Thanks. Don't recall whether I mentioned on this thread that I was ready to buy a Mojo DAC 2-3 years back but Benjamin recommended that I upgrade transport first, so that's what I did.
Six DAC Comparison
I am in the middle of comparing the sound of six different DACs in my system. I own them all (I know weird) but one of them is still within a trial/return timeframe.
Not to share specific comparisons today, but a couple of observations so far are that first, they all definitely sound different from each other. On one hand, they all sound pretty good and play what is fed to them without significant flaws but on the other hand there are definite sonic differences that make it easy to understand how a person might like the sound of some of them while not liking others.
Second, raises the observation that most of them must be doing something to shape the sound in the manner the designer intended since one of the DACs, a Benchmark DAC3 HGA, was described by John Atkinson of Stereophile as providing "state-of-the-art measured performance." In the review, JA closed the measurements section by writing, "All I can say is "Wow!" I have also owned the Tambaqui (not in my current comparison), which also measured well ("The Mola Mola Tambaqui offers state-of-the-digital-art measured performance." - JA). The Benchmark reminds me sonically of the Tambaqui, both of which are excellent sounding DACs.
My point is that if the Benchmark is providing "state-of-the-art measured performance," then one could reasonably presume that the other five DACs, which sound different from the Benchmark, do not share similar ’state-of-the-art" measurements and are doing something to subtly or not so subtly alter the sound. Whether a person likes what they hear is a different issue.
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Based on my careful reading of this extraordinary thread, I've reached out to Benjamin, and purchased a Mystique X '24. So hats off to @mitch2 for a really informative and thoughtful analysis of the top players in what can be considered the semi-affordable realm. Now the fun part: my CEC transport hooks up just fine via AES / EBU, but when attempting to override the internal DAC in my HiFi Rose 150B, the latter device refuses to recognize the new DAC. And yes, I've triple checked all the connections and selected USB out on the "in/out" selection panel; even swapped in a different cable to rule out a bad connection. Has anyone successfully overcome the Rose 150B's apparent inability to "see" the Mystique via USB? Or is my only option to pick up an RCA coax and avoid the USB connection altogether? Please do not suggest selling the Rose and picking up another streamer, as I'm pretty tapped out by this and a couple of other chunky purchases this year, and I rather like the touchscreen ease of ops on the Rose. If this is an inappropriate hijack, mods should feel free to delete. Thanks! |
@mitch2 phenomenal insight into these DACs. Appreciate your effort. Anyone using the Mojo Mystique know what USB receiver it uses ? I run an optimized Windows platform on my diy server and need Windows driver. Mojo mentions to download the driver from JL Sounds website but there are different versions of the driver available. Since Mojo mentions JL Sounds, it must be using the USB to I2S bridge internally which is an excellent USB receiver used in Lampizator DACs I used to own at some point. Many DAC designers optimizes one input over the other - some sounds better over AES/SPDIF, while others take a great deal of effort and care in designing a better USB input with high speed isolators, separate low jitter clocks, etc. I think I read somewhere before that Mojo prefers AES/SPDIF input over USB but it would be interesting to know from actual users how the USB in Mystique compares to AES/SPDIF.
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@debjit_g -Below is a quote from this review article.
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@zmann007 - you are correct about the XMOS receiver chip, although JLsounds is apparently still involved wrt drivers for Windows. I used to see JLsounds come up when I opened mysonicorbiter but since I now run the USB into a DDC and then use S/PDIF or AES/EBU into my DACs, I don't see that anymore. If important to @debjit_g then I suggest he emails Benjamin with any questions. This below is from the X owner's manual and seems consistent with other information on the website. USB Input Our USB input uses a high-performance XMOS receiver chip, is galvanically isolated, asynchronous, and has ultralow-noise femto clocking. To completely isolate the digital and analog power supplies on the Mystique X our USB input module has it’s own secondary on the power transformer, it’s own Silicon Carbide zero-recovery Schottky diode rectification, and uses two Belleson SPX ultralow-noise ultrahigh-dynamic discrete regulators, one for input and one for output. Always power up the Mystique X before booting up your music server or streamer. Unlike many DACs, the Mystique X uses no dirty USB buss power. For this reason the Mystique X must be powered on before booting any music server or streamer so that the XMOS USB receiver chip is powered on and can be recognized. Because of the 100% isolation and uncompromising performance of the power supplies and the ultralow-noise femto clocking used in our Mystique X, the USB input module performs better than most USB reclockers and regenerators. According to our customers, most of these “magic” USB boxes will degrade rather than improve performance. Drivers for the USB input module are included in Apple OS X and Linux. If your server or streamer is Windows based the driver must be downloaded: http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html Our USB input module will show up in your player software as “Mystique.” In player software that works with video as well as audio there will be more than one option with the name “Mystique.” Select the option for “Front Speakers.” USB Lift We include a USB Lift on the rear of Mystique X which removes 100% of the parasitic power supply drain from the USB input module and removes all internal clocking noise from inside of the chassis. When facing the rear of the chassis, slide the switch to the right to lift USB. One reason many companies recommend single-ended RCA coaxial AES or balanced XLRAES digital inputs is that they isolate DACs from computer and clocking noise.
