording initial process a bad recording cannot deliver that for sure to begin with) My speakers/room as imperfect as it is now, is SUPERIOR on all counts... Because each factor is LINKED to the others in a BALANCED way which none of my headphones were ever able to delivers... Then the apparent more detailed presentation of some aspects of the sound, which 8 years ago convince me of the superiority of headphones, was only a manifestation of the defect of my room/speakers settings at this time....In a non controlled room, headphones, any of them, are more detailed or seems to be...But they never are more livelier than a good speakers/room system... And the Timbre experience is unnatural in most headphones anyway compared to a room/speakers rightly done because of the limitations of their enclosure and drivers... I am not a scientist and even not an audio mature expert... But i have my own journey.... A 500 bucks system can be more than good.... If each piece is well chosen and if the three working dimensional embeddings, mechanical, electrical and acoustical are minimally controlled.... No system i had listen to in my life even better one than mine completely crush mine.... The reason: a balance between all acoustical factors in play are realized.... Then i am behind all superior costly audio systems but way less behind than people could imagine, even me.... In audio my system is very good in the scale price/sound quality ratio.... After all when the piano is in my room in 3D not behind or between the speakers with a good recording what i can ask for more? A more perfect system will cost me between 12,000 and 16,000 bucks...I know what i could buy to beat each single piece of my gear.... The speakers cost is the more difficult choice by the way... I dont need it.... I prefer to surprize my children with my 500 bucks incredible system... I forgot an important point... My room /speakers system give me 2 different experiences... One is more like an headphone listening but 3D with sounds coming sometimes around my head ... The near listening field at 3 feet of my speakers on my desk... The regular position in my small room of 13 feet 1/2 square is at 8 feet from the speakers....And there the sound is more realistic and seems a bit less detailed but it is an illusion...The details are there but more realistically linked to the whole of the sound... In near listening field All my headphones are crushed on all counts... In regular listening fields the apparent lack of details is an illusion, the details are there but in a more natural way ... Here regular listening position my speakers dont beat the headphones on each of the acoustical count to be compared like in near listening position, they introduce a completely new sound presentation that none of my headphones were able to do deliver.... Also bear in mind that a SMALL room is not a big room....And the controls of a small room is more difficult but can deliver possibilities less easy to reach and way more costly to reach in a 20 feet room...It is linked to the timing ratio of the wavefront of each speakers and the reverberation time which we can use more easily in a small room... |
Headphones and speakers are just different. In terms of raw performance (value for the money) headphones are going to outclass speakers. Building an accurate headphone is easier for a manufacturer to get right - Since headphones have miniature driver units. On the same token, many unique materials can be used in headphone driver units and this will influence how they sound. Some really good headphones - Sony M1ST - Focal Utopia - Focal Clear Professional MG - STAX 009/009S - Sennheiser HD800S (and closed iteration) With these headphones or comparable flagships, it is possible to reach incredible heights in terms of accuracy. However, the 6db rule applies whereby headphones cannot perfectly recreate bass frequencies due to the limited size and mass of their respective transducers. However, textural resolve, attack, decay, and the overall styling of the bass is far more important (and they can do each of these things well). Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room. |
@mahgister loudspeaker systems give a different presentation than headphone systems. I don’t believe that one, regardless of equipment used or set up, is it necessarily better or worse than the other. Like I said, they are different presentations altogether. It all depends what you’re into. There are people who simply don’t enjoy listening to loudspeaker systems because their headphones give them more of a certain experience they’re looking for, and vice versa. In the end, it’s horses for courses, so to speak. My opinions on headphones were precisely that, my opinions. Your opinion may vary. |
true story: when i got my new-to-me well tempered labs turntable a few years ago, i pinged mike pranka at toffco (wtl usa importer) to send me a fresh platter mat as the old one got damping fluid spilt on it during shipment mike said yes, he found one in his possession -- i then said, cool mike, so how much should i pay you being the total prince he is, he said, nah, this is an extra i have here, you got it man, no charge, gimme your address again i said, hey mike you are great, but you gotta let me pay you a couple hundred for it, cuz it’ll sound alot better to me when i use it!!! he says, well, hell if we are going down that road, send me a grand!!! 😂😂😂😂😂 |
