@debjit_g You mentioned the Musetec and Mojo DAC's are different. Can you explain how they are different. Can you mention some of the DAC's you have had in the past?
Six DAC Comparison
I am in the middle of comparing the sound of six different DACs in my system. I own them all (I know weird) but one of them is still within a trial/return timeframe.
Not to share specific comparisons today, but a couple of observations so far are that first, they all definitely sound different from each other. On one hand, they all sound pretty good and play what is fed to them without significant flaws but on the other hand there are definite sonic differences that make it easy to understand how a person might like the sound of some of them while not liking others.
Second, raises the observation that most of them must be doing something to shape the sound in the manner the designer intended since one of the DACs, a Benchmark DAC3 HGA, was described by John Atkinson of Stereophile as providing "state-of-the-art measured performance." In the review, JA closed the measurements section by writing, "All I can say is "Wow!" I have also owned the Tambaqui (not in my current comparison), which also measured well ("The Mola Mola Tambaqui offers state-of-the-digital-art measured performance." - JA). The Benchmark reminds me sonically of the Tambaqui, both of which are excellent sounding DACs.
My point is that if the Benchmark is providing "state-of-the-art measured performance," then one could reasonably presume that the other five DACs, which sound different from the Benchmark, do not share similar ’state-of-the-art" measurements and are doing something to subtly or not so subtly alter the sound. Whether a person likes what they hear is a different issue.
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@brbrock as I was mentioning earlier I can’t justify a real comparison between the two as I did a bunch of mods to my amps/pre, music server, etc right after I received the X SE. They were already in the pipeline, so I couldn’t avoid it. As with burn-in/break-in, it’s a roller coaster ride, especially when it involves Furutech NCF components. I will get to a meaningful comparison when my system settles in but these two DACs have different flavor - I will not say more but at a high level, Mojo is more of denser, Musetec is more airy. However, take these with a grain of salt and my opinion might changes later. |
@brbrock For what it’s worth, some of DACs I owned, PS Audio Direcstream, Denafrips Terminator, Mytek Brooklyn, Mivera Purestream, Matrix Audio Element X (excellent measuring DAC), 4 Lampizator models (Amber 3, Baltic 3, Baltic 4, Atlantic TRP), Aqua La Scala, Musetec 005 and now the X SE. My plan going forward is to upgrade the X SE to NC and then also get the 006 (I am very much fascinated by the choice of parts and design). |
I never owned the Gaia, but I did own the Hermes and had problems with it requiring me to send it back to Denafrips, although that may have been a fluke. I do see the potential advantage of the Gaia DDC when using Denafrips' Terminator DAC since it offers the ability for clock syncing. I am not here to argue about sound quality between DDCs, and I am not promoting the Singxer SU-6 so I don't really have a dog in the fight, but I can say that inserting the Singxer did nothing to degrade the sound of my system and that it has worked reliably the entire time I have used it. Here are links to review measurements of both the Singxer SU-6 and the Denafrips Gaia by the same reviewer. The SU-6 was reviewed a couple of months prior to the Gaia and below are some conclusions by the reviewer,
and,
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I've seen Golden Sound's measurements, also ASR, another instance of measurements not telling you the true story. According to ASR $1k dacs are right up there with state of art, and dacs don't benefit from ddc. Sound quality is the final arbiter for my audio purchases and the equipment that comes and goes. |
By the way, being a curious person I decided to purchase Okto Dac some years ago, believe it held record at ASR for SNR at the time, one of the lowest jitter as well. And I owned Musetec 005 at the same time, relative poor measuring dac over there, Okto goes, Musetec stays, so much for ASR dac evaluations credibility, bye bye ASR. |
@wig - Thank you for the feedback. It has been satisfying to hear that several folks have used the information from this thread to successfully help with their DAC purchasing decisions. I really enjoyed my time with the Merason DAC1 MkII and I am not surprised to hear that it is an end-game DAC for some. I just found out that I may be getting the opportunity to try out a couple of additional DACs, which I will report on. I can’t say much yet except that one will be at the $10K +/- price point and the other at the sub-$4k price point.
