Rocktown---While almost always true, their actually IS one way to subwoof a dipole loudspeaker successfully---with a dipole subwoofer! Gradient made one for the QUAD 63, and there is now one available for all planars. In fact, for all speakers in general. It is the product of a joint effort between Brian Ding of Rythmik Audio and Danny Richie of GR Research. It, like the Gradient, and also like the woofer section of the Linkwitz LX521, uses a pair of dynamic woofers mounted on an open-baffle H- or W-frame, commonly facing in opposite directions, though they don't have to be. The driver/baffle arrangement allows the woofer to have the same dipole radiation characteristics as planar speakers, with a null to either side. The woofers therefore don't "load" and pressurize the room the way sealed and ported subs do, sounding as lean and clean as do dipole speakers. The open-baffle design also prevents the woofers from having a resonant box to clutter up their sound---no bloat, no boom. The Rythmik/GR Research Sub also has Brian Ding's Direct Servo-Feedback system (found in all the Rythmik subs) keeping the woofers under tight control. A VERY special subwoofer!
Small room electrostat/ planar speaker?
In about 30 days will be moving to a new home where its going to be hard to make my 1.7 maggies work in a spouse friendly way ( the only large room is the main living room). I've always gravitated to planars and electrostatics, box speakers that don't sound colored or slow usually cost more than my entire system. Where I'd like to end up is a system that's extremely resolving at low to moderate volume levels, my main dissatisfaction with my current Mg 1.7 speakers and Prima Luna amp is that it really doesn't come to life until the volume is moderate listening levels or higher.
I'm wondering if anyone has seen something that approaches the coherency and speed of the 1.7s that would work in an 11x12 listening room? I'd like to keep the cost limited to $4k if possible.
I'm wondering if anyone has seen something that approaches the coherency and speed of the 1.7s that would work in an 11x12 listening room? I'd like to keep the cost limited to $4k if possible.
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I run Martin-Logans Electromotion ESLs in a small room with 25 watt Quicksilver tube amps. The ESLs do not have to be pulled out as far as Maggies do. I have mine in a cross corner location and the bass is amazing and the little amps drive the speaker quite well. You may want to try the new ESL-X it should be better than mine and there is nothing wrong with my set-up. Low volume listening is also as good as it gets. |
Well... if you like the Maggie sound... you should likely consider the MMG’s and .7’s for that size room... or... maybe even the Mini-Maggies with DWM. But... if you want to consider a proven "giant killer" - you’ll want to consider these, which I prefer to my Maggies... http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/products.html They do well in small, or large, rooms - simply unmatched sound quality at almost any price. |
One other thing to consider about the Eminent vs the Maggies. The Eminents do not go below 7-8 ohms. Its a much easier load for your amp. Eminents love Volts (tubes) rather than Watts. So that’s a huge consideration vs something like a Maggie in your situation. You want a speaker that react great to tube amps...especially lower powered ones.. |
Good point, aniwolfe. And though probably not called for by the LFT-16a, using a moderately powered ss amp on the dynamic woofers of the LFT-8b and the same in a tube amp on its m-p panels is optimal. The panels themselves present an about 11-12 ohm load to the amp when separated. They deserve and respond to superior amplification! |
Omegas are fine speakers and Louis is one of the nicest guys in audio. But they have a small sweet-spot(like Maggies) and sound far better with tubes than SS . So much so, I would say they require tubes . Also, the ability to play complex music well, aka a, symphony , is just not there . Again, they are very good , if I was going to listen primarily to jazz might well be my choice. I have owned 2 pairs . |
Well. people do have different ideas as to what constitutes a "sweet spot". On the acoustic music I listened to my 3XRS had a small one and other listeners felt the same . Still were fine speakers . For reference , at time I had MMG, Totem Signature 1, Gallo CL-3, Rega RS1 and Meadowlark Kestrel 2 none of which did except the MMG . |
Yes, I suppose you're correct, much of audio is rather subjective, no? I referenced my MMGs and MicroWalsh Talls because of the 2 distinct and very different presentations of these speakers, both of which I like and still have. The Maggies, as you know, have a very small sweet spot (head in vise). The Ohms, on the other hand, have a sweet spot nearly the size of the room and they're well know for this. The Omega's, for me, in my room, with my subjective understanding of "sweet spot", fall somewhere between the Maggies and the Ohm's, somewhat like my Mark & Daniel Rubys. BTW, I have no reason to doubt your experience with the Omega's, I was just surprised is all. Nice speakers you've had there @schubert, which do you use now if you don't mind my asking? |
