For those of us that buy or sell anything online and don't want to be audited by 50 states plus, please take notice to the new internet sales tax that is going through fast right now!! Spread the word, call your congressman, this will put all small vendors out of business most likely, don't let it happen guys!!
It is incumbent on the feds to figure out a sane way to implement this. The state i live in requires one to claim anything bought sales tax free. I think I am probably the only one in the entire state who actually does this, therefore, the honor system appears to not be working. Hence this move.
AFAIK tax on out of state purchase is illegal. Because of that my state (Illinois) collects "use tax" - different name of the same thing. Since I don't remember what I bought where I use option of paying fixed "use tax" proportional to gross income. I found this:
"What Are Use Taxes
As a general rule, a state's taxing power reaches only as far as its borders. What this means for sales tax purposes is that a state cannot impose its sales tax on retail sales that are consummated in other states. Because states can tax only transactions within their borders, there is a big loophole from the perspective of the State Department of Revenue. A state's residents could avoid paying a state's sales tax by making their purchases outside the state, either by crossing the border to an adjoining state or by making purchases via the Internet. To close this loophole, each state that has a sales tax also has a complementary "use" tax. The use tax applies to the "use, storage, or other consumption" within the state of tangible personal property, the purchase of which would have been subject to the sales tax had the transaction occurred within the state."
I agree with Tim. (on everything) I will say that maybe if I looked at my check stub and didn't feel like what I pay in was absurd, I'd feel better about paying online tax. As it stands, if I never paid any online tax, I still pay more than my fair share. Uncle Sam taxes me when I earn it, they tax me when I spend it. The tax on a pack of smokes is crazy. Alcohol too. How about gas tax? When I pay in too much, and get a refund, I have to claim that and get taxed again. In the end, I probably pay in 50% of what I earn to some form of tax. I'm sorry if I "neglect" to claim what I buy online. My bad.
I gotto go with yes on the tax. The folks working out of their home with a high-falootin' web site are closing the mom and pop stores in our town. The home office sellers pay no rent on commercial property, no sales tas, no use tax, no unemployemnt tax, no workers comp, no disability and probably don't claim a whole heck of a lot in income tax. And tax the heck out of Amazon & Ebay. I am talking new products here. Not the re-sellers of used items. So guess who's covering their asses? You and I folks.
It's kind of a double edged sword. If it goes through, some states could I suppose be hurt if all of the sudden online purchases slow down because the price differential won't be advantageous anymore. If that happens, and you have a company in your state that loses a lot of online business, their profits will fall and all of the sudden their contributions to the state via corporate income tax will fall as well. The 64k question in this case would be would those lower corporate income taxes be offset by the increases in sales tax revenue. No way to tell at this point, but it could turn into a situation of "be careful what you ask for."
No way! We pay a multitude of taxes already.The mindset of this country is really changing to support an ever larger and greedier federal government that spends recklessly. Citizens are better off when more of their money stays in their pocket. Regards,
+1 Charles1dad If I knew all the lying scumbags in office would do the proper thing with the money I might feel differently. Do we really need a new tax on ANYTHING?
The tax rate has been too low for too long. Its common knowledge that American's are not willing to give up anything taxes provide and want the pre 1981 services and regulations restored.
As demonstrated by the resent failure of the House to pass reasonable gun registration, or any meaningful legislation, its very clear our Government has been unable to represent the people for some time. The inability for a simple majority to carry any motion has the world laughing at our once admired government.
Under this current climate of corporations holding trillions off shore, using our infrastructure and paying nothing, one wonders if a tax increase to the people is an equitable solution.
Under this current climate of corporations holding trillions off shore, using our infrastructure and paying nothing, one wonders if a tax increase to the people is an equitable solution.
This is my issue with more taxes on the average citizen.