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@mitch2 Although I am very pleased with my new Mojo Mystique X-24AM (which is a product that I was completely unaware of until you did this fantastic writeup of the 6-dac comparison) I’ll look forward to reading your write-ups on the upcoming dac’s. I’m not one to hop from one piece of gear to the next. I do my research, audition, and then select the piece that gives me the emotional connection to the music. When I get it right, I tend to keep that piece for decades. The X-24AM will be that piece for me. However, I still enjoy reading about what else is out there and hearing the passion that people have in their gear and the music that touches their souls. Thank you for introducing me to the Mojo! Best wishes, Don |
@mitch2 Thanks so much for the DM. As expected, your advice/perspective was 100% on the money. Will post once I make the next move (if there is a next move) Many thanks, JAMES. |
Some updates:
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Hey @mitch2 Looking forward to your thoughts on the Mystique Y -- although I believe the AM chokes put that DAC to about twice the MSRP of the Benchmark DAC3 HGC? Best, JAMES. |
This is my first post on Audiogon. Been lurking for a while as I have returned to audio after a significant break (career, kid, family, other priority hobbies/sports, etc). I just wanted to say THANK YOU! for all your efforts on this review. It is greatly appreciated and impressive to say the least. Fantastic to be able to get a POV across so many products and the few that I have heard align with your assessment so it is a valuable reference point for me. Thank you so much! |
@dantaudio - Thanks for the kind words, and welcome back to audio. If you are looking for information, there is a lot of knowledge here on this site and you can get meaningful responses from the members on just about any topic. The forum archives are also extensive and cover just about any audio topic. Since you have just "returned to audio after a significant break", you might enjoy spending some time looking at the virtual systems since many members have constructed unique listening spaces and very effective audio reproduction systems at a wide range of price points. |
@wig I finally got to spend some time with the Merason MkII DAC, and have to say that it is, as @mitch2 reports, a real winner. While I didn’t do a side-by-side with my Mojo Mystique X ’24, and the associated gear in our shop (Alma Music + Audio in Sterling, VA) was a good bit higher end than what I’ve got at home -- we’re running it through Stenheim’s excellent Alumine 5 speakers and a Vitus Audio Signature Series Integrated -- the delivery, depth, texture, speed, and detail were all just insanely good. I believe what you have on your hands is a real keeper. I’m still delighted with my Mojo purchase, and it’s sounding better and better as it continues to burn in (140+ hours now and counting), but I think you’re just fine with what you’ve got. Both of these manufacturers are to be commended for designing & building truly superlative products at a premium, but still reasonably affordable, price. Happy New Year, and happy listening! |
@wig - I agree, the Merason DAC1 MkII was a hard one to give up. I would have liked to keep it but just had too many DACs here. The Mojo EVO Pro was also hard to give up and the buyer received a very nice DAC with the Z-chips. Benjamin checked it out and adjusted it as-needed to as-new tolerances and then shipped it directly to the buyer. I remain happy with the Mojo X SE NCZ in my main system and the SMc DAC-2 GT-24 in a back-up role when I want to hear a Delta Sigma type DAC. Since I am done comparing different DACs, I have removed the Singxer SU-6 from the signal chain and now directly feed the X SE by USB directly through the USB output of my Sig Rendu SE Deluxe. I recently compared the S/PDIF outputs of the DDC and the Sonore ultraDigital converter. The sonic performance from using all of these input methods into the X SE is close, but if I had to rate them I would probably put the direct streamer to DAC USB connection at the top, followed by S/PDIF out of the Sonore ultraDigital converter, and then S/PDIF from the DDC. However, I would not bet on being able to reliably discern a difference if I were listening blind. I also have a clocked USB filter coming here in the next week or so that I will try. Next up, Benjamin is supposed to send me a Mystique Y to hear but otherwise I am done with DACs for now unless I find something interesting. It seems the next significant upgrade/change from Mojo Audio will probably be in 2026, with a Mystique Z DAC based on the BB PCM58 chips. Happy New Year all! |
@mitch2 First let me thank you for taking the time to put this out there.
I was considering the Metrum. Can you describe as you move up to these more expensive DAC’s, what they offer over the cheaper NOS stuff? Nos still sounds like NOS but better in some way? Or is it more just a change in sound quality but not an improvement in absolute terms over the Metrum? Would like to hear your review of the HOLO if you ever get one.
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@mitch2 Hey Mitch just checking to see if you are still getting the Mystique Y and if you have had a chance to listen to it yet? |
@cdc - I liked the Metrum DACs, and I liked the sound of the Pavane better than the Adagio (I compared them side by side for a while). They use DAC chips that Cees designed and had manufactured. His earlier DACs used industrial chips. The Metrum DACs definitely sound like R2R DACs but they don't share quite the same organic texture as the Mojo Audio DACs, IMO. The Metrum DACs are quite clean sounding for R2R and moving up their line adds body and drive, IME. I still have their Jade serving as DAC and VC in my outdoor system. You should try and hear one. @brbrock - As far as I know I am still supposed to be getting a Mystique Y. I thought it would be here by now so I should check in with Benjamin to find out what's up. @wig - Thank you! |
@brbrock - Mojo Audio Mystique Y AM ($4,999) is in the house and playing music. I don't know if I will go into the depth in writing about it that I did with the others but, it sounds pretty darn good right out of the gate. I basically transitioned directly from my (twice as expensive +) Mystique X SE NCZ DAC to the Mystique Y using the exact same system set-up, and my initial impression is that I didn't really give up much in the transition. I have been playing with quite a few different IC and speaker cables here lately and having this DAC will be an interesting test of how I can optimize the sound of the Mystique Y AM DAC by changing a cable or two. |
@mitch2 That is good to here that you have the MojoY. Keep me updated as you get more hours on it. |
Benjamin from Mojo Audio again... I did want to mention a few things about our Mystique Y. First of all, Mitch has the middle-priced Mystique Y AM with amorphous core chokes. If he had our Mystique Y NC with nano crystal core chokes the sound quality would have been even closer to his Mystique X NC Z. The reason is that aside from the single USB input and the AD1865 vs AD1862 DAC chips, the two DACs are nearly identical: identical USB input...identical power supplies...identical direct-coupled class A output stage...identical component parts quality...nearly identical chassis. MSRP on the Mystique Y AM that Mitch has is $5,499 whereas retail on the Mystique X NC Z he has was $12,499. So the Mystique Y AM is less than 45% the price. Our entry-level Mystique Y Fe with ferrous core chokes is only $3,999 which would be less than 1/3 the price of Mitch's Mystique X NC Z. Quite an exceptional value if like most of our customers all you use is the USB input. |
@mitch2 Hey Mitch how does the new DAC sound? I know it is suppose to be a tad more lively. Does the Mystique Y still beat the other DAC's you spoke about in the thread? |
The Mystique Y sounds good in my system. I am working on a write-up to post here but been a bit busy lately with regular life stuff. I will try to finish and post something this weekend. As a preview, no real surprises. Benjamin has been a straight shooter about both how good it sounds and the comparative differences between the Y and the X SE. |
I have always considered a "perfect measuring" DAC like the Benchmark as something a mastering engineer would use. Providing a baseline of clarity and evenness so the engineer can add the "flavors". In some regards, I would think an audiophile would want similar in their own system. The owner THEN can add their "own" flavor thru tone controls, warm/bright components, etc. However, most audiophiles have an existing system and need a digital source that fits in with their existing system where a "perfect measuring" Dac may overcompensate for some sound characteristics (warm/bright/lean, etc) Plus, with all that, we have the listener's room and their own personal Hearing abilities. The same with all of the reviewers out in youtube, internet or audio publication land. If we saw professional hearing test readouts with every reviewer, we may look at their opinions quite differently.