Headphones = less headache. I understand that you can doctor and Taylor the sound to your liking when you deal with a loudspeaker system with room acoustics and speaker placement and swapping cables, etc.You are wrong... Acoustic is a science and it is not NECESSARY to buy costly acoustical product AT ALL....My own acoustical treatment and devices for acoustical controls cost me long time experiments but no money... You are right about one thing it is simpler to use headphone than upgrading toward costly gear each year hoping to replace acoustical control, mechanical control and electrical noise floor control with new gear and always ending inevitably in frustration because we dont know that no system can be good in a bad room in an uncontrolled vibrating location and in a noisy electrical grid... But if you had read me my 500 bucks audio system beat my 7 various headphones... the reason is embeddings controls of my system at NO COST.... Then if people chase their tail it is because most people are conditioned by the marketing ploy to upgrade and not informed on acoustic nor on simple science... I apologize if my post seems rude... My best to you.... |
Headphones = less headache. I understand that you can doctor and Taylor the sound to your liking when you deal with a loudspeaker system with room acoustics and speaker placement and swapping cables, etc. However, the money required to get it right is vastly greater than the money spent on a good headphone system. In my opinion, you definitely get more bang for your buck with a quality headphone system. I’ve chased the dragon with loud speakers for 25 years. Spent tens of thousands of dollars in the process. I put together my headphone system in just a few purchases and relatively speaking, not that much money spent. It’s gotten me more enjoyment with less money spent and less time invested than the loudspeaker systems I’ve had over 25 years. But that’s me. I’m just giving my experience. I’m sure many people disagree. |
I love a good audio placebo effect - especially if it's cheap. I know I'm susceptible to my audio perception being amazingly transformed simply by being told something about the sound source or given a suggestion of what I should be hearing. Ever hear those evil rock 'n roll records played backwards before someone tells you what the devil's words are supposed to be? I never can make out a single word until I'm told what the words are supposed to be, and then I hear them suddenly very clearly, and can't unhear them. Also, what I'm looking at makes a big difference for me. If I can see that I'm in a wide open space I hear more spaciousness, even when I'm wearing headphones. Walking at night with headphones can be amazing. Audio is lacking in information, forcing our brains to make up what's not actually detected by inference from other senses. Just like the spinning ballerina silhouette illusion - I can't determine which way she is spinning with the information given, but my mind makes a decision in ways I know not and it's very difficult at that point for me to envision her spinning the other way. People talk about depth and layering in audio. With our visual system we actually have depth detection from both triangulation and shifts with small head motions, as well as comparing relative sizes of know objects at a distance. With sound it's not nearly as precise, and what one person perceives from a pair of speakers as depth and layering another person with perfectly good hearing may perceive as something less good. There's a lot of corrective imagining going on to create the effect of audible depth because what is actually reaching your ears is significantly different than what a real signal at the perceived distance would be. I used to say you have to mentally cross your ears correctly to hear the effect, like those picture books with the repeating patterns. If you get your eyes set correctly you'll "see" the 3D shape. If you do it wrong everything will be perceived as inverted, quite awkward and unnatural, but you'll still see the shape of the teapot or whatever. I know the same can happen for me with audio, and a depth effect can be created with some equalization effects. This sounds very bad though if my brain refuses to decode it as depth. Instead I just get strange tone from a sound source that I'm perceiving as being closer to me. |
He is no more wrong that those who think that all audiophile impressions are pure subjectives impressions to be eliminated... Reality is more complex than what those who argue here one against the others think... I never negate myself the pervasing presence of biases positive or negative one, biases to be eliminated and biases to be cultivated... I never put all the eggs of my audio basket in the engineering design upgrade market either.... i looked for ways to embed any system with science at hand or in some cases without any science available to me, but only my ears, in strings of CUMULATIVE listening experiments... Call that an audio journey... Then i prefer Millercarbon "alleged" ignorance to the "alleged" knowledgeable believer in engineering design power only, with their systematic blindtests, they never used anyway save in shows and arguments... I dont need systematic blind test to tune my room nor to eliminate vibrations and to control the electrical noise floor...Simple informal occasional accidental or implemented blindtest of my own will do it....At no cost.... |
“So how much do you think the placebo effect impacts our listening preferences?" Pretty much totally. Only Miller thinks he is totally objective. And he is wrong. He denies the results of many many scientific experiments. But then he denies science most of the time anyway. He believes what arrives in his brain from his ears is always the totally objective truth and nothing else is relevant. He is wrong. |