Like all legislation it's all about the implementation and the burden it creates on small business. Poorly crafted legislation can/does/has, forced small businesses to close because of the cost to comply. Lately this has happened in virtually every industry from manufacturing and construction to mortgage brokers and private practice doctors. Large companies, because of scale, easily comply and lobby for this type of legislation for just this reason. Barriers allow big business to grow while reducing the little guyÂ’s access to the pursuit of liberty which as you know, is a founding principle of this country and, letÂ’s be honest, the reason most of us are here (or why our ancestors came here).
Just because a poorly designed law passes doesnÂ’t mean it will be effective or not have adverse consequences. ItÂ’s like believing new gun laws will change the behavior of psychopaths and criminals.
The economy needs all the help it can get right now so letÂ’s hope that if another law passes it is done with these thoughts in mind so it doesnÂ’t strangle business as we have seen lately. A vibrant market place that fosters competition is better for consumers too!
Under this current climate of corporations holding trillions off shore, using our infrastructure and paying nothing, one wonders if a tax increase to the people is an equitable solution.
That's the reason for deficit. Government spending adjusted for inflation is the lowest since WWII. Government "overspending" hysteria is propelled by the same people who lend money to government (Federal Reserve approved list) with government guaranteed interest. Average income tax comes to about 15% - please show me another country like that. Sure, there is additional tax on cigarettes, gas etc but every country has it even worse.
One can find one or two countries (like Switzerland) with lower tax rates but we are pretty much at the bottom. Look at this chart: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/10/focus-4
IMHO...this is a bad idea. As already mentioned above, much of the money spent has already been taxed as income or otherwise. Let's remember that in addition to state taxes there are a boat load of local taxes to consider. The responsibility of collecting the myriad of potential taxes will be a huge burden to all, and might squeeze out small business and ergo competition and innovation, especially for upstart direct marketing companies. Then there is the issue of how much it will cost to audit and inspect all these enterprises? And who will be responsible for it? The government, the IRS? Politicians love more government jobs, with more potential to gather greater campaign contributions. Who will pay for all of this? You guessed it the same people who already paid more for the same item through taxes, will now pay for the cost of collecting and inspecting the collecting of those taxes; the consumer. While it might not be germane to our hobby, sales tax is unfair to the poor who live closer to pay to pay check than the rich. The poor pay a much higher percentage of their income on sales taxes for day to day survival, than the rich who spend much less of a percentage of their income on day to day survival, and can afford to spend much of their extra income on less taxed investments. The gap only widens. Please forgive me while I mount my soapbox for a moment; I suggest a flat rate income tax for all (and I do mean all), a repeal of sales tax, a sin/usage tax on non essential items, or items that require usage considerations. But, the cost of such sin/usage tax should only be for the actual cost incurred to society by the actual use of such products or services, and not to fund anything else. If the gains in income to those business that exist in communities that depend on tourism fail to cover the expenses of those communities previously depending on sales tax, perhaps an entry and/or exit fee for foreigners who would not be subject to this income tax could be instituted to help subsidize the lost revenue.
Charle1dad is spot on Agon folks. Come on. Don't give a poor money manager more money to waste. What are we coming to as a country? Goodness the very last thing we need to do is to pay more in taxes to a government that has no clue on how to rightly manage it. No way!
Folks, I don't like paying taxes. But the laws are what they are. The fact that it is easy to cheat on this makes no difference. If people like me refuse to follow the existing laws, our society will collapse faster than it will from anything else.
Brownsfan, Hi, look I'm responsible and law abiding and already pay a ton of taxes.We have sadly a federal government that collects 2.7trillion dollars in revenue (think about that sum) and yet spends 3.7 trillion! That is shameful and irresponsible, there's no other way to put it.They're collecting too much and this madness has to be faced and dealt with.We don't need more tax revenue we need a smaller and more honest government.The spending trend is a disgrace. The older I become the more genuine awe and respect I've developed for our founding fathers. Damm, they were wise and their fear of a overpowering government was well founded. Regards,
ItÂ’s not the tax itself, but the administrative burden to comply. A brick and mortar retailer has only one taxing entity. Online retailers will be liable to pay tax to 45 different states all with different taxable requirements. The cost of administering this will likely close many small online businesses which will have negative effects on local economies (landlords, CPAÂ’s, ISPÂ’s, local eateries, the list goes on).