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The state of the art measuring DACs are great if you have a balanced room and a balanced system...most of us don't have that. Less precise DACs give us a softer sound...rounder edges...they are more forgiving and can add meat to the bone. Similar to but much more subtle to what a First Watt amp does...these DACs are art and can add beauty to a recording.
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A few words about the Benchmark DAC3 HGC. The Benchmark is like an elusive concept for me. How can a DAC that provides "state-of-the-art measured performance" not sound perfect and, why doesn’t it sound like every other DAC that provides "state-of-the-art measured performance"?
I am currently playing Benjamin’s Mystique Y AM in my system and I have been comparing it to my Mystique X SE NCZ. For personal calibration purposes I pulled the Benchmark out the other day, let it warm up, and then listened. I was amazed at how comparatively flat and sort-of lifeless it sounded. Sure, it played music, the bass was low, the highs were all there, it didn’t distort the sound, and it wasn’t noisy. However, sort of like fabric on a chair after too much time in a sunny spot, it simply didn’t "pop". Compared to Mojo Audio’s DACs, the Benchmark wasn’t as much fun because it didn’t express the same sense of body, fullness, depth, and tonal color. Does this mean the Mojo Audio DACs are distorting the truth to the benefit of listening enjoyment? Benjamin would probably say not, but, maybe. Hey, so what, they sound better! The other thought I had was about the Tambaqui, which is another DAC that supposedly provides "state-of-the-art measured performance".
Why then, is my recollection of the Tambaqui’s sound so different than what I hear from the Benchmark, when they both provide "state-of-the-art measured performance"? I remember a greater level of purity, refinement, and musical involvement from the Tambaqui than I hear from the Benchmark. At the time I owned it, I felt the Tambaqui was arguably "perfect sounding." I wouldn’t say that about the Benchmark, which doesn’t really do anything wrong, but just isn’t that exciting or fulfilling for me. Ultimately, I sold the Tambaqui when I decided that its version of "perfect sounding" wasn’t really doing it for me - you know, the old Jack Nicholson thing about handling the truth. I like the extra meat on the bones, tonal color, and physicality of the Mojo Audio DACs. I typically tell folks "buy what you like", and so I did. |
I look at it like this: there are probably a hundred variable involved in sound quality that the human ear / mind can perceive and only ten or so have measurements. So there is enormous room for variability. We are only measuring the big stuff. There is reproduction of sound at each frequency, how different frequencies interact, attack and decay... it goes on and on. This is why after my first couple years in high end audio I stopped looking at measurements (with a few exceptions on amps and speakers) and just listen or read the qualitative stuff. Just a couple comments about myself I was trained as a scientist and worked as such for ten years. I am always a scientist at heart... I have a home seismograph, weather station, pollution sensors. I track all my vital health variables, blood pressure, heart rate, VO2...etc. So, I am very pro analytical when it is useful... it is not very useful for high end audio. |
So true. I had a chance to demo the Mystique XSE and to my ears, in my room, with my gear, It was a stunning disappointment. The unit was used but in great shape. I just shipped it back to Hawthorne Stereo in Seattle so if anyone here is looking for one, they should still have it.
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In my view, it would be a mistake to base your decision on my experience. This is my entire point -- it’s not only subjective in terms of how you hear and what you like but room and system dependent. How can you possibly assume that we have any of the above in common? I suspect, judging from what I’ve read about the Mystique, that I’m likely an outlier. If you are seriously interested and want to save a bunch of money, I would check it out. If you have not done much research, then maybe not. Someone’s going to get a terrific deal.