The room/speaker factor is the single most difficult thing in a loudspeaker system to get correct. Room dimensions, reflection points, nulls, etc. This is the single greatest headache of getting a loudspeaker system correct, in my opinion.You are right the room/speakers is the most difficult thing to get corrected FOR SURE.... BUT when you start with an empty room the road is LONG and the POSSIBILITIES in acoustic controls HUGE... Then the difference between your room BEFORE acoustic treatment and controls and AFTER it, is nothing less than COLOSSAL....If rightly done and remember that passive treatment in general dont replace active control with Helmholtz method.... When you buy an headphone if you mod it, damp it, anyway possible the difference between before and after are relatively big sometimes NEVER colossal... Because you are stuck with the acoustical properties of the shell chosen by the designer... The room enclosure by contrast is malleable like an acoustical clay.... Give me a room i will recreate it at no cost....I know how now... my headphones i modded all of them the seven with success....But no comparison between them and the COLOSSAL potential of the speakers/room SQ...They all sleep in my drawer now... 2 dynamic 2 electroacoustic, 2 magneplanar, one hybrid...I begin my audio journey 8 years ago or 9 with many headphones because i was flabbergasted by the improvement in S.Q. compared to my speakers/room untreated and uncontrolled... Is it clearer? It will take very serious headphones to beat my 500 bucks system room now...none of my 7 one could do it....Even improved by mechanical and acoustical controls.... I dont want to pay 6 thousand dollars for a dedicated headphones system to be relatively on par with my room even if possible but it is not.....Save perhaps the more costly one i dont know.... |
@mahgister "It is more easy to control the room/speakers relation than the ready made shell box and the limitations of any headphones." WWWWWWWWWHAT??? The room/speaker factor is the single most difficult thing in a loudspeaker system to get correct. Room dimensions, reflection points, nulls, etc. This is the single greatest headache of getting a loudspeaker system correct, in my opinion. With headphones, you don't have to worry about any of that. Please clarify because I'm having a hard time trying to make heads or tails of what you said. |
I am man enough to admit when I was wrong. The placebo effect is in fact very real. In fact, the placebo effect is so powerful that last night it transported me from Bo Derek’s place to Bo Jackson’s. Could almost swear I caught a glimpse of Bo Peep just before the effect wore off. Jackson I must say is holding up better. |
Placebo effect play full range when people stay " passive" consumers... Placebo effect is under the spell and control of "active" players BECAUSE They experiment with their listening and gear...They TEST the placebos....No need to use James Randi Blind test.... Any simple blind test will do.... Money means way less than people think in audio and placebo is neutralized easily in mechanical, electrical and acoustic experiments and embeddings controls.... Biases are not only negative influences to be eliminated they can be also a positive teacher to be used all along the RIGHT path for the ears and mind.... Call that a self education... For headphones, i scrap all my 7 headphones ( magneplanar, electrostatic, dynamic and hybrid) for my 500 bucks rightfully embedded system at low cost because they cannot hold a candle to it....Then placebo with headphones? No more....It is more easy to control the room/speakers relation than the ready made shell box and the limitations of any headphones... People dont learn to trust themselves, they trust money and reviews.... |
@asctim, "From what I’ve heard about pain killing placebos is that they don’t actually work when measuring pain objectively - which is usually done with a range of motion test. A person on a placebo will say they feel better and the pain is less bothersome, but when they are asked to lift their arm up, as in the case of shoulder pain, they can’t actually lift it any higher. With a real pain killer they can - although maybe they shouldn’t!" Good point. The placebo effect seems to have no objective foundation on reality and appears be almost entirely generated within the mind of the subject. That’s why there are regulations that all stage hypnotists are required to adhere to. The world of the subconscious mind still remains largely unexplored and mysterious over a 100 years after Freud drew our attention to it. However you can bet your bottom dollar that all kinds of folk, all the way from government research and law enforcement agencies to vast international marketing and advertising departments are all deeply interested in its workings. Oh what big eyes you have grandma! The better to help you spend your money my dear! |
I actually own the Focal Utopia headphones. I have to tell you - you are paying for beryllium (a very toxic metal) to be properly implemented inside a headphone. Why? Performance characteristics. Focal and TAD both use beryllium; getting it right isn't an easy task. You are also paying for carbon fiber yokes, higher than average build quality, lambskin earpads, and a cool factor/design. Are they worth the money? YES. Focal replaced my busted drivers free of charge. How do they sound? The transducers make all the difference. You simply can't compare flagship/studio grade driver units in headphones to substandard "consumer grade" celebrity headphones. However, I think what you're saying is that the general population (most people don't care about audio as a hobby) wouldn't be able to tell a difference 🤔 That's because they do not care. |