Lately, poorly conceived legislation has caused business closings in virtually every industry from manufacturing and construction to real estate appraisers and private practice doctors. Large companies easily comply and lobby for this type of legislation for just this reason. Barriers allow big business to grow while reducing opportunity for the little guy. Opportunity fosters innovation, competition, and helps keep the income gap to a minimum, so maintaining it is paramount. In addition, a vibrant market place that fosters consumer choice is better for consumers.
Plenty of laws with catchy titles but poor design have passed which are not effective and have had adverse consequences. ItÂ’s like believing new gun control laws will change the behavior of psychopaths and criminals. LetÂ’s hope that if another law is passes it is well thought out and not rushed like so many others. This economy needs all the help it can get.
Kijanki, You wrote; “Government spending adjusted for inflation is the lowest since WWII.” I’ve been to many sites trying to confirm this but find the opposite is true. Can you point me to information confirming your statement?
A couple of weeks ago CBS of Canada aired a program about a leaked hard drive that purported to claim that there's about 32 TRILLION dollars sitting in off shore accounts (no names, naturally). About 21 TRILLION is supposed to be owned by about 4,000 "Americans" who don't want to pay taxes on 'their" money.
I'm pretty fair minded when it comes to taxes, as already stated, it's the price one pays for a democracy (Greece started it way back when). All this talk about internet taxes has been coming for years now and I guess the gig is up.
But, can all of us (not here but this country) just wake the hell up and realize the scam that's being perpetrated on us. If we were to get just 1/3 of that 21 TRILLION (taxes and penalties) we'd be in pretty good shape.
Pay taxes on the money I make, pay taxes on the money I spend, pay you taxes, pay taxes at the end of the year, pay more taxes; good thing our government aren't a bunch of scandelous crooks. Just kidding, politicians in government, I love you guys! Good job! Keep up the good work ;-), and don't audit me.
Charles1dad, I could not agree more with everything you said above. I paid more in federal income tax alone last year than my entire gross salary for 1985, which was sufficiently large to permit me to support a family of 5. My idea of me paying "my fair share" would involve cutting my tax bill in half. My point is that it doesn't work when people decide for themselves which laws they will obey. Taken to its extreme, that leads to anarchy. On a smaller scale, it leads to government replacing existing systems with ones that are worse, but enforceable, as in the current instance.
What is happening is that the notion of a social contract, which has been recognized as utterly essential since the age of enlightenment, has become almost completely lost. Democracy, as we currently practice it, becomes a tyranny of the average, with politicians pandering to selfish people for selfish purposes. The current situation is not a pretty picture.
Brownsfan, Excellently stated. I m not buying this idea that all this off shore money that`s untaxed is the root of this current debacle.Since when is a federal goverment somehow entitled to what other`s independently earned. I am sick and tired of "it`s the fault of selfish private citizens and business, if only they paid their fair share". They pay far more than they should and cover the 53% of the populstion that pays"no" federal income tax.There`s no logical justification for this large, bloated,greedy and fiscally undisciplined federal goverment. It`s growing as our private sector becomes smaller.Fewer americans working is not the direction for a stable future.How is this pattern substainable?
Charles1dad, Agreed. The problem is not too little taxation, it is too much utterly wrong headed government spending. But you know, these things run in cycles, and this problem with waste and entitlements can be addressed. What is not easily fixable is the real root of the problem, which is the breakdown of the social contract. I don't know how our society can recover that understanding. What happened to JFK's famous words, Ask not----?
The first thing we need to do to fix state and federal government is to demand a country wide referendum on... TERM LIMITS. For exampleÂ… Harry R. (in office since 1987), Nancy P. (in office since 1993), and cowboy Joe B. (in office since 1973).