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Mojo Audio Mystique Y AM DAC (warning – long) Perspective: Just about everything in this audio hobby, like most things in life, is related to perspective, developed through one’s experiences and other factors. Since none of us are starting from exactly the same place with respect to our individual perspective, what we hear from a component or system, and how that makes us feel, cannot be universally described or consistently interpreted. Thus lies the problem with reliably conveying and understanding the intent of an equipment review. When listening to a Mojo Audio digital audio converter (DAC), first-time listeners may focus on the organically natural sound and rich tonal qualities that transcend what they have previously heard from digital equipment. Several first-time reviewers of Mojo Audio DACs have expressed these impressions in their written reviews. Those of us who have owned Mojo Audio DACs and heard various models, may be more aware of the differences as the line has moved forward. My first listen to the Mojo Audio Mystique v3 created a more life-like musical experience in my home than I had previously experienced through other converters. As the basic design progressed through the Mystique EVO Pro, each step improved on the very successful combination of rich tonality, sweet treble, dimensionality, and full powerful bass. The EVO Pro may have sounded a bit rounded and colored (in a good way), and the bass a bit full-sounding vs. defined, but the overall result was very analog-like and certainly pleasing to hear, at least to me. The X SE continued the evolution of the brand down a path toward higher resolution, and the implementation of the special Z-version of the AD 1862 chips, as well as nano-crystalline (NC) core chokes, further refined the sound in the X SE NCZ model I currently own. Trade-offs: Another audiophile conundrum is the desire, yet inability, to “have it all.” As it is, most of our audio gear balances resolution vs. warmth, leading edge incisiveness vs. melodic harmonics, full-bodied vs. tightly damped bass, a tonally bright and airy vs. warm and dense sound signature, a dynamic vs. relaxed presentation, and the list goes on. No one audio component is going to float everyone’s boat equally. Therefore, I find it more helpful to look for audio gear that provides a sound I enjoy with the music I listen to, rather than search for perfect sounding gear. In other words, I don’t need the exact truth if I can have a version that sounds good to me. Seasonings: Of course, any individual piece of kit must be inserted into a system, where it plays with all the other pieces in a specific room, as part of a whole. The peripherals involved in an individual system, including tweaks, room treatments, supports, cables, and more, all make a difference in how things sound, to varying degrees. While these “seasonings” may not fundamentally change the sound of a component, speakers, or an entire system, they may indeed affect the overall satisfaction one has with what they hear their system. Most of us have our systems set up for the gear that we own, meaning the tweaks, the cables, and other factors are already optimized to provide the sound we want from the gear we have. Therefore, replacing a single existing component can be an uphill battle for the new component, sort of like being the new kid at school and having to prove yourself without having the home field advantage. I am fortunate to have on-hand a variety of cables and cable choices, like a cupboard of seasonings, each offering a unique perspective, or shading, on how things sound. My system also allows the use of fully single-ended (RCA) cabling, fully balanced (XLR) cabling, and any combination between. During the process of listening to the Mystique Y AM, I took the opportunity to try a variety of types and makes of cables. Introduction: I have spent about a month with Benjamin Zwickel’s Mojo Audio Mystique Y DAC with amorphous core chokes (Y AM). You can research the specific technical and physical aspects of the Mystique Y DAC on the Mojo Audio website, and by reading Ken Redmond’s review of the Mystique Y NC in Tracking Angle, or Howard Milstein’s review of the Mystique Y (both NC and FE versions) in The Sound Advocate. Both Redmond and Milstein have also reviewed versions of Mojo Audio’s Mystique X DAC. Having heard both, as I have, provides them an enhanced perspective on the comparisons between the Mystique Y and the more expensive Mystique X. My experience with Mojo Audio has been that Benjamin continually pushes his personal envelope to create better performing, better sounding, and correspondingly higher priced DACs. The X DAC was sort of a sideways step from the EVO Pro, as the X was originally created to solve a supply chain problem by replacing the large, harder to get, coated/damped aluminum chassis used with the EVO Pro for a more available and economical extruded (X) aluminum chassis that is used with all the Mystique X and Y DAC versions. However, that seemingly sideways step actually ended up moving the ball forward based on the lower noise floor and other sonic improvements resulting from shorter signal paths, better anti-resonance topologies, improved parts, and other factors. You can read earlier in this thread about my comparisons between the Mystique X SE NCZ DAC that I currently own and the (full-size chassis) EVO PRO that I previously owned (that also used Analog Devices AD1862-Z chips). I ultimately kept the X SE NCZ and sold the EVO PRO, although sometimes I wish I still had both. The Mystique Y is the newest DAC in the Mojo Audio stable and is unique from a few perspectives. First, the Mystique Y DAC is sort of a step backwards in that it is less expensive (by about half) compared to the current line-up of Mojo Audio DACs. The second unique aspect of the Mystique Y is that it has only one (USB) input. As a result, according to Benjamin, Mojo Audio was “able to greatly simplify the digital circuitry because there was no need for an input selector, demultiplexer, or S/PDIF receiver. The AD1865 R-2R DAC chip is directly fed by the USB input module." Third, the Mystique Y uses a different digital to analog processing chip. Beginning with the Mystique v3, the Mojo Audio DACs have used the Analog Devices AD1862 DAC chip. The Mystique Y breaks rank and uses an AD1865 chip, as discussed in a post by Benjamin earlier in this thread and in more depth on the Mojo Audio website. Other than the type of Analog Devices DAC chip and the single vs. multiple inputs, the Y and X DACs are reportedly quite close in both their circuit designs and component parts. You can read Benjamin’s post in this thread from Feb 16, that explains the Mystique Y is priced at three levels, starting at $3999 for the entry model with ferrous core chokes (Y FE), moving to $5,499 for