I use the Rega RS-1 most of the time because I've been to thousands of classical music concerts in my in my life and they sound the most realistic. Close to a single-diver in that the cross-over is one small cap . Totem 1 Sigs have best tone but are hard to drive, Regas are close and sing with small tube amps . Gallo has at least a big sound stage as Ohms but a bit bright . I heard the new Rega RX-1 at local dealer, he is also Maggie dealer, had his .7 maggies right next to them, he kept saying how they image as he switched back and forth , true enough but concert halls don't and the RX-1 as FAR better sounding in every respect . I would try some Ohms but ones I have looked at used looked almost shoddy,I like pretty speakers , |
I have a small man cave room with Manley equipment and rega RP8. I have a pr of Quads Unlimited restored esl57's and they worked excellent in my room. They can be close to the side walls (about 8") you don't have to worry about protection and the bass is more than enough. I have played them 80 - 90 db all day long. The room is only 10x11 I've had them hooked up to my PASS X250.5 in my big living room and now use a 100 watt mono blocks Manley Snappers Because I wanted a change I bought a pr of ATC SCM19v2's that I love. They give me the transparency of the Quads with Bass Impact when pushed. |
I heard the Mini Maggie system a few years ago at a mfrs' open house at my local high end store. The room was about the same size as yours. I'm sure that the basic 3-piece Mini Maggie would be sufficient, but to demonstrate just how dynamic this system could be, they used two pairs of the satellites and used some serious Bryston power amps behind it. It has the sound you are seeking--fast, dynamic, freakishly realistic-sounding, and totally devoid of boxy resonances, hot spots, and suckouts. About 2 years later I bought a pair of 1.7s because my living space had room for them. But I'd say that Mini Maggie demo is what really made me want to own Magnepans, and when I have to downsize, it'll be Mini Maggies, no question, if they're still in production. |
I have a similar sized room (bedroom-size) and Martin Logan Aerius-i were the best sounding speakers I ever had in there and I wish I never sold them. Had MMG's and they were too small for me, then had 1.6's and they were too big. I wanted to try the .7's as mentioned in one of the above posts, but I left a message at the closest dealer to me (about 1 1/2 hours away) a week ago and the dealer never returned my call, so I guess I won't be going that route. I am tempted to try Martin Logan again but even the small ESL is much more expensive than the Magnepans. Good luck. |
All planar speakers-certainly all magnepans-have crossovers; this is a main reason I prefer single driver or other non-conventional crossover designs, e.g. 1st order crossovers or "super tweeters" crossed over way up high with a simple filter (ohm walsh; zu for example).The Sound Lab ESLs employ full-range drivers. |
One of the remarkable things about the Eminent Technology LFT-8b speakers is that it's "midrange" panel covers the frequency range of 180Hz to 10,000Hz, with no crossover! The 1st-order filter at 180Hz hands off to a sealed-box 8" woofer, and the 1st-order filter at 10,000 to a ribbon tweeter. All for $2499 retail. |
@aniwolfe , @bdp24, Can you guys give a recommendation to the room size for the LFT-8b (the smallest acceptable size). I was reading about it after your recommendation above and it looks like a good candidate for my office system. I am currently using a great sounding KEF LS50 in an incredibly tiny office but will move to a bigger space soon (not sure about room size yet). How far from the walls do you place the speaker? I am going to be using the Benchmark AHB2 amp (mono block 380W) in the office will that SS amp be too bright with the E.T.? |
@yyzsantabarbara Well the ET’s in my experience sounded best with about 3 feet or more behind back of the panel. They do not need an overly dead sounding room to sound good in my experience. Even though they don’t have a very wide horizontal dispersion compared to dome driven speakers. I felt the side walls played a part in channel balance. So if you will need to be careful with that. The way I combated that was, a lot of toe-in. Also they sound amazing playing Moving Pictures by Rush. Geddy’s bass lines sound so good. |