Consider this, to impliment taxes on internet goods levels the playing field for the guys that own brick and mortar stores, because they are required to charge a sales tax. Alot of times folks go into a store to see what they want then leave and place the order with an internet company to save paying the sales tax. This in turn causes a substantial loss of revenue to store owners.
If there is anyone who feels that they aren't paying enough taxes, they can always donate whatever they feel is fair to the government. As long as I hear about the waste and corruption that runs rampant in our government, I will pay what I am forced to pay and nothing more.
To trot out those old canards and red herrings that the government is "bloated" and therefore doesn't deserve (my) tax money is disingenuous at best. Rather than obfuscate, tell the truth...admit to miserliness. Those decry "bloat" speak loudly, until government services are needed.
To all the people saying they pay too much in taxes, please outline what expenditures the federal government should eliminate, include actual dollar amounts, and provide a rough estimate of how much further your taxes would be reduced.
Hifibri, you are right. I should've said spending increase instead of spending. I compared 1962 and 2013 spending itself, adjusted for inflation and population minus two fold increase in military spending (adjusted for inflation) and payment on the debt and came up with $8.4k per capita now to $2.4k per capita in 1962. I'm not sure what the reasons are but huge increase in spending took place during Bush years. Running two wars, returning taxes and creating largest government in history took toll. This largest government was due to Homeland Security - largest government agency ever. Homeland Security budget is $70 billion a year. It is best example of bureaucracy, having multiple agencies that don't know about each other, doing exactly the same. Another factor is 6% going for payments on the debt that started big with Reagan who created 3.7 Trillion Debt - equal to perhaps double that in todays money. Spending is too high but the worst thing one can do is to avoid paying (from tax increase) because somebody will pay it anyway, either we or our children (with interest). A lot of money go to welfare but so far nobody, republicans or democrats is interested in reforms. Current welfare law supports not working. Instead we oppose public healthcare or education that IMHO should not be business oriented. Taxes are one of the lowest in the world but spread hysteria about being overtaxed causes very negative effects. Nobody wants to invest in any efficient long term program because it means being voted out of office. I remember discussion about Expressway reconstruction in Chicago area when they were not sure if it is worth to pay twice more for the road that lasts 4x longer. Any sensible person would say it is good deal (especially when they stand in traffic) but it was rejected. At the end we pay double because nobody wants to spend money now. We don't pay higher income tax percentage than before (I think) but big portion of tax revenue disappeared because of tax loopholes, companies going of shore and rich people keeping money in other countries. A lot of large corporations don't pay any tax at all.
The tax code we use is how oligarchs in our country evade payment. That money in offshore accounts is pretax, not already earned and taxed. There's hundreds of law firms that cater to the the 1/10 of 1% and provide them with all the expertise they need to hide their money. It is the most civilized version of all nations. Others, like Indonesia and the Philippines, use deadly force on a wide scale basis, like the Mafia Commissions used to (before they went 'legit') and the America Appalachians. Heck, Rome used to crucify 20,000 at a pop to make a point.
All it takes is a Tax Letter submitted to the IRS and then all bets are off. The IRS simply weighs the costs of litigation against what they can collect and if it's a wash, that letter is added to the tax code, to be used by others at those law firms mentioned, to bend to their clients needs. That's why the tax code used to be around 400 pages and is now over many thousands, broken into volumes.
I guess we can be happy that they're not using coercive violence against us but instead, simply buying as many politicians as necessary to achieve their financial goals. Take a look at Max Baccus who is soon to retire. 28 former members of his staff are now lobbying for Wall Street.
I am just wondering how many of you guys who Tea Baggers who constantly decry a smaller government and less entitlements are collecting Social Security and Medicare?
For Timrhu: the reason why the Feds can administer an Internet Sales Tax is because only Congress (and as delegated to the Executive branch) can regulate interstate commerce. In fact, that was one of the original (and few) functions of Federal power as outlined in the Constitution.
Guys, people on both sides of this issue are making valid points and there is a common thread that runs through all of it. I'm telling you, it's the failure of common ascent to social contract. There is no difference between Leona Hemsley and the millions of people in the US whose career objective is to become a 300 pound parasite. Simply stated, there is a price that ALL of us must pay for the benefits associated with living together as a society. Until and unless JFK's encouragement to think beyond ourselves becomes the predominant attitude, we will suffer from bloated government, unsustainable entitlements, and class warfare.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to fix the internet sales problem. You simply collect tax based on the state of the seller, not the buyer. This means the small sellers don't file taxes in 50 states, they collect and file taxes in the state in which they are located. If I live in one state and drive to another, I don't ask the merchants in the state I am visiting to send sales tax back to my home state.
Brownsfan, great points about "ascent to a social contract". That requires an honor system which most people feel doesn't apply to themselves, only others.
My point about Max Baccus former staffers going to work for Wall Street is that all these staffers do is prowl the halls of Congress lobbying for their clients who want nothing but to change the tax code. When people hear the word lobbyists, they think of roads, harbors, shopping malls and other mundane things but the lions share of lobbying is for tax breaks. There were only about 300 lobbyist in Reagans time and now there's over 3,000. They had to devote a street to them to accommodate their lives and access to seek out politicians. It's called K Street since that's where most of them live. K Street is always mentioned in the news as shorthand for lobbyists and the high and mighty they represent. These lobbyist and staffers go back and forth switching from public work to private work in their careers writing legislation that screws us to the benefit of their clients. They know the system inside out. Lots of times they don't even bother to wait to come back to public work as a staffer and just write the laws themselves and give to their friends in the Congressman or Senators office to have them sign it as if they wrote it themselves.
Until money is taken out of politics, Citizens United is overturned (corporations are not people and money is not the same thing as speech) and public financing is the ONLY way to fund elections, all bets are off. All discussion is academic. Any conclusion, moot.
Thank goodness we have this hobby to escape to. It's the only real solace I get nowadays, which, come to think of it, aptly describes an audiophile. :-)
Reckless they are!,why would we need to bail out the goverment with more tax money when they cannot even manage what they already have coming in!, In there pockets our money goes! LOL!,,,, cheers!
If you collect taxes in the seller's state it's not a sales tax, it's an excise tax. I don't believe that the states are going to stand for that. They want their piece of the pie that has been disappearing (been previously uncollectible) on the internet. This is not a difficult thing to accomplish; many online retailers that have B&M stores implement it now. It simply needs to be setup and administered by the B2C web portal engine. Trust me, these guys are all working on this as a value added service. My guess is that these sites will work as clearinghouses and process the funds collected on your behalf - for a fee, of course. The question is what will happen if and when an online retailer is audited, and by whom?
@ Br3098, Very good questions!, I would like to know them answers!, Back to my original post!, LOL!, My state of Alabama is even worse than the goverment with money management!, As said before, In there pockets the money will go!, Give you an example of corruption here, In mobile, Al, we had 9% sales tax, the corrupt mayor asked for a penny sales tax, said it would be temporary, when that year ended and the 10% sales tax did as well, He claimed for the next 3 or 4 months the city had no money to fuction!, he pushed and pushed till he had his way!, We again have 10% sales tax!, then 3 or 4 months after that, LOL!, The city is building a skate boarding park for the public and a ship mueseum down town, millions of dollars!,, so the whole idea about helping the city goverment fuction was a lie!, these construction sites is a way to embesele money in there pockets thru alot of red tape to help cover the truth of the matter!, If you do not know, 10% sales tax is the highest in the country that I am aware of!, So why do we need to give the state, national goverment more tax money?,, cheers!
Btw, We also pay taxes on food at the grocery store when most states do not!,so at this point, again, why do we need to pay more taxes where I live!, you cannot give me an answer for this, my state and city goverment is already killing us!,, cheers!
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