the model I have been listening to here that has amorphous core chokes (Y AM), and topping out at $6,999 for the (Y NC) model using the same nano crystal core chokes that are in my Mystique X SE NCZ, which retailed for $12,499. DAC Chips: The Mystique Y uses an Analog Devices AD1865 DAC chip while the Mystique X uses two AD1862 DAC chips. While there are many factors affecting the sound of a DAC, because the Y and X DACs are quite similar other than the DAC chip used, I suspect the different chips used in these DACs are a significant factor influencing the sonic differences I hear between them. SoundBsessive have posted a DAC Chips List with comments on many of the commonly used NOS chips. In their opinion, the 20-bit AD1862 chips used in the Mystique X are “one of the world’s best audio” while the 18-bit AD1865 chip used in the Mystique Y is a “very good multibitnik, 2 DACs in one case (stereo)”. They seem to hold the AD1862 in higher esteem than the AD1865 but rank them both highly. The reason for two AD1862 chips in the Mystique X is because the AD1862 is not a stereo chip like the AD1865, of which only one is needed in the Mystique Y. Examples of other manufacturers using the AD1865 chip in their current DAC offerings include, Aries Cerat at one end of the price spectrum, that uses two independent banks of eight R2R matrixes (16 total) Analog Devices AD1865N-K chips in current mode in their $19,000 Helene DAC, and Linear Tube Audio at the other end, where their $3,950 LTA Aero DAC uses a single AD1865 chip, like the Mystique Y. Ken Redmond described his perception of the sonic differences between the two Analog Devices chips in his Tracking Angle review of the Mystique Y NC where he said, “The sonic differences between the two chips are subtle but noticeable. The 18-bit [AD1865] chip [in the Mystique Y] sounds energetic and exciting, while the 20-bit [AD1862] chip [x2 in the Mystique X] sounds more harmonically dense and liquid. Both units [the Mystique Y and X] have excellent flow and timing that sets them apart from many other DACs. A choice between the two may come down to the important consideration of system synergy.” I would add that the type of music you enjoy may also play a part in which of these DACs you will appreciate more. In his The Sound Advocate review of the Mystique Y, Howard Milstein also discussed the differences he heard between the two chips by saying, “Because of the AD1865 DAC chip in the Mystique Y, it can sound a “tad” livelier, and a tiny bit more transparent, with a touch more dynamism in its overall character. On the other hand, because of the AD1862 DAC chip in the Mystique X, the X has slightly more liquidity, texture, and harmonic content. This can be summarized as a sound that is a bit denser, and slightly more texture-filled with playback content that exhibits a bit more concert hall realism.” Milstein’s description borrows from Benjamin Zwickel’s own opinion of the sound on hand from the two chips, as stated on the Mojo Audio website and summarized as; lively, dynamic, and transparent (AD1865) vs. liquid, textured, and harmonic (AD1862). Listening: I have added some tunes by Susan Tedeschi to my test playlist that I used to compare the DACs previously discussed in this thread. Her inaugural “Just Won’t Burn”, follow-up “Wait for Me” and “Live from Austin, TX” albums all display her emotion-packed vocals ranging from sweet and pure, to hard and gravelly, depending on the tune, as well as great sounding guitar playing, percussion, piano, Hammond B3 organ, and the occasional harmonica. Her music serves as a good source for comparing components in my system because of the variety of tempo, tone, and drive, and because I enjoy listening to it. The Mystique Y AM consistently shone a light on slower smoother songs like “Blues on a Holiday,” where the Y DAC highlighted the smoothness and rich tonal qualities of Tedeschi’s voice. The organ, piano, and guitar on the live version of “Wait for Me” were rich and vibrant, and the piano solo left me wanting to hear more. I noticed no compromises when the pace and volume picked up. Back to my traditional test tracks, the lead-in bass on “Birds” by Dominique Fils-Aime’ displayed the level of impact I hear from most of the more expensive DACs I have had through here, and her breathy voice sounded great, as did the back-up singers. From Astrud’s wonderful voice on “The Girl from Ipanema,” to the signature beat on Steely Dan’s “Babylon Sisters”, the ruggedly pure early James Taylor vocals, and horn section, on “Steamroller Blues”, and Sara Bareilles’ silky smooth, emotionally charged, vocals as they climbed to her crescendo on “Gravity”, all of those selections were enjoyable to listen to through the Mystique Y AM in my system. To close out my listening, I rocked out for a while to Soundgarden, Neil Young/Crazy Horse, Chili Peppers, Audioslave, and Nirvana. IMO, the Mystique Y handled the harder rock music just fine. I heard no congestion, straining, or thinning out under the load of the hard-hitting rock tunes and especially engaging was hearing and feeling the beat underpinned with solid Mojo Audio bass. I would not hesitate to recommend the Mystique Y AM as a good choice for those who listen primarily to rock. Clearly, the Mystique Y AM was an enjoyable visitor in my system. Was it the perfect guest, I would say pretty close in that the timbre, tone, dynamics, and solid bass drive that make listening to music fun were all there on the variety of music I threw at it. These are the signature attributes of all the Mojo Audio Mystique DACs I have heard, starting with the Mystique v3. The solid bass provides a platform for the richly textured midrange and smooth treble. The Mystique Y wears the same team colors. During its stay, the Mystique Y AM basically did nothing wrong, no discernable sibilance, excess noise, tinny, muffled, or boomy sound, so, basically no party fouls. Pretty much all good stuff from the Mystique Y AM, especially at the price point. So, is the Mystique Y AM the perfect DAC for my system and tastes? Certainly a top contender at the price point. However, I didn’t hear quite the depth of soundstage or tonal saturation that I hear from my Mystique X SE NCZ, and that I have heard from a couple of the other more expensive DACs that have been through here. Those improved qualities related to soundstage depth and tone I hear when listening to the Mystique X SE NCZ, increase the sense of musical realism and result in an even greater level of listening enjoyment, beyond what I hear from the Y AM, and other DACs I have had here that were in the $4-7K price range. Comparison to the X SE NCZ: It seems a rather high bar for a company to encourage comparisons between their flagship component and the newcomer at around half the price. However, based on my listening, I agree with the two reviewers, and with Benjamin himself, that the sonic signature from the two DACs is mostly cut from the same cloth, and not all that far apart. Since both Ken Redmond and Howard Milstein reviewed various versions of both the Mystique X and the Mystique Y DACs, I suggest also going back and reading their described comparisons between the two. To my ears, the Mystique Y AM displays a dense, natural, organic flavor that is similar to the five other Mojo Audio DACs I have owned. The presentation supports the perception of how music sounds in real life, with vibrant tonal colors, engaging dynamics, and strong bass. The melodies are smooth, and the harmonics are balanced. The soundstage is not overblown or underdone, although it doesn’t show quite the depth that I hear from the X SE NCZ. The Mystique Y AM displays a sense of energy in the upper midrange and high frequencies that leads to a slightly sharper sound in comparison to my Mystique X SE NCZ, from which I perceive a rounder, more physical sound with more body and musical flow, sweeter but less incisive high frequencies, and maybe a bit more resolution. As much as I respect and enjoy what the Mystique Y brings to the table, and especially at its price, in my opinion, the Mystique X SE NCZ is the current Mojo Audio flagship for a reason. In addition to the sonic attributes described above, hearing music from the X SE NCZ gave me a superior perception of ambience, of where the music was created and what is going on around the musicians, and greater physical depth. The Mystique Y AM provides those positive attributes too, just not to the same extent as the X SE NCZ. This is not faint praise when you consider that I have preferred the sound of the X SE NCZ over some pretty good DACs like the Mola Mola Tambaqui, the Merason DAC1 MkII, and Mojo Audio’s own well-reviewed EVO PRO. How much are the differences I hear between the X SE and the Y related to the implementation of the different DAC chips used in the two converters? I can’t answer that – you need to ask Benjamin. However, other than the chips and inputs, the two DACs apparently share most of the same construction features and parts. Therefore, as I understand it, there is not much else to be different. As others have reported, the two chips do apparently each have their own unique sonic signature. Also, maybe having a separate AD1862 chip for each channel (in the Mystique X SE NCZ) is beneficial in some way over using a single AD1865 stereo chip (in the Mystique Y AM), but again, you need to ask Benjamin. I cannot answer why I hear differences between the two DACs, but I do know the (over twice as expensive) X SE NCZ provides more of the type of sound I enjoy in my system. The good news is that the two DACs clearly represent the Mojo Audio house sound. While I believe the differences between the Mystique Y AM and the X SE NCZ are perceptible in a resolving system, in many systems the differences I have described would likely be considered different shades of the same color. In those systems, listeners would likely need to have both DACs in their system at the same time to reliably distinguish how they are different. I suggest looking at it like this - If you want a natural sounding DAC that enjoyably brings your reproduced music to life, try a Mojo Audio DAC. If you want one of the most enjoyable NOS R2R DACs available, look at the Mystique X SE in whatever variant you can afford. If you don’t have quite that much to spend, consider a version of the Mystique Y and enjoy that you are getting more than a taste of Mojo Audio’s top DAC for a much lower price. Comparisons to Other Manufacturer’s DACs: I have a few comparative DACs here in the general price range, including my SMc Audio DAC2 GT-24 (around $6K), a Metrum Acoustics Jade (around $3K), and a Benchmark DAC3 HGC (around $2,400). Two I would have liked to directly compare are the Linear Tube Audio LTA Aero (around $4K) and the Merason DAC1 MkII ($8,500) but, unfortunately, those last two have been gone from my DAC garage for months now. The Jade is an R2R DAC while the Benchmark uses the delta-sigma conversion architecture so there are basic differences between those two similarly priced DACs. Both of them are clean and articulate sounding in my system. However, what I hear from the Mystique Y AM is a more natural, realistic type sound than what I hear from either the Jade or the Benchmark, based on the Mojo DAC’s greater tonal color and dynamics. In my opinion, the Jade is a bit more musical than the Benchmark, which can tend toward “clinical” sounding. Based on my sonic tastes, I would choose the Mystique Y AM over either the Jade or the Benchmark. I wish I still had the LTA Aero DAC here since buyers in the $4-$6K price range may be looking at both the overachieving Aero and the Mystique Y. Being biased toward the Mojo Audio house sound, and comparing what I hear from the Mystique Y AM with my recollection of how the LTA Aero sounded in my system, I suspect out of those two I would personally choose the Mystique Y. However, I can certainly understand some buyers choosing the LTA Aero, as I remember being impressed by the clarity and dynamics I heard from the Aero, as I reported in my write-up earlier in this thread where I said it provides a “vivid presence and a dynamic sense of realism.” I would strongly suggest buyers looking at the Aero also look at the Mystique Y, in whatever configuration they can afford since they are both strong choices. However, I suspect the sonic differences between the Aero and the Mystique Y will result in buyers having a clear preference for one over the other, rather than it being a tight choice between the two. While I would choose the Mystique Y, they both sounded good in my system and either choice would be a win. Also, remember that both manufacturers offer buyers liberal trial/return periods of 45-days for Mojo Audio and 30-days for Linear Tube Audio, so there is no reason not to have the DAC that sounds best in your system. I still own the SMc Audio DAC2 GT-24 with its CS4328 chip (“good odnobitnik” according to SoundBsessive). Since the DAC2 is a delta-sigma DAC, the comparison to the Mystique Y AM is sort of apples to oranges. The SMc DAC plays a bit smoother and a little more open sounding than the R2R DACs but slightly less organic, dense, and natural sounding, not unlike other delta-sigma DACs I have heard. It doesn’t quite display the smooth, refined, analog-like sound that the Merason DAC1 MkII did when it was here, but the SMc DAC2 is actually more engaging to me based on its good drive, body, and tonal color. A choice between the SMC DAC2 and the Y AM would be a close call for me and would require me to spend more time with each. Wrap: To close, the Mystique Y AM DAC is another winner for Benjamin, and for Mojo Audio. It is a naturally musical sounding DAC that compares well with other DACs in the $5-6K price