As with anything, sound is a preference. What sounds good to you should be what you buy. Some prefer lots of bass, some midrange and some treble. I do believe people think they hear things because of price or name brand. It would be better if the cost wasn’t shown before you decide. That would never happen. |
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This issue is all about insecurity and lack of self confidence.If you go the right direction, it will go away. But it needs work, and trust in yourself. I noticed that many audiophiles who are in the middle / early stages of their audio road try to use cost as a pointer to quality. When you are trying to figure out what you hear, and what makes a "better" sounding gear better... at this stage people have no CONFIDENCE in them yet, because they do not have enough experience to gauge the sound. All you can tell at this point is whether you like something or not. Maybe not even that! And, frankly, most stereo has so may flaws, that we cannot call an upgrade as having better sound, because there are more weaknesses surfacing as well. When you develop skills, you are comfortable navigating the waters of audio, it's when the habit to check for prices goes away. People don't realize that refined gear is just half of the story. It's you who has to step up, develop hearing, and SELF CONFIDENCE. Measuring equipment excel at analyzing SIMPLE signals (sine or square waves), and they absolutely FAIL to analyze complex signals (music). Brain works the other way around - we are generally clueless listening to pure sine waves (which never occur in nature), yet we can tell tiny variances in a complex music. Dedicate yourself to improve and develop. Trust in Yourself.Without that, audio is just a waste of money & time. |
Funny millercarbon . I've been enjoying the hell out of my $1,600 HiFiman Arya headphones. Out of curiosity, I purchased the $3,000 Focal Stellia with a return policy. I went back and forth for one month with these headphones. Honestly, I had to coach myself to not fall head over heels for the Stellia because of their build quality and aesthetic and reputation. To me, they are gorgeous. Aesthetically they are way more beautiful than my bland and boring Arya. The build quality also easily beats out the Arya. So going into this shootout, I had a subconscious bias towards preferring the Stellia. I WANTED them to win. I wanted something just to look at while I wasn't listening to music just so I can gush over this gorgeous headphone. However, at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. I much preferred the Aryas sonics to the Stellia. I also much preferred the comfort of the Arya. I returned the Stellia. Not because of the price. Price was irrelevant to me. I wanted something that sounded good and I enjoyed wearing. |
My favorite is to mix real pain killers with alcohol. Get drunk enough and your expectation bias goes sky high! The trick is to get the Amazon drone to deliver while you still have a full placebo effect buzz on. Eventually of course you will barf up a steaming pile of buyer's remorse. No problem! Keep drinking! When you go from blind drunk to double-blind drunk then order a DSP and with a push of a button calculate your BAC and be glad you did this all from home. Pop quiz: how may audiophile cliches can you find there? |
From what I've heard about pain killing placebos is that they don't actually work when measuring pain objectively - which is usually done with a range of motion test. A person on a placebo will say they feel better and the pain is less bothersome, but when they are asked to lift their arm up, as in the case of shoulder pain, they can't actually lift it any higher. With a real pain killer they can - although maybe they shouldn't! |
@philbarone, "Some people just feel safer paying more." Particularly it would seem musicians. Didn’t Joshua Bell pay some astronomical sum of money for his Stradivarius, yet other violins are often preferred in blind listening tests? To be fair to Bell his Strad is likely to be a great investment and if it makes him feel better.. why not just as long as neither he or we insist it sounds better? I’ve long given up suggesting to my sister and daughter that more expensive doesn’t always mean better, but their argument is they don’t have the time or the inclination to do any research. So they tend to go on price, as is suggested more or less everywhere you look these days. As you say, "It’s funny though, I used to do blindfold tests in an effort to enlighten someone to certain things and when proven wrong they’d go into denial mode and insist they were right even after I had just disproved them wrong." That’s people for you, and don’t the marketers know it. Apple seem to be the masters of this image projection. I know quite a few people who will immediately upgrade to the new iPhone 13 in a few months without thinking. I already know it would be a waste of time suggesting to them that my Xiaomi (OLED, 2 speakers, 5000 mAh battery etc) at a quarter of the price might be a better buy. @cleeds, One of my colleagues has been telling me for years that her husband Eric is so scared of needles he’s even prepared to have fillings without anaesthetic! The best I ever managed was to have a deep clean and, despite the blood and pain, the proximity of the attractive dentist plus some some self induced placebo got me through. I definitely would not try it with any drilling involved but I can believe others may be able to. The words 'root canal' still fill me with fear. Of course it’s well known that under extreme duress people have been known to perform feats far outside their normal capabilities. The power of placebo should not be casually dismissed. Even politicians understand it and use it accordingly. Let’s face it, it’s everywhere and so familiar that eliminating its effect is far from easy. Did someone happen to mention blind listening tests? Or are we all too scared of risking invoking cognitive dissonance? Red pill or blue pill? Which one do you prefer? Just how much truth can you handle right now? Tough questions in tough times. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill |
rols I mean, people have been operated on without anaesthetic and not felt pain thanks to placebo ...That sounds extremely doubtful unless other techniques were used, such as this. Otherwise, it would be an unconscionable experiment. |
Think the parallel would be expectation bias. Certainly price has a lot to “expect”. I believe that within the line of any Audio company the price dictates the SQ. Considering diminishing returns. And, mostly, being able to point out a sweet spot. But comparing similar products at various prices of different companies SQ frequently does not jive with price. And when listening to SQ of a particular piece it is best to listen then replace it with the previous piece. If you miss the SQ of the new piece then you are sure of the improvement… unless so obviously better you don’t want to even go back. |
Whoa, brave question, but I am glad you raised it. I used to work in the Pharma industry and know that the placebo effect can have a big effect on what you perceive. I mean, people have been operated on without anaesthetic and not felt pain thanks to placebo. I have been tested myself and honestly reported experiences that subsequent video evidence showed me did not happen, even though I clearly remember it. Our preconceived notions affect what we sense. Placebo is everywhere, making us unreliable witnesses; so placebo must be a factor in audio, like it or not. It's something we have to deal with, watch out for. I try to manage myself, but it is tough. Some examples: A few of times I have gone into a headphone store, and just gone down the line, sticking on 'phones, coming to snap, completely unfair, opinions. When I find one that sounds nice, I think, oooo nice, and look at the sticker and usually find it's the dang most expensive pair on display. Maybe my brain is quietly figuring out brands, and position in the line up, or the build quality, so I can't be sure if they really sound better. But to me, they do. Certainly with wine I can spot a nice wine from a poor one, even if I can't see the labels. When I bough my first proper record player (back in the day) I went in asking to hear a Linn and the guy spent 2 hours playing us (I had brought a wingman) various decks, which I could not see, but were all similar price. Both of us had a strong preference for one. I bought it never having seen it during the demo or knowing anything about the company or ever having read a review. So I sort of managed placebo there. I have a little personal HiFi scale. 1) I notice a big improvement, and so does my partner, even though I try not to let on that I have been fiddling or buying gear. 2) I notice some improvement and my other half does not immediately, but does start saying things like "sounding nice tonight" or some sort of complement. 3) She notices nothing and I think I do but am not sure. Placebo is lurking in level 3, and maybe level 2. Examples of level 1 improvement: replacing a small cheap amp with a KSA Krell. Of level 2: cartridges, DACs Of level 1: cables (sorry). I have strong opinions about cables, but I accept that placebo might be playing a role in what I hear. Don't kill me. |
Hello, This is ridiculous, so vague! Maybe I am part of the problem for responding. As we talked about before there are some newcomers and new people to AGon or being an audiophile who read this. Then they believe that a basic headphone sounds the same as a $3000 headphone. It’s doesn’t! I’m not even a headphone person but I do know about the sound differences of products. The only thing I will agree with is the laws of diminishing returns. The less people buy of something or the more it costs to make the more it’s going cost to buy due to proprietary parts. How many people can afford six figure Wilson’s compared to how many can afford Tekton speakers. A 42” plasma used to cost $20,000. Now they fill our dumps. I know this is my opinion. If any new people need to learn about products or have good questions to help build your system please ask away. Most are hear to help. Also, if your are going to post. At least read and respond to the posts. Why drop a ridiculous comment and walk away when you are the OP. Most see my posts and I try to help anyone who asks on and off the forum and others do the same for me. So when I leave a post like this it’s a big deal. |
If you know what you hear, you know what you hear. Only if you don't, then you can make excuses and dress them up with fancy pseudo-sciency names like placebo effect. To hide the sad fact you don't know what you heard. It really is that simple. Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier (and more honest) to just admit you don't hear anything? |
I've been making mouthpieces for saxophones going on forty years and if I had the time and energy I could tell you some unbelievable stories of the mind tricks I've played on sax players and top level ones to boot. It's funny though, I used to do blindfold tests in an effort to enlighten someone to certain things and when proven wrong they'd go into denial mode and insist they were right even after I had just disproved them wrong. Some people just feel safer paying more. |