@yyzsantabarbara , I, like aniwolfe, toe-in the LFT-8b’s a lot, aiming them right at the listening position. That positioning is normal to me, as my main speakers for years were the original Quad ESL’s. Severe toe-in minimizes the amount of side wall reflections, which is important in a small room. You want all sounds except those from the front of the speaker reaching your ears delayed in time (relative to the direct sound) 10ms or more. That is the amount of time our ear/brain mechanism requires for two sounds to be perceived as separate events. Anything less than 10ms, and the delayed sound is perceived as a smearing of the direct sound, rather than ambiance. The 3’ that aniwolfe recommends as the minimum distance the ET’s should be from the wall behind them is the common wisdom for all dipole speakers, not just the ET’s. 5’ is even better, if the room allows it. The reason for that is the 10ms figure; with a planar positioned 5’ from the wall behind it, the speaker’s rear wave takes 5ms to reach that wall (sound travels at approximately 1’ per ms) and be reflected off it, another 5ms to arrive back at the speaker. That rear/reflected sound is now delayed in time 10ms behind the same signal from the front of the speaker. Your ears hear the direct sound from the front of the ET’s, and then the rear wave 10ms later---mission accomplished! This is an over-simplification, as when the panels are not parallel to the wall behind them the rear wave will be reflected off first the sidewall behind the speaker, then the rear wall, then perhaps the opposite side wall, finally reaching the listening position. Some people like diffusion behind dipole/planar speakers, others absorption. A bright room will benefit from absorption, a dull one with diffusion. The LS50 is good for small rooms because of it’s coaxial driver; separate midrange drivers and tweeters need a certain amount of distance to "congeal" by the time their sound reaches the listener, but the coax driver in the LS50 doesn’t. One benefit of the unusually wide bandwidth of the ET’s LFT midrange driver (180Hz to 10kHz!) is the same as that of a coax---one driver and no crossover for the entire midrange (and more). Yes, a coax is really two drivers, but those drivers in many ways behave as one. The LFT-8b is 5’ tall, but only 13" wide. It doesn’t overpower a small room the way larger planars do (none more so than the 3-panel Magneplanar Tympani, which is 4’ wide!). For very small rooms, ET offers the LFT-16a, a monitor-size speaker containing the LFT driver, a ribbon tweeter, and dynamic woofer. One criticism of the original LFT-8 was it’s high frequency output, which was somewhat lower than many other speakers. The LFT has a 3-position tweeter hookup provision, which allows the tweeter’s output level to be selected. Some listeners thought that even at the highest setting, the LFT-8’s tweeter output was too low. Bruce Thigpen made a change to his ribbon tweeter, it’s location of the speaker’s baffle, and the speaker’s x/o. The change resulted in a new model designation, the LFT-8a. The only other change to the LFT in it’s entire history was to a better low frequency driver---an 8" dynamic woofer in a sealed enclosure. That resulted in the only other model designation change to the speaker, to the current LFT-8b. The LFT-8b has a nominal impedance of 8 ohms, but the LFT driver/ribbon tweeter combo presents an 11 ohm load to the power amp. The speaker has dual binding posts, one for the panels (LFT driver and ribbon tweeter), the other for the woofer. The panel’s 11 ohm load makes it much more tube-friendly than the other magnetic-planar loudspeaker---the Magneplanar, of course. The LFT-8b is not "ruthlessly revealing" (a euphemism for bright/forward), so can be paired with a good solid state amp. Because of the dual binding posts, if one chooses to do so the speaker can be run with a tube amp on the m/t panel, a solid state on the woofer. That makes possible the use of a pair of moderately-powered amps, but if one wants to use a single amp, a good hundred watter should be sufficient for all but the largest rooms. The same can not be said of Maggies (I’ve owned four pair of them, including the Tympani-IVa’s I currently own), which can use as much power as you throw at them. |
Thanks guys for the great info. I called a local dealer this afternoon in Los Angeles that carries the E.T. but they do not have it in the demo rooms. It is not a big seller for them and they like to show Magico's. If my next room is close to accommodating the E.T's I will get it. This speaker sounds like one that I can listen at low to mid volumes for the whole day while I work. I also want to try to get something other than a dynamic speaker design since I will have a living room speaker like that. |
@yyzsantabarbara , I'm going to guess your call was to Brooks Berdan Ltd. It was Brooks who turned me on to the ET's, and his widow Sheila, who now runs the business, from whom I bought my pair. The stands Sound Anchors makes for the LFT-8's are well worth their modest cost (a couple hundred bucks). You're correct in thinking the speaker is one that can be listened to at moderate spl. Maggies need to be cranked up a bit more to "open up". |
I'd be much more interested in these speakers if I could use my active crossover with 100 Hz high pass and low pass boards with them. I would send the high pass signal through my tube amp to the panel of the LFT-8b, then the low pass through my solid state amp to my own woofer array. Thus by-passing the LFT-8b bass driver. On another note, I think the true test of any panel speaker is to be able to play extremely well at low volume. |