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I'm using the most current USB driver. For Windows it doesn't show up as Mystique but works just fine. I've also tried an older driver which sounded the same so I reverted back figuring they must have a newer version for a reason. Not a lot of differences between USB AES and SPIDF that I can tell. USB might be slightly darker but I feel that could be more about the different sources PC vs PI2AES than the inputs |
I believe Benjamin has spent quite a bit of effort on the quality of the USB input in his DACs and especially since his newer, Mystique Y DAC offers only a USB input. In my case of owning five different Mystique DACs, I heard pretty much the same thing as what you stated, that there just isn't much difference between the inputs except that the "USB might be slightly darker". However, I have never had to utilize different drivers since my servers and streamers have all been Linux based. |
I find it extremely curious Mojo doesn't provide I2S input. On one hand I understand optimizing usb inputs as seems to be de facto output on most streamers. On the other, why do the extra conversion vs. native I2S path in dacs?
Recently I purchased Denafrips Gaia in order to compare I2S vs usb in various dacs. With my Laiv Harmony I2S via Gaia was far superior to usb. Now its fair to say, based on descriptors, usb implementation in Mystique superior to Harmony, so difficult to extrapolate here.
A fairer comparison of I2S vs usb will be with Musetec 006 which has more greatly optimized usb vs the Harmony, something along lines of Mojo. While I understand this is only a single aspect of usb implementation, both Harmony and Mojo use femto clock, Gaia has superior OXCO clock, I believe large part of improved sound quality I"m getting with Harmony slaved to Gaia clock is due to the improved clocking. Seems to me Mojo should at least offer I2S, easy to implement as its native path, doesn't need all the usb complexity. In any case, I'll be comparing better usb in Musetec vs I2S in coming weeks.
Keep in mind I have very similar usb implementation as @mitch2 as I also use full Sonore optical conversion, in other words OpticalRendu is the streamer with usb out, usb optimized in both our setups. |
Benjamin's take on clocking can be found in here - scroll down to Myth #1-Clocking. Regarding I2S, it was primarily designed for internal use - short runs inside of equipment, which may be a reason there is still no universal standard. When I owned Metrum equipment, I heard no improvement when using the I2S input to my Pavane or Adagio DACs. In fact, with my system at the time, I liked the sound of the USB input a little better, but that required taking the Ambre streamer out of the mix so maybe it was apples and oranges. With the Singxer SU-6 DDC, I do have the option of using I2S and adjusting as needed to match specific manufacturer's versions of I2S. Unfortunately, I have not had an I2S capable DAC here since I acquired the Singxer. I wish I had it at the same time I had the Tambaqui here because I heard from a dealer that the Tambaqui sounds best through the I2S input, at least in that dealer's opinion. |
I2S or 110 ohm they both are top for connection. they are not a myth, if that were true then why do Top companies use them ? it comes down to how comprehensive they are implementing the connection plain and simple . For example if you use a xlr that does not mean the circuit is true balanced input to output . That’s my only point , Esoteric for just 1 example makes very $$ expensive and comprehensive dacs ,transports with I2S as their top sounding input , 110 ohm xlr can be excellent also .for a truly Great I2S cable you don’t want a generic cable with video more issues. Tubulus Dedicated just for Audio IMO makes the best per $$ in quality ,value cables .this I2S cable will compete with cables 3-4xthe cost ,this too applies to their USB which I have and next year a statement usb cable too will be coming out. read their formula, they give you the basics about their design ,very sound and make a lot of common sense but very labor intensive.,their top Ximius -I2S is Great I just ordered one as well as their top Ethernet cables ,,they will totally change your opinion of what digital can sound like I highly recommend their top 2 cables ,which have much more in depth shielding and other methods. Unless you own them you have no valid opinion.!!
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I agree 100% with Benjamin on the clocking part. The real myth is accuracy of the clock makes it sounds better not that an ocxo will sound better. Ted Smith of PS Audio has given similar explanation for audio, in the time domain small quanta accuracy is all that is needed rather than long term stability and yet we see OCXO clocks, which has the best long term stability, almost sounds better than a regular Femto/TCXO. Moreover, it’s a given fact, and somewhat similar to I2S, that the proximity of the clock is important since it can significantly reduce emi and yet we see external master clock with 1M clock cable sounds better. I have seen in some implementation with external master clock, a modestly priced 10Mhz OCXO did not improve the performance of the DAC until a very expensive one were used. This is very inline with what was described in the Mojo article regarding lower hash noise - the modestly price ocxo did not have a better hash noise than the internal clock itself and only when the expensive one was introduced did it improve the performance. I bet if we measured both these external clock in terms of accuracy in the time domain, we would be hard pressed to find any differences. But having said all these, I am surprised that Mojo doesn’t employ an ocxo in their higher end dacs even when they believe it can improve the performance or maybe they did experiment and found no appreciable difference in how it sounds. Curious.