range, and above. It displays the Mojo Audio house sound with hard-hitting bass, a rich midrange, smooth treble and big macro dynamics, all leading toward an organically dense, natural, and engaging sonic treat at the price point. In my opinion, the Mystique Y AM gives you about 85-90 percent of the sound of Mojo Audio’s current flagship, the Mystique X SE NCZ, that sits at a much higher price point. The NC version of the Mystique Y may be even closer, but I didn’t get to hear that version. Postscript Stuff: (If details and fine print aren’t your thing, here would be a good place to stop.) RCA/XLR Outputs and Cables: Benjamin has discussed that some of his customers believe the Mojo Audio DACs sound better from their single-ended (RCA) outputs. Fortunately, I was able to accommodate that configuration in my system by first trying the Mystique Y AM using single-ended cables extending all the way through my system, from the Y AM DAC output to the inputs of my SMc Audio monoblock amplifiers. I was not won over with the sound I heard through the single-ended connections. Later, I tried using single-ended cables only from the outputs of the Mystique Y AM DAC to the inputs of my volume control/preamp and then using balanced (XLR) cables for the remainder of the journey from the SMc preamp into the SMc monoblocks. What I heard, aligned with my previous experiences, and with the feedback I have received from SMc Audio, that the SMc Audio preamp to amplifier connection sounds best using balanced connections. My initial impression was that using the single-ended (RCA) outputs of the Y AM DAC may have sounded a bit smoother and more relaxed, but I eventually decided I was hearing a dulling down of the sound when using single-ended connections. In my system, and to my ears, using the RCA outputs resulted in the musical presentation having less tonal color and vibrancy. I was careful to level-match since using the single-ended outputs lowered the output voltage but, even then, reconnecting balanced cables to the outputs from the Y AM DAC restored a more vibrant and tonally rich sonic signature. I heard basically the same thing when trying my X SE NCZ DAC from its single-ended outputs. I suspect some of Benjamin’s customers do in fact hear good things from the RCA outputs of his DACs. Unfortunately, it just doesn’t work that way in my system and this recent experience reconfirmed that my system simply sounds better when played through the balanced connections. What I hear is likely related to the design of my other components and shouldn’t be used as a benchmark to judge how the Mystique Y DAC will sound in every system. To be thorough, I tried several different XLR (and RCA) cables out of the Mystique Y AM DAC, which confirmed my preference for the balanced outputs. Of the cables I have on-hand, Cardas Golden Reference XLR cables ended up as my favorites to use with the Mystique Y AM. They seemed to display the best body and tone, as well as deep bass, and they rounded the sound just a little. Conversely, through the Mystique X SE NCZ, the Cardas interconnects resulted in a presentation that was a little too dull compared with other balanced interconnects I have here. When selecting connections, the design of the individual components will affect how things sound when they are connected together. Cable choices, and the balanced/single-ended issue I encountered is certainly not a one-size fits all proposition. Is One USB Input Enough: I have played with DAC inputs quite a bit over the past 6 months. As a baseline, my Sonore Signature Rendu SE Deluxe (optical) streamer only has one (USB) output. I worked around that by adding a Singxer SU-6 DDC that allowed me to input the USB from the Sonore streamer into the DDC and then use multiple output options including AES/EBU, RCA, Toslink, or I2S (although I didn’t use I2S since none of the DACs on-hand had I2S inputs). After comparing most of the DACs involved in the earlier part of this thread, and completing my write-ups on those DACs, I began solely using the USB output of my streamer into the X SE NCZ DAC and later into the Mystique Y AM after that DAC arrived. I then added a Singxer UIP-1 PRO USB Interface to isolate the USB signal. Amir Majidimehr at Audio Science Review (ASR) reviewed the UIP-1 and concluded that it actually improved measurements when connected to certain gear, had little to no effect on other gear and, for most components, it probably isn’t necessary (not unlike most USB “decrapifiers”). In my system, I don’t reliably hear any differences, so it probably isn’t necessary but since it doesn’t seem to do anything wrong, I keep it plugged in. In my system, I believe the USB input into my X SE NCZ sounds best. I use the Network Acoustics Muon USB cable. That the USB input sounds best is obviously convenient since I have a streamer with only one (USB) output. However, of all the DACs I have owned, the ones that had USB inputs seemed to sound best that way, or at least as good as they sounded through the other inputs, including I2S. Therefore, I would be fine if Benjamin could improve the sound, and reduce the cost, of his upcoming Z DAC by having only one (USB) input. Maybe offer other inputs by special order? My System: My reference system for purposes of listening to the Mystique Y AM DAC is as outlined below and as posted on my Audiogon virtual system page. Racks and supports are either by Sound Anchors or consist of heavily reinforced wood furniture. Support platforms consist of either hardwood, constrained layer materials (i.e., Zoethecus Z-slabs), a carbon fiber BDR Shelf (under the DAC), and Silent Running Audio Ohio-Class XL+ bases under the amplifiers. Footers mostly consist of platinum silicone hemispheres sized for the weight of the components or speakers being supported. Cables are a variety of what I have found to sound best, including Cardas Golden Cross speaker cables, and interconnects ranging from Cardas Golden Reference to Furutech PCOCC, to Belden or DIY tinned copper cables. Power cords are by Isoclean, Furutech, Neotech, and DIY using Western Electric wire. The components are as follows:
Disclaimer (the fine print): The purpose of this thread was to provide one person’s perspective when comparing a variety of DACs in a relatively stable system. These writings are nothing more than biased observations and opinions by a hobbyist, and certainly should not be taken as a prediction or guarantee of how something will sound to another listener in their unique system with their unique music and listening preferences. To readers who plan to use the information from this thread to influence buying decisions, I strongly encourage you to also read other reviews and forum posts regarding the components you are interested in. Consider how the reviewer’s systems and listening preferences are similar and/or different from your own. Before you purchase a component, contact the seller to discuss any questions related to the technical design and construction, physical condition, and quality/estimated longevity of the component being considered. Inquire about, and obtain, the permissions and stipulations for a listening trial, if possible. Returning a component that doesn’t suit you, or your system, even at a monetary loss of the cost of shipping and restocking, is better than feeling stuck with something you don’t want. Once you receive your new component, be sure to give it time to warm up properly, give yourself time to acclimate to the sound of the new component, and try a few different things (cables, power, tweaks, etc.) to make sure you are hearing the component at its best in your system. After a week or so, try putting your previous component back in your system before making any final decisions. |
WOW! That's quite a review :^P To put my 2 cents in... I've had both our X and Y DACs in a variety of systems playing a variety of music. Depending on the specific system and the specific recording would depend on which one I prefer. And given the same chokes (ferrous, amorphous, or nano crystal core), depending on what cables you use, you could make each sound quite similar to the other. That only makes sense considering they are almost identical in circuit, power supplies, and parts quality, aside from the DAC chips. For those of you who are interested, we hope to release our new Mystique Z DAC sometime this summer. It will use the same 3" high chassis as our Mystique Y and will have 3 inputs (USB, coaxial, and optical). The Z will be built around the famous PCM58 DAC chip. Aside from the DAC chips, nearly all of the parts in our new Z will be identical to our X and Y DACs. But since we've made quite a few upgrades to all of the power supplies, expect an even lower noise floor, even darker background, even more transparency, and even more micro-details and micro-dynamics. Prices will range from $7,000-$11,000 depending on what options you get. Because we've had so many requests for pre-orders, we've decided to offer the first production run exclusively to existing Mojo customers who are trading in and upgrading their current DACs. If you're considering upgrading before the fall let us know ASAP so we can put you on the waiting list. Tim is going to get one of the first Mystique Z DACs to review...around the same time Tim gets a Z DAC to review we'll be shipping our first back orders. With our current number of back orders new customers may want to get on a waiting list if they are hoping to have delivery in early fall. |
One more thing... Single-ended vs balanced outputs is quite system dependent. Our balanced output is an additional stage following the single-ended output, so all things being equal, the single-ended output should sound better. But when are all things ever equal?!?!?!? As it states in our user manual, we suggest that you try both outputs in your system and decide for yourself. Generally speaking, our single-ended output will sound sweeter, will have better musical flow, better harmonic coherency, and have more emotional content. Generally speaking, our balanced output will have more intensity, dynamics, and gestalt. But as I mentioned, that is VERY system dependent. We have quite a few customers with fully balanced amplification who prefer our single-ended output and others who tell us our single-ended output sounds too soft and vague. In my personal experience some balanced amps don't do single-ended as well as balanced. |
@fuzzbutt17 Are you stepping away from the R2R DAC's with the PCM58 DAC chip. This is a Delta Sigma chip correct? How many PCM58 DAC chips are you going to use in the new Z DAC? I am excited to see what you have. |
@brbrock Read this on line…“The PCM58 DAC chip is a true multi-bit R2R (Resistor Ladder) DAC and not a Delta-Sigma DAC” |
We're never switching from R-2R to Delta Sigma. (I think I threw up a little in my mouth). The PCM58 is a 40-year-old Burr-Brown 18-bit R-2R DAC chip that was marketed as a direct competitor to the Analog Devices AD1865. It sounds and looks almost identical to the famous 20-bit PCM63. Both the PCM58 and PCM63 are about 4X the size of the AD1862 which I assume accounts for their higher level of performance. Not only are they significantly larger and sound slightly better than the Analog Devices DAC chips, the PCM58 potentially has 4X the number of linearity/distortion fine-tune adjustments. Where as the AD1862 and AD1865 each have one adjustment for the MSB (most significant bit) to optimize linearity and minimize distortion for each channel, the PCM58 has an adjustment for MSB, 2nd bit, 3rd bit, and 4th bit. No small difference. We've had quite a number of PCM58 and PCM63 DAC chips stashed away for over a decade. The reason we haven't designed a DAC with them is that in order to fine-tune linearity and minimize distortion you need to use a very sensitive and very expensive distortion analyzer which we didn't have at the time. We've even had our friend Brial Lowe, the genius behind Belleson regulators, design a custom low-noise amplifier and notch filter for us to assure that even the most subtle noise that could get through to the distortion analyzer from AC mains and RF would be eliminated allowing us to truly optimize these DAC chips to 20-bits of resolution. Here's the kicker.. Among other differences, the entry-level Mystique Z DAC will have only the fine-tune adjustment for the MSB, the middle-level Mystique Z will have the MSB and 2nd bit fine-tuned, and our top-of-the-line Mystique Z will have MSB, 2nd bit, 3rd bit, and 4th bit all fine-tuned. So rather than expecting that Mojo Audio is switching from R-2R to Delta-Sigma expect a level of R-2R performance from our Mystique Z unlike any company has ever offered. And expect a new version of our famous EVO DAC for around $17,000 to be released in 2027 built around Burr-Brown's famous PCM63 DAC chip. |
I look forward to hearing the Mystique Z with the PCM58 DAC chips based on my fond memories of the sound of a Lector CDP-7T/Mk II that I owned. The Mk II used BB PCM63 DAC chips while the CDP-7T/Mk III that I upgraded to used BB PCM1704 DAC chips. I posted this way back in 2008:
If you remember, many of us were chasing resolution back in those days, which is probably why I stupidly upgraded from the Mk II to the Mk III. I remember the guy who purchased my Mk II was an experienced audiophile and I believe an industry insider. He was thrilled to get the Mk II with its PCM 63 chips. I remember thinking that he may know something I didn't, and I was right! While I look forward to hearing the Mystique Z, the one I am most interested in hearing is the EVO DAC with the PCM63 DAC chips that Benjamin has proposed to release in 2027. I suspect that could be the one that will make me forget about my EVO Pro. |
