This is why my ICs cost $10. I haven't found anything better under $500.
So how much do you think the placebo effect impacts our listening preferences?
My hypothesis is that for ~%97 of us, the more a headphone costs the more we will enjoy the headphone.
My secondary hypothesis is that the more I told consumers a headset cost, the more they would enjoy the phones. i.e. a $30 headphone < $300 headphone < $3,000 headphones <<< $30,000 headphones.
I’m willing to bet that if I put the kph 30i drivers in the focal utopia’s chassis and told participants in this fake study that the phones cost $4k.... Everyone except for the 3%ers would never guess something was up. The remaining 97% would have no clue and report that it was the best set they ever heard.
Then if I gave them the kph30i and explained it was $30. 97% of people would crap on them after hearing the same driver in a different chassis.
My ultimate hypothesis is that build quality and price are the two most important factors in determining if people will enjoy a set of headphones. This how I rationalize the HD8XX getting crap on when only 3 people have heard it and publicly provided their opinion lol. "It’s a cheaper 800s, of course it’s going to sound worse!"
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Headphones = less headache. I understand that you can doctor and Taylor the sound to your liking when you deal with a loudspeaker system with room acoustics and speaker placement and swapping cables, etc.You are wrong... Acoustic is a science and it is not NECESSARY to buy costly acoustical product AT ALL....My own acoustical treatment and devices for acoustical controls cost me long time experiments but no money... You are right about one thing it is simpler to use headphone than upgrading toward costly gear each year hoping to replace acoustical control, mechanical control and electrical noise floor control with new gear and always ending inevitably in frustration because we dont know that no system can be good in a bad room in an uncontrolled vibrating location and in a noisy electrical grid... But if you had read me my 500 bucks audio system beat my 7 various headphones... the reason is embeddings controls of my system at NO COST.... Then if people chase their tail it is because most people are conditioned by the marketing ploy to upgrade and not informed on acoustic nor on simple science... I apologize if my post seems rude... My best to you.... |
true story: when i got my new-to-me well tempered labs turntable a few years ago, i pinged mike pranka at toffco (wtl usa importer) to send me a fresh platter mat as the old one got damping fluid spilt on it during shipment mike said yes, he found one in his possession -- i then said, cool mike, so how much should i pay you being the total prince he is, he said, nah, this is an extra i have here, you got it man, no charge, gimme your address again i said, hey mike you are great, but you gotta let me pay you a couple hundred for it, cuz it’ll sound alot better to me when i use it!!! he says, well, hell if we are going down that road, send me a grand!!! 😂😂😂😂😂 |
@mahgister loudspeaker systems give a different presentation than headphone systems. I don’t believe that one, regardless of equipment used or set up, is it necessarily better or worse than the other. Like I said, they are different presentations altogether. It all depends what you’re into. There are people who simply don’t enjoy listening to loudspeaker systems because their headphones give them more of a certain experience they’re looking for, and vice versa. In the end, it’s horses for courses, so to speak. My opinions on headphones were precisely that, my opinions. Your opinion may vary. |
Headphones and speakers are just different. In terms of raw performance (value for the money) headphones are going to outclass speakers. Building an accurate headphone is easier for a manufacturer to get right - Since headphones have miniature driver units. On the same token, many unique materials can be used in headphone driver units and this will influence how they sound. Some really good headphones - Sony M1ST - Focal Utopia - Focal Clear Professional MG - STAX 009/009S - Sennheiser HD800S (and closed iteration) With these headphones or comparable flagships, it is possible to reach incredible heights in terms of accuracy. However, the 6db rule applies whereby headphones cannot perfectly recreate bass frequencies due to the limited size and mass of their respective transducers. However, textural resolve, attack, decay, and the overall styling of the bass is far more important (and they can do each of these things well). Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room. |
@mahgister loudspeaker systems give a different presentation than headphone systems. I don’t believe that one, regardless of equipment used or set up, is it necessarily better or worse than the other. Like I said, they are different presentations altogether.Headphones and speakers present sounds with different results for sure... Like our friend mastering92 just said: However, the 6db rule applies whereby headphones cannot perfectly recreate bass frequencies due to the limited size and mass of their respective transducers. However, textural resolve, attack, decay, and the overall styling of the bass is far more important (and they can do each of these things well). Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room.But it is NOT only about the superior rendrering of bass frequencies... In a room you can mimic the 3 dimension spatiality of the sound... None of my 7 headphones never did it like my room/speakers... In acoustic there is a concept which is very important: The relation between the "listener envelopment" (LEV) and the "source width" (ASW)... the relation between these 2 factors is related to the timing of back and front reflections and the general ratio of their timing in relation to side direction... Also we can acoustically control with Helmholtz resonators of different size the first frontwaves coming from each speakers and differentiate them for each ears.... Only these factors i just mentioned are impossible to control with headphones drivers and shell limitations and size... This is the reason why they all sound "artificial" in relation to a good speakers/room settings.... Not only the bass....but we dont perceive it to be artificial if we compare them to a non controlled speakers/room system for sure... on the contrary 8 years ago i weas convinced that my speakers will never beat a good headphone... And the point where headphones seems to crush my speakers/room could be some details.... BUT details without 3D immersion in a space volume and only in a 2D space are unrealalistic and unnatural and without life compared to the room/speakers... I was in love with my 2 Stax Headphone system, the Sr5 and the Lambda.... My hybrid was very good .... But ALL my headphones were different and each one were lacking on a factor or an another one relatively and compared to the other headphones.... My room/speakers under controls never give me a detail without the whole....nor a 2D sound only in front of my head or only between my ears.... My room/speakers, in relation with the recording quality i use for sure, give me a sound where i am among the players or where some players are beside me and not in front or behind the speakers only or only between them...( it is relative to the recording initial process a bad recording cannot deliver that for sure to begin with) My speakers/room as imperfect as it is now, is SUPERIOR on all counts... Because each factor is LINKED to the others in a BALANCED way which none of my headphones were ever able to delivers... Then the apparent more detailed presentation of some aspects of the sound, which 8 years ago convince me of the superiority of headphones, was only a manifestation of the defect of my room/speakers settings at this time....In a non controlled room, headphones, any of them, are more detailed or seems to be...But they never are more livelier than a good speakers/room system... And the Timbre experience is unnatural in most headphones anyway compared to a room/speakers rightly done because of the limitations of their enclosure and drivers... I am not a scientist and even not an audio mature expert... But i have my own journey.... A 500 bucks system can be more than good.... If each piece is well chosen and if the three working dimensional embeddings, mechanical, electrical and acoustical are minimally controlled.... No system i had listen to in my life even better one than mine completely crush mine.... The reason: a balance between all acoustical factors in play are realized.... Then i am behind all superior costly audio systems but way less behind than people could imagine, even me.... In audio my system is very good in the scale price/sound quality ratio.... After all when the piano is in my room in 3D not behind or between the speakers with a good recording what i can ask for more? A more perfect system will cost me between 12,000 and 16,000 bucks...I know what i could buy to beat each single piece of my gear.... The speakers cost is the more difficult choice by the way... I dont need it.... I prefer to surprize my children with my 500 bucks incredible system... I forgot an important point... My room /speakers system give me 2 different experiences... One is more like an headphone listening but 3D with sounds coming sometimes around my head ... The near listening field at 3 feet of my speakers on my desk... The regular position in my small room of 13 feet 1/2 square is at 8 feet from the speakers....And there the sound is more realistic and seems a bit less detailed but it is an illusion...The details are there but more realistically linked to the whole of the sound... In near listening field All my headphones are crushed on all counts... In regular listening fields the apparent lack of details is an illusion, the details are there but in a more natural way ... Here regular listening position my speakers dont beat the headphones on each of the acoustical count to be compared like in near listening position, they introduce a completely new sound presentation that none of my headphones were able to do deliver.... Also bear in mind that a SMALL room is not a big room....And the controls of a small room is more difficult but can deliver possibilities less easy to reach and way more costly to reach in a 20 feet room...It is linked to the timing ratio of the wavefront of each speakers and the reverberation time which we can use more easily in a small room... |
@mahgister I just looked at your system.Dont kill my message with an underlining of superficial appearance... I can create a very powerful Helmholtz resonators grid with discarded toilet paper rolls...i did in fact... Acoustic dont need costly materials but knowledge and ratios and experiments...Same thing for mechanical vibrations controls....You can buy many thousands bucks products or create something equivalent almost at very low cost...I did it with cheap materials but no tin foil... I dont let myself to be fooled by advertising of costly products now... And keep your free mockery.... The last smile is for me.... My system cost is bananas my friend....And my Sound quality/price ratio exceed or rival yours probably at no cost then.... i will keep my tin foil....Keep your headphones... By the way i presented facts and arguments politely to you in my last posts, i never attack you.... I dont like to be answered by FREE mockery... « Sarcasm is sometimes a compensation for some dysfunctional physiological apparatus, the brain or some appendage, pick your choice»- Groucho Marx 🤓 |
@mahgister, "Headphones and speakers present sounds with different results for sure..." Finally something we can all agree on, I hope. For the past few years I’ve been trying to find a neutral pair of headphones exclusively for monitoring purposes and comparing various masterings. After reading around various sites (Head-Fi, Ken Rockwell etc) I eventually narrowed it down to around 5/6 candidates including the Sennheiser HD600s, Audio-Technica ATH50Xs, Beyer Dynamic DT880s, or the Sony MDR 7506s. Rather surprisingly, after a fair bit of reading, it became clear that none of these tried and tested designs had a ruler flat frequency response. In the end I decided upon the Sony’s as they seemed to be the closest to truly flat. Their minor aberration was claimed to be a slightly elevated mid treble response which is said to be of great help in detecting any potential issues in the all important presence band, I think. Perhaps there is a good reason after all for why they have remained a largely unchanged industry favourite for quite a few decades now. However, the surprises didn’t end there. I later read on Sound on Sound website that although most mastering engineers do use headphones for mixing or mastering, in practice they still prefer to use loudspeakers. I can’t remember the reason given, but I think it was claimed that loudspeakers gave a more predictable result. So, given the differences between headphones and even monitoring loudspeakers, it’s hardly a surprise that audio’s notorious circle of confusion as described by Toole, Olive etc continues to this day, is it? Without any commonly recognised worldwide industry references, it also looks like it might remain with us for some time yet. Yes, the truth might well be out there, but finding it seems to be quite another matter. https://www.soundonsound.com/mastering https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html?m=1 |
Headphones and speakers are just different. In terms of raw performance (value for the money) headphones are going to outclass speakers. Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room.What site do you think you’re on? This is not a Reddit or head-fi thread. Do you even know how ridiculous this sounds? Have you even heard a well-constructed, high-end audio system, or have you just listened to headphones your whole life? — because that’s sure what this sounds like. Really good headphones at their best sound sound like a good audio system in a really, really small room. And no headphones can come close to everything a high-end audio system can provide. Case in point — I can assess 100% of the quality of a recording on a good home system whereas I’m limited to about 80% with headphones. Soundstage size, depth and dimension, spatial cues, image placement, etc. are all laid bare in a good home system yet merely hinted at relatively with headphones. So if you think the only place speakers win is with bass you have no idea of what you’re talking about or missing. |
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Okay @soix Read all of this carefully before replying... The problem with folks who tend to disagree with others on this site is... 1) they are too opinionated (and easily offended) 2) they don't provide any backing to their claims (believe they have all the answers) 3) they don't understand how to have an honest discussion (ramblings, going off topic, etc. like a high school student) So we disagree about something. WONDERFUL. Nothing is going to change in real life for either of us. So you're saying that no single headphone in the world can sound like a speaker? For example, have superb imaging and soundstaging capabilities? Have you heard headphones that cost more than $20? Are you limited to your local Walmart for audio needs? Have you actually worked with professional studio monitors that cost as much as your house? Have you ever worked in studios, with audio professionals, or even spoken to industry leaders? 🤔 I don't know...but the funny thing is you are so deeply concerned about someone else's viewpoints...you really need to get a life. |
Yes, the truth might well be out there, but finding it seems to be quite another matter.The Audio Circle of Confusion is a very useful concept... thanks to cd318 for the short useful article.... It only confirm my point about the supremum importance of the acoustical embeddings controls over almost anything and even more powerful than the completely underestimated mechanical and electrical noise floor control...( in my limited experience) We must begin somewhere and we will not change the general situation in recordings industry in the near time to come ... We must begin with our audio room and then we will cease to buy bad recordings...... For the headphones debate the discussion is impossible because people like what they already own like i was in love with my headphones : I never said that headphones are bad and not audiophile matters...I say that i dont feel the need to use them at all anymore and i try to explain why.... Second i said that the atmosphere and acoustial potential settings of a room so complex they are, contrary to the FIXED limitations of shells and drivers of any headphones, can be modified MORE EASILY than an headphone shells, like some "acoustical clay", with PASSIVE usual materials treatment and ACTIVE Helmholtz resonators controls and others complementary unorthodox ways....I never said that acoustical treatment and controls are easy to made.... I ONLY said that it will not need to cost big money at all to do it ... i did it at peanuts cost then😊..... Then almost no headphones can give you what a "relatively well chosen" speakers/room will give after some acoustical modifications...But YES it is way more easy to use a good headphone than transforming the speakers/room relation....It is way more easy to buy costly gear than studying,listening,experimenting and creating your own solution...I did it not because i was clever than anybody here.... I did it because i was dreaming audiophiles dreams WITHOUT the money to BUY them... Any man is resourceful in adversity or he die....I was.... No need to use sarcasm or insult.... Little Brain work is enough and experiments... If someone disagree with what i just said , it is simply that his room/speakers are uncontrolled, or his choice of speakers underpar, or the two.... Am i deaf to think that i prefer now my room/speakers to my 7 headphones? In the beginning with the same speakers it was the complete opposite... I begins my audio journey modding my headphones and refining them....I quit the headphone forums when i begin to adress mechanical, electrical and acoustical working embedding dimensions of my system/room and i come here.... The only change in my last 2 years are the fine tuning of my acoustical controls and also mechanical more effective vibrations controls ....Nothing else.... Same dac, same amplifier, same speakers .... I will not pay 10,000 bucks for a better headphone system than my last 7 one.....I dont fell this need no more.... « For simpleton coins had only 2 opposing sides , which they flip, after loading them on one side, 😁 ignoring that it is a "revealing" third dimensional object»-Groucho Marx 🤓 |
I am very tired of the use of "placebo effects" by some... The most powerful placebo effects in audio threads are induced by costly gear upgrades debate and marketing... Not so much in a strings of hundred ongoing CUMULATIVE listenings experiments for a long time period with the same gear....My case....Placebo plays in my case also but not so much only and always in the same singular negative way .... Placebo dont explain mechanical, acoustical electrical noise floor controls by itself only, by the way.... And placebos effects are not only negative"illusions" to eradicate, they can be linked to LEARNED positive biases, like a direction of flow in a road...It is a COMPLEX concept.... If the complexity of ANY concept exceed your processing brain dont use it to insult in a free manner all a category of people indiscriminately... Thanks.... |
I am not averse (see, didn't include anyone else in my pronouncement) to finding those quality pieces for less money; sometimes it pans out, most times I realize that something is not quite right for whatever reason, and I am ultimately dissatisfied with it. SO you need to look yourself in the eye and be honest with what kind of person type are you - the kind who listens for yourself and can be happy with a "good deal" or "giant killer", the kind who says "It's got to cost $$ or it's no good", or possibly "I can't tell the difference between A and B, but if so-and-so says it's good, that's good enough for me". You will save yourself a lot of time and money and heartache in acknowledging what type you are. Coming from a musical background, I would initially buy a cheaper model guitar and tell myself that it was just as good as the more expensive model but then spend lots of money and time upgrading parts, and still ending up getting rid of that guitar and buying what I really wanted in the first place. I now try to catch myself before I go buy the "Junior" version of something and ultimately spend more money in the long run. Understanding that sometimes you just can't swing (insert appropriate amount of money here) right now but if the one you really want isn't too too far out of reach, hold off until you can get it (maybe used). |
Have you ever worked in studios, with audio professionals, or even spoken to industry leaders? for those who don’t know, @soix has been in and around the high end hifi industry for many many years, in fact wrote professional equipment reviews, has terrific ears, thus has broad and deep experience and knowledge in this field, and actively shares it with other users seeking guidance on this board just sayin... @soix doesn't call out others' statements often, nor whimsically, and when he does, most readers here take notice |
IMHO the placebo effect happens more for subtle possible improvements than big ones. When something hits you obviously when you listen for the first time, that is when you know you have something. Unfortunately (or fortunately) many changes happen, many records get played, and it is very hard to know what or how much happened when. Also, it is very hard to remember how something used to sound. |
One other point - if you know something is better sounding than something else, by recommendation of someone you trust or universal acceptance, sometimes I'll just go for it knowing it is better. For example, I was told by Ron (Martin) Sutherland himself of the Phono Stage company and creator of Martin Logan several decades ago, that my phono stage would sound better with a linear power supply versus the switched one provided as standard. He had just started offering the upgrade of his trickle down technology from a phono stage costing 2.5 times as much as mine. It was a little less than half of what I got the phono stage for, but he said if it was his brother in law, he would tell him to do it, so I just did it. He even helped me install it so I wouldn't have to pay 2 way shipping to Kansas. Could I tell afterwards? Not specifically, but I had also recently upgraded the interconnect from the PS to the amp, but sometimes knowing it is better sounding gives you peace of mind even if you didn't prove it specifically for yourself. Perfect example - rollerblocks isolate components and also transfer vibration out of them. Inside them are ball bearings of certain specifications that make the box float. The new base level (formerly one top from the base) has 10 parts per million of imperfection in the shape/quality of it, and the highest level one, called a "super ball" (I kid you not), has 2.5 ppm, or a 75% reduction in imperfections. The cost of this upgrade is equal to the entire cost of the base rollerblocks with (the newly upgraded) standard bearings. Some people will buy the super balls based on the owner's recommendation knowing they are the best and have that peace of mind. Bear in mind that the previous improvement to the 10 ppm was down from 60 ppm, or an 83% improvement. Talk about the law of diminishing returns....This is the epitome of it, but he sells a ton of them for those who want the absolute best, and if I spent triple on my stereo, I would probably get them. The owner did not recommend them to me based on my system, so he understands how high resolving a system you need to hear or appreciate the improvement. This is the case with fuses, power cords, etc. |
@mahgister you make statements about your system regarding the placement and the presentation you get and how headphones cannot compare. If it's the same system I saw in your picture, how on Earth do you get a sense of space or depth or width or imaging, sound staging, etc. I'm not trying to start an argument or be mean I simply don't understand how you can get that effect with your speakers being where they are. |
@mahgister you make statements about your system regarding the placement and the presentation you get and how headphones cannot compare. If it’s the same system I saw in your picture, how on Earth do you get a sense of space or depth or width or imaging, sound staging, etc. I’m not trying to start an argument or be mean I simply don’t understand how you can get that effect with your speakers being where they are.You are perfectly right.... Now i can understand what your sarcasm was hiding ....I apologize to you because i could be rude if someone seems to mock me...I am human.... Yes it is impossible to reach a good level of depth imaging and listener involvement in my square room 13 feet 1/2 with speakers on desk and one in one of the corner of the room, creating an imbalance in the imaging... BUT....... Acoustic material treatment rightfully done, and more than that a grid of rightfully located Helmholtz resonators which are finely tuned to the speakers/room relation, and which some are located at critical spots, or near each driver speakers in an symmetrical way, COULD create all the S.Q. imaging, soundstage, and more important natural timbre experience and listener inclusion in the music stage with some good recordings... I succeed in making the walls of my room being friends and no more foes.... I create 40 Helmholtz resonators of different size mechanically adjustable in length, orientation, and size to do it....At no cost....Even with empty toilet paper roll... 😊 When i listen music i listen the sound and dont look at my silly room in the dark.... All my posts here are there to promote creativity at no cost not bragging about my piece of gear which are only average but very good for their price..... No headphones i own and no system i listen to make me desesperate about my actual S.Q. in my room.... that speak volume....It is not the best but...... I live very well with it..... Acoustic is the queen, and all others pieces of gear and tweaks are the 7 working dwarves.... |
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Ok Sparky, I’ll bite... So you’re saying that no single headphone in the world can sound like a speaker? For example, have superb imaging and soundstaging capabilities?Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Headphones have imaging and soundstage within their considerable limits but in no way compare to the large 3D soundscape that can be created by a home system. Period. Have you heard headphones that cost more than $20? Are you limited to your local Walmart for audio needs?Again, yeah. Top level Audeze, Hifiman, Stax, etc. Best I’ve heard by a good margin were the Raal SR1a, but even those I wouldn’t put at more than 30% of what a good home system can do. It’s a scale thing. Have you actually worked with professional studio monitors that cost as much as your house?Well, I used to sell ATC speakers and thought pretty highly of active 150s, but even the 50s were pretty damn impressive. I do have experience hearing top models from Wilson, Magico, Rockport, YG, Nola, VonSchweikert, Martin Logan, and many others. Most of these systems were well north of $300k, which would buy a decent house most places but not where I live outside NYC. Best I ever heard was Nola Grand Reference driven by top Audio Research electronics spinning vinyl on a hideously expensive turntable that I can’t recall. Headphones, even really good ones, can’t come close to reproducing the majesty and scale that (or most) good systems are capable of. I don’t know...but the funny thing is you are so deeply concerned about someone else’s viewpoints...you really need to get a life.Truth is I couldn’t give a crap about your ridiculously uninformed opinion until you called out another highly experienced and respected member on this site. What I do care about is when someone comes here and spews out misleading garbage that someone who’s learning and doesn’t know better might actually believe. Those things I tend to call out because they’re foolish statements that do a disservice to others here. I suggest you take your head out of your ‘phones and spend some time listening to some good home systems so you don’t barf out anymore stupid crap like “Where speakers win is with visceral bass that we can feel within a room.” Clueless. Absolutely clueless. |
What a waste of time for you to have written all of that. At least you made a keyboard happy. I never tell others they are wrong about anything. I may offer a unique answer or solution, but that’s it. Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and opinions. It’s a free country. Pushing others to believe that only your views are correct makes you less credible. I’ve known people who owned celebrity headphones that were made of cheap plastic and sounded terrible. What did I do when they asked me what I thought?! I simply said to them - if you enjoy them, that’s what matters. I said that personally, they are not headphones I would use; but to each their own. I never said headphones equal the performance of loudspeakers directly. If anything, you are bringing confusion to an otherwise intellectually honest discussion. People who know what they are talking about don’t have anything to prove to others; much less a community of strangers on an online forum. If anyone is directed to the wrong information, that is not your responsibility. This is not a classroom. These folks are not your students. Can we turn to page 999 now? |
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I never said headphones equal the performance of loudspeakers directly.Ha. Impressive retort. Nice lame attempt a a dodge, and that’s true. Indirectly. You implied headphones were better, except for the bass. If anything, you are bringing confusion to an otherwise intellectually honest discussion.No, I’m actually bringing some clarity for people who might not know better. And there’s nothing intellectually (or sonically) honest to what you stated. If anyone is directed to the wrong information, that is not your responsibility.Well, neither is it yours to overconfidently state misleading things about something you clearly know little about. Maybe we’re even then, eh? Here endeth the lesson. |
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Oh man, Reddit needs you. They love inexperienced, ignorant, overconfident people over there. And since professors don’t answer to principals, I’ll just stay right here thanks. I’ve seen your other posts, and if you continue shamelessly flaunting your ignorance here, believe me I won’t be the only one calling you out. Reddit is your friend — it’s a much better fit for you. |
It is not necessary to create wars.... Most people even with top headphones or top speakers and top electronics have no idea what their audio system can optimally do when rightfully controlled... The reason is simple : embeddings working dimensions controls...Mechanical, electrical but ESPECIALLY acoustical... Most people who own a small square room or with an imbalanced acoustic, geometrically, topologically or in acoustical content, dont know how to treat the room.... And when they know they think about the usual PASSIVE material treatment mainly.... But for small room with acoustic imbalance, passive treatment will not be enough nor optimal... Adressing the speakers/room by activation of the relation between speakers and room with Helhmotz resonators AND diffusers will complete the job of the usual passive treatment and put it on another level...