@clio09--- ah, but you can! Since the m/t panel and the woofer each have their own speaker cable binding post, one can simply disconnect the woofer right on it’s post. Any separate, outboard woofer may then be used in it’s place, assuming it’s response extends to 180Hz, the frequency of the crossover. And as the x/o is a simple 1st-order, a capacitor can be installed in the woofer’s power amp to provide the filtering---no electronic x/o required. |
Well it is tempting but I do need a 100 Hz crossover point. The AirSpring woofer system I use was designed by Roger Modjeski and the crossover is the Beveridge RM-3 (also designed by Roger) with 100 Hz 4th order Link-Witz Reilly low pass filter (32 Hz EQ added by Roger) and the high pass filter also 4th order. The woofers resonate at just over 100 Hz, so I would not be able to crossover at 180 Hz. I use 4 boxes spread asymmetrically around the room. The system works great with Rogers ESLs or the 57s. |
If you haven't already tried them use 6550s in the 200. It was Brooks Berdan's favorite tube in both the RM-9 and RM-200. Roger kept a special stock of 6550s for Brooks, old Russian ones that if I recall did not have a getter. Alas, no more, but I have Roger's 200 over here and use Svetlana 6550s in it. Another 25 watts per channel. |
@clio09---Thanks for the tip! I didn't get my 200 until after Brooks croaked. I'll give Sheila a call, maybe they have a set of the RAM 6550's left. Brooks carried a lot of great brands that don't get a lot of attention---Eminent Technology, Music Reference, BEL, Spendor, Oracle, and the better known VTL and Jadis. |
Since I was in a generous spending mood, and the fact I will have to wait another 6 months+ until I move to the bigger office, I decided to give another speaker on this thread a shot. I just bought the Audience ClairAudient 1+1 Loudspeaker ($2345). I became intrigued by the fact that it does not use a crossover and is supposed to sound like a Quad. I have space on my desk for this speaker though it is best served by stands away from the wall. I do not have space at the moment for that. I will have the following office system in my current tiny office (system being made or shipped at the moment). Audience ClairAudient 1+1 (after I move I will also get the E.T. LFT-8b) Benchmark DAC3L Benchmark AHB2 amp MD 102 tuner Audience Au24 SX speaker cables Sonare mircoRendu + ROON My current system is actually perfect for the tiny space but I wanted to buy something just because I have been working too hard not to spend some cash. This system will move to my bedroom. KEF LS50 speaker Sony XDR -F1HD Peachtree Nova 150 integrated with DAC Audience Au24 SE speaker cables Sonare SonicOrbiter + ROON |
I have not read all the posts so forgive if I repeat someone else. Having owned many types of loudspeakers for the past 40 years, I've always enjoyed the near field listening position. So, I'm not sure that the 'smallish room' you have couldn't work to your advantage. Though the room is limited because of the almost square shape, you can sit very close to them, if that's an option for you. I currently have the 20.7 Maggies in a large room maybe 35x30 with 22 foot ceiling. Even so, I listen (for serious listening) at only six feet or so away. Now, having said that, it's not an option with time aligned speakers like THIEL, as the minimum distance should be, if I remember correctly, 8 to 10 feet away. Maybe you could try near field just to see if it pleases you. To me, it lessens room aberrations and gives all music a much more intimate presentation. (especially Lara Fabian, and I can use all the intimacy from her my wife will allow!!!) Good Luck in your search, which for me was always the best part. Larry |
I'd be much more interested in these speakers if I could use my active crossover with 100 Hz high pass and low pass boards with them. I would send the high pass signal through my tube amp to the panel of the LFT-8b, then the low pass through my solid state amp to my own woofer array. Thus by-passing the LFT-8b bass driver.@cli Bruce has been known to sell individual panels. A friend of mine purchased his panels and wired them up to create a 16 ohm full-range load, and I've heard of others just using single panels. So I bet you could pull this off. |
For a while I was searching for a pair of the ET LFT-6, the biggest panel Bruce made. Over 6' tall, each panel contained three of the LFT drivers, two of the ribbon tweeters. The only pair I found for sale were in Asia, and the shipping plus not being able to hear them scared me off. @aniwolfe, I think the same about the LFT-16a, a miniature version of the LFT-8. I've mentioned them a few times, but it takes a certain amount of independent thinking and self confidence to even consider them. A lot of people need confirmation (;-), and end up buying Maggies. |