@mitch2 You certainly have major task in front of you here. I'm just in beginning process of comparing three different dacs, two being new purchases. What I've discovered is leveling the playing field is very difficult. I will be testing a single R2R dac to two sabre chip dacs, these sabre chip dacs usb likely to be optimal input, I2S for R2R. And then my system presently already optimized for usb, will be purchasing one of two top DDC;s in order to provide optimal I2S.
So, you're using Singxer SU-6 which I previously owned, while this is one ot the better DDC, there's still better out there, examples being Denafrips Gaia or Musician Phoenix. And then we have the question of optimizing usb inputs as well. Herein lies the problem when trying to compare dacs, optimizing inputs is the single largest variable in attempting to provide level playing field and extract maximum potential from all dacs.
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@mitch2 It would be greatly informative and appreciated if you could somehow procure a Musetec MH-DA006 for comparative review. I know you're aware of it and admiring of the technology. Problem is so many unaware of it. I recently purchased and compared to my previous reference, Musetec 005, also recently purchased Laiv Harmony. So, in my comparisons of these three dacs I found 006 simply plays on a different level, a level of resolution/transparency the others can't compete with. In my mind this plays at a level of Mola Mola Tambaqui which I will procure in due time.
In any case, would be informative as how this much technology at this relatively ridiculous low price would compare to dacs you have on hand. I'd suggest with a fairly high degree of certainty the 006 would do quite well. Now, I would add, perhaps this exact presentation may not be everyone's cup of tea, being I own the Harmony and very much appreciate the unique R2R NOS presentation.
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@mitch2 Absolutely agree with the notion that we need some time to adjust our perceptions when evaluating new equipment coming into system. I've often been incorrect in initial perspectives or judgements in this regard, longer term evaluation has long been my gold standard for decisions on which equipment stays.
I've long thought having multiple reference audio systems would be nirvana, each would present a unique presentation for whatever mood you were in. No doubt I'd be implementing delta sigma, R2R and FPGA dacs in these systems.
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@no_regrets I thought of that at time I made post. Problem is I'm still in process of evaluating 006, burning in dac along with adjusting my perspectives and perceptions will take some time. Also, I'd expect @mitch2 has his hands full with dacs already on hand, I could never attempt that large a task, two dacs is a handful for me. However, a loan could be a consideration somewhere down the road if I feel the need to provide 006 with more exposure.
Issue is Musetec really misses the boat on marketing their products. Look at what Laiv does with their Harmony dac, multiple youtube videos and professional reviews within months of release which leads to relatively large number of sales. Denafrips another brand that understands how to market to the west.
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@mitch2 How long are your listening sessions with any one particular dac? Sometimes certain aspects of sound quality don't become clear to me with only short listening sessions. Longer sessions may expose very subtle anomalies of all kinds leading to a more analytical response and/or listener fatigue.
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Based on my research the Mojo dacs have the technology to be top tier, chokes in power supply, nude Vishay resistors, I use both choked linear power supply for some of my streaming components and nude Vishay in my present 300B amps, have used them in my previous Art Audio 845 amp and a totally modded dac. Both provide an easily heard upgrade over commonplace cap based PS and resistors. Totaldacs should also be top tier, very impressive technology there as well.
One thing I find curious is Linear Tube Audio rather agnostic take on digital inputs. I've always been of a mind that I2S should provide best sound quality with ladder dacs. Still, gets very nice reviews. I've yet to try I2S with my Laiv Harmony so I'm just surmising at this point (only usb at this point).
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@mitch2 Your results correlate with previous reviews I've seen for most of these dacs. Really appreciate the greater detail and comparative nature of your review vs previous I've seen. Of these dacs, the Mojo's have long been on my list of 'want to hear' dacs, your more thorough reviews of these dacs have increased my interest.
One thing I'd take issue is“Delta-Sigma DACs, which comprise over 95% of the DAC chips sold today, do not actually “decode” the bit stream but rather "interpolate" it. They take in the digital bit stream faster than the music is playing, analyze it, noise shape it, error correct it, interpolate what they think the musical signal was supposed to look like, and then output a flawless waveform. Not quite the waveform which was quantized, but a very smooth and very even waveform. That is why Delta-Sigma DACs sound so smooth and refined. This is also why Delta-Sigma DACs have an advantage when playing mediocre sources such as music streamed from the internet.”,
Don't have issue with the technical aspect of explanation, issue is with the generalization of delta sigma dacs as smooth. Based on my ownership of numerous delta sigma dacs, and extensive number of reviews of these dacs delta sigma dacs most often described as incisive, extremely detailed, the complete opposite of smooth. R2R dacs are most often described as quite the opposite of delta sigma, these described as most natural, easy going, relaxed. And this is what I hear with my Laiv Harmony vs Musetec's and previous delta sigma. And I don't mean to suggest delta sigma can't be refined, its simply the characterization of being smooth. IME delta sigma dacs get their bad reputation from masses of cheap Chinese dacs that measure well and sound cold and clinical.
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I find it extremely curious Mojo doesn't provide I2S input. On one hand I understand optimizing usb inputs as seems to be de facto output on most streamers. On the other, why do the extra conversion vs. native I2S path in dacs?
Recently I purchased Denafrips Gaia in order to compare I2S vs usb in various dacs. With my Laiv Harmony I2S via Gaia was far superior to usb. Now its fair to say, based on descriptors, usb implementation in Mystique superior to Harmony, so difficult to extrapolate here.
A fairer comparison of I2S vs usb will be with Musetec 006 which has more greatly optimized usb vs the Harmony, something along lines of Mojo. While I understand this is only a single aspect of usb implementation, both Harmony and Mojo use femto clock, Gaia has superior OXCO clock, I believe large part of improved sound quality I"m getting with Harmony slaved to Gaia clock is due to the improved clocking. Seems to me Mojo should at least offer I2S, easy to implement as its native path, doesn't need all the usb complexity. In any case, I'll be comparing better usb in Musetec vs I2S in coming weeks.
Keep in mind I have very similar usb implementation as @mitch2 as I also use full Sonore optical conversion, in other words OpticalRendu is the streamer with usb out, usb optimized in both our setups.
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Agree with debjit_g, implementation is key. No doubt some optimized usb can be superior to less than optimized I2S. I've tried a wide variety of usb optimizations over the years, some better than others, same with dac implementation of usb. I'd suggest people look at the sophistication of usb implementation in my latest dac, Musetec MH-DA006, this not some cheapo chifi usb implementation, prior Musetec 005 used lesser Amamero implementation, Italians, 006 improves on this.
It is true external I2S clocking is not theoretical best, clock is best closest to I2S pathway within dac. Still, external clock superiority could be such that downsides of clock distance are overcome. In any case max I2S cable length should be .5M, less would be better. I agree implementation of any clocking scheme is important, therefore, not all OXCO clocks or any clocks are equal. If going I2S route one should investigate quality of clock in dac vs clock in ddc or streamer.
By the way, there are some streamer manufacturers coming out with I2S outputs.
As to what output/input scheme is superior, I'll maintain I2S has some inherent advantages. Therefore, how can it be an advantage for the dac to have to extract data from clock, the same with conversion from usb or whatever to I2S native path.
Bottom line, all is conjecture until one has actually implemented these optimized streaming chains into their system. My present I2S setup was a great improvement over my optimized over many years usb setup, this with three dacs, many others report the same. A prior less than optimal I2S setup I had many years ago was NOT an improvement over usb.
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Rockna, Mola Mola Tambaqui couple more dacs with I2S.
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@mitch2 I previously owned Singxer SU6, this with Musetec 005, preferred usb over my OpticalRendu vs I2S with the Singxer. Now have Denafrips Gaia with Tubulus Ximius .5M cable, prefer I2S vs usb for both Laiv Harmony and Musetec 006. This with a much improved usb board in 006 vs the Amamero in 005, Harmony usb nothing special.
Gaia superior to Singxer in usb isolation on input and implementation of OXCO clock on I2S. Singxer SU6 as good as it is, simply doesn't play in same universe, build quality, design, parts quality in Gaia all far superior. Meaningful improvement in sound quality reflects this superiority, and the Tubulus cable I'm using provides another substantial and meaningful improvement. A lesser optimization of I2S than this may change equation of which interface superior.
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By the way, being a curious person I decided to purchase Okto Dac some years ago, believe it held record at ASR for SNR at the time, one of the lowest jitter as well. And I owned Musetec 005 at the same time, relative poor measuring dac over there, Okto goes, Musetec stays, so much for ASR dac evaluations credibility, bye bye ASR.
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I've seen Golden Sound's measurements, also ASR, another instance of measurements not telling you the true story. According to ASR $1k dacs are right up there with state of art, and dacs don't benefit from ddc. Sound quality is the final arbiter for my audio purchases and the equipment that comes and goes.
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@debjit_g +1 Exactly! Is there an objective best with streaming components and chains, streaming is the wild west these days, so many devices and ways to implement these devices. Only with direct comparisons within one's own system could we begin to develop a hierarchy for so many designs, implementation of those designs. And still, that hierarchy may only hold for that individual. I've read plenty of white papers over at Audiophilestyle forum, the rationale and logic makes sense, does it result in higher sound quality? Sometimes yes and sometimes no, and this based on anecdotal evidence from any number of users. And then we make our choices, add our voices, and so it goes.
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I2S also superior with Laiv Harmony. This anecdotal evidence based on my individual and unique streaming setup. I continue to not make any universal claims beyond the possible benefit of not having to detour around the other interfaces.
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Usb wasn't developed as an interface between streamers and dacs, this interface has no inherent advantage over I2S. I2S interface not universally used due to the fact I2S clock best placed closest to data lines. So, we can then all agree I2S clock in an external device not ideal. Now not being ideal doesn't necessarily mean it can't or won't be superior to usb or some other interface for any specific dac. My Musetec dac has a highly developed custom build usb board, far superior to what I see in vast majority of dacs, Laiv has far more pedestrian implementation, this approximates what I see in most. My specific streaming setup and implementation of both I2S AND USB interfaces provides me with superior results via I2S. I posit quality of any input interface INTO DDC is critical, output is only part of the equation. In direct comparisons of my optimized usb vs optimized I2S, I2S wins out. And I will continue to state YMMV, this just as others should admit.
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@fuzzbutt17 I'm using the same usb chain with both I2S and usb, so usb>dac vs usb>Denafrips Gaia DDC.I2S>dac.
Neither my Musetec or Laiv dacs promote I2S as superior, Musetec specifically promotes their custom build usb board, again, this one of the best I've seen. This build based on what they had learned via Amamero usb board used in prior model dac.
What pro's use not necessarily always superior. I'd not want a pro system for my home system. And based on mediocre and worse sound quality on so many recordings pro's not generally my reference for best sound quality.
Finally, I'm not stating I2S is universally superior to usb, it is superior in my setup, many other report the same.
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