(there exist also secondary unorthodox means i will not describe here to not create useless debates) A room is not a set of passive walls waiting the sound waves to bounce on them ( this image validity is linked to Hall or theater big space).... Most people had this image... A small room by contrast is more a dynamical organism which metabolism is constituted by small pressures zones of different densities living in TIME not only in space....And Helmholtz resonators and diffusers are NEW CELLS added to this organism controlled by your EARS, helped if you want by some measuring apparatus... But a room COULD be TUNED like a piano can be tuned by human ears.... Room relatively large could be well tamed sometimes or seems to be so with only usual passive treatment BUT to optimalize the speakers/room relation i think Helmholtz resonators and diffusers grid will increase big time all acoustic experience factors... An audio room ideally cannot be a living room.... Sorry.....my audio room cannot be recreated in a living room... But some aspects can be used in a living room.... It is not necessary to install a grid of 40 Helmhotz resonators and diffusers like me to obtain very good results.... Very precise small sets of resonators and aesthetically designed can do ( i am not crafty )....I use sometimes "toilet paper rolls" but you can use more sexy material for a living room.... Anyway acoustic ratio sometimes dont give a damn about the specific material save for their acoustic properties....Use what you want if the acoustic ratio is right... By the way i am not an acoustician, nor an audio pro, only an average dude with no money who decided one day to create his own audio system at peanuts costs if necessary because i could not afford costly gear i was dreaming about anyway.... You dont have to believe me.... Only to think about some simple concepts and experiences i suggest at no cost or very low cost... Thats all... We are here to partake concepts and experiences first, opinions second, and politely argue about.... I am not interested to prove anything, only that one dude exist here that is not impress by costly marketting of electronic pieces hype upgrading obsession, why? (Not because a better electronic gear is useless, if i could i woul buy better audio system....But my 500 bucks one is relatively very satisfying now....) Then why? Because if Acoustic science is the sleeping princess, and any tweak or piece of gear are one the 7 working dwarves, guess who is the prince ? You own creativity is the prince.... Trust yourself.... |
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I have read this discussion with some interest as I am considering upgrading headphones from my older Beyerdynamics model fairly soon, and I must say, @soix seems to be pretty much on the mark with his comments, which are more even handed and also in line with my own experiences with headphones versus proper loudspeaker driven in room stereo systems. |
Like I said before, loudspeakers and headphones are different PRESENTATIONS. It's not a matter of some people like vanilla and some people like chocolate. The comparison is more of some people like ice cream and some people like brownies. The question is, what type of dessert do you prefer? Okay, that was a very corny example but just trying to make a point that people have different needs when listening to high end. |
Well from now on...I’m not going to respond to stupidity.No, but unfortunately for those of us here you seem intent on propagating it. Seems like the site admins are favoring youHmm. I wonder why that might be? Something to ponder fer sure. It would have been fine to simply disagree and present your own findings.Um, that’s exactly what I did. And note my post wasn’t removed because it’s based on experience, fact, and logic. You just didn’t like that I called you out on one of your outlandish assertions. You can take a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it. People will do what they want. You can’t stop them - even if/when you provide the most logical solutions.No, but I can provide information that hopefully helps a horse recognize and not drink toxic water. I feel good about that even if some horses decide to drink it anyway. Case in point @troidelover1499 above — score one for logic and experience. Listen to honest folks like maghister; you may learn something new.Yeah, he pretty much agrees with me and is trying his best to do it politely. Pity you don’t recognize that but not at all surprising. That toxic water does funny things to the brain. But even he has his limits and finally felt the need to hit you over the head directly to figure it out... My own limited experience and experiments confirmed that generally speakers/room rightfully controlled exceed any headphones...Are we done here? |
@mastering92, "One of the most important things I've learned in life is...You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. People will do what they want. You can't stop them - even if/when you provide the most logical solutions." My experiences too. I guess the real trick is to get them to believe that whatever you're promoting is actually what THEY really want to do! In fact most of the trillions of global advertising revenue dollars spent seem to be attempting to do exactly that. Yet it often remains a difficult task as anyone who's ever tried their hand at teaching might tell you. Thanks for the tip about the Sony MDR M1ST. It looks like Sony have put some real effort into its design, so they might be ones to look out for if you want a pair of headphones that will let you hear what your recordings actually sound like. The reason the Sony MDR 7506s have been around virtually unchanged for decades because thousands of industry users have come to trust it. Even multi-million dollar film soundtracks are checked for accuracy with them. And then someone goes and adds a ton of compression....and makes it almost unlistenable. Ah well, such is life! |
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Rick and Krissy are coming in less than two weeks. For two whole years I have been bragging about having the best system in the universe. Well the known universe anyway. So their expectation bias is set sky high. Also the last year or so has established me as the foremost authority on high end audio, this side of Michael Fremer anyway, if not quite the known universe. So the placebo effect is maximized as well. This is therefore a done deal. I mean, if expectation bias and placebo effect have anything to do with anything. |
@cd318 Regarding the Sony MDR-M1ST ( I think every studio should own a pair ) They are neutral with detail retrieval and sonic characteristics that you would typically find in more expensive headphones. They are actually made in Japan. (They’re only about $400). As I’ve told some of my friends; the product description (intended purpose) is more important than price. Bass: Tight - well extended, but slightly warm (this can easily be tuned) Midrange: Accurate - the tonality/extension of vocals and instruments Treble: Excellent - some of the best I’ve heard on headphones Imaging: Superb - but depends on what is being played Soundstage: Well above average (almost sounds like an open design) One of the biggest benefits of headphones is their immediacy in terms of sonic presentation. With headphones, you only need a fairly quite room. Each headphone will provide something unique in terms of build quality, styling, and sound signature. With headphones, you get a lot of choices. I’m not bashing speakers or saying anything negative about them. With speakers, you have many other variables to consider (room treatments, having a good room, amps, DACs, CD players, cables, etc. Once again, to each their own. If I get a super pair of speakers/full system again, it will be when I have someone to share it with. For now, my cheapo $500 Panasonic shelf system is fine...because I’m not being hypercritical of how it sounds. I’m using it for subjective enjoyment (enjoying lyrics, emotions, favourite instruments in songs etc.) @millercarbon I think everyone probably appreciates your comment. This audio hobby should not be a competition of who has the most expensive or resolving system...yours looks great btw (the room looks epic) |
One of the biggest benefits of headphones is their immediacy in terms of sonic presentation. With headphones, you only need a fairly quite room. Each headphone will provide something unique in terms of build quality, styling, and sound signature. With headphones, you get a lot of choices. You are right saying that.... I know that a speakers/room system, and not necessarily a costly one, when rightfully embed will beat most heaphones i know of... But it is way more easy and less costly in money and time sometimes for some to create an headphone system... It takes me almost no money but hundred of listenings experiments to make my room/speakers relation right... This tuning take me a couple of years all in all and few months of intense experiments listenings with Helmholtz method of resonators and diffusers...And it is impossible to fully implement it in a living room... Someone, unlike me, could buy a very costly system and install it in a larger less difficult room than my small square room... And he will probably get good resuts with only usual acoustical materials treatments....Without using a grid of 40 Helmholtz resonators and diffusers...And others unorthodox devices... Anyway yes, it is relative to anybody taste and choice and capital disponibility , but in the absolute if my small low cost speakers system can beat my 7 headphones of all types, a costly refine speakers system will be superior and will be no match for any headphone, ESPECIALLY if vibration, electrical noise floor and acoustic are controlled....At this point it is no more taste but an acoustical fact....Soix is right about that... Between the taste and favorite choice and the ultimate fact and truth of speakers or headphones advantages there is the scale of S.Q. /price ratio and the underestimate working domensions of the audio system embeddings triple controls....It take these 3 embeddings factors together and a relatively refine system to reach the speakers/ room ideal and optimal possibilities....And for me it take a goddam period of time to tune them right... My best to all and deepest respect.... |
I think it's a great question. I think the best answer here, from my own experiences, is that yes indeed our subjective assessment of sound quality, especially with something we can't "blind" test like headphones, is highly affected by the appearance, feel and knowledge of the brand and price - at first - both in the short and long terms. In the short term we are impressed, or have our expectations confirmed, only to have that experience change with more listening to a specific model. Long term, with experience listening to many different things, we become better listeners and more quickly hear the things that took a long time to recognize when we first began. I'm really just repeating what others have said, but these two factors summarize what seems important to me from all of these replies: placebo effect is real but it fades, and the better you get at listening, the less you are affected by it in the first place. |