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@danager thanks for the info. Are you using the Thesycon or the Xmos driver from the JL Sounds download link ? Do you remember ? |
@danager thanks. Yes, Windows reports I2SoverUSB. I know this since I had Lampizator sometime back and it uses the same JL Sounds USB receiver board in their DACs. |
@mitch2 - Thanks again for your thoughtful reviews. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I found myself looking forward to each installment! While I’m very happy with my Merason Dac1 MKii for the moment, I’m intrigued by the Mojo dacs based on your review. Out of curiosity, have you had the opportunity to listen to any of the Lampizator Dacs as a point of reference? If so, any thoughts on how they compare to the Mojo and/or Merason dacs? |
A quick update to my HiFi Rose 150B / Mojo X ’24 post, above. After much back and froth [sp. intentional] with Benjamin and a fair bit of additional research on my part, it appears that the Rose’s manual at 3.5 Connection Between USB 3.0 Audio Output and External DAC is, what’s the word I’m looking for here -- oh, yes: whacked. As far as I can determine, the two USB 3.0 ports on the right side of the 150B’s back panel (which the Rose O.M. describes as the connection point for an external DAC) are actually inputs for things like external hard drives, thumb drives, and the like. To connect a 150B to the Mojo, go with an AES or RCA coax, and you should be fine. Getting a Windows-based laptop to play nice with the Mojo via USB is another story (figuring out which of JL’s drivers you need, DLing/installing, and other assorted techcromancy is required; sadly, this was beyond the limited training I received at Starfleet Academy). That said, Benjamin notes that Apple products are plug & play via USB, as are Lenovo devices. They have the necessary drivers baked in, whereas it appears Mr. Gates is fine with MP3s and some stock earbuds he found at the back of his desk drawer. YRMV, but I thought this might save a few folks some gnashing of teeth & rending of garments. |
@bluethinker, I'm very keen on doing a side-by-side comparo with the Mearason, and we should be getting one in the shop (Alma Music + Audio East, Sterling VA) in a few weeks. The MKii is the only other DAC I'd seriously considered, but went with the Mojo based on the content of this thread, extensive reading (thanks to the exhaustive reading list provided by @mitch2), and the fact that the Mojo X is currently on sale. From all I've read, they're first cousins, and both offer exceptional sound. |
@bluethinker - Years ago, I owned a LampizatOr DAC 4 and thought it sounded pretty good except the deal-breaker, to me, was that the soundstage seemed overblown or larger than reality, sort of like an image imprint on Silly Putty that had been stretched out. The larger than life soundstage seemed to be accompanied by a reduction in the visceral impact that I was used to with other DACs and with the CD player I had at the time. However, that was a long time ago and I would enjoy trying a Golden Atlantic, Big Seven, or even a Baltic, to hear how they have improved. I probably never went back to LampizatOr mostly to avoid having tubes again, especially since I have been happy with the sound I am getting from an all solid-state system that I can leave powered up all the time to accommodate my sometimes sporadic listening habits. |
@zmann007 This reviewer discovered a solution to a USB3.0 connectivity issue with a USBe Perfect. I don’t know if it would apply to the HiFi Rose or not. Ask Walter @Underwood HiFi. I don't have any USB connectivity issues but adding a USBe Perfect to my Auralic streamer offered a more refined SQ. |
@zmann007 - Let me how things go with the comparison between the Merason and the Mojo Dac. And congrats on your purchase of the Mojo Dac!
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@mitch2 - Thanks for your thoughtful reply. The audiophile bug or malady, depending on the day or if my wife is in included in the sample respondents, draws me in with the persistent quest for that elusive auditory nirvana state. The Lampizator’s seem to have a near cult life following, so thank you for the perspective. |
Thanks @bluethinker; I'll do so, for sure. And my workaround for the Rose is simply to use the RCA coax output (Rose) to it's mate on the Mojo, and run my transport through AES to the corresponding Mojo port. And yes @devinplombier, I meant to say devices running Linux in general. Benjamin also mentioned Lenovo, and as I have one of their tablets, that's what stuck. All the while, the Mojo Mystique X '24 continues to burn in -- 10 to 12 hours a day -- and is sounding better and better. My understanding is that at around 240 hours, the lotus blossom unfolds, and Kate Bush appears with her Fairlight in my livingroom. Yet another in a series of aspirational states! |
@zmann007 - Let us know when the lotus flower unfolds! |
I have a comment about and experience with a couple of DACs. I have been listening to a NAD 3050 integrated amp that is only a few months old. The amplifier itself is fabulous. The unit contains an internal DAC and it has been enjoyable to listen to the system. However, I decided to hook up a BluMe DAC to see if I could hear a difference with some songs of which I am very familiar. When I played the BluMe DAC, I was amazed at the difference! The instruments sounded much deeper and wider for the soundstage and you could focus on individual instruments with the BluMe DAC. Depth of the soundstage is something that I am striving for as it gives me the best listening experience. Further, some songs have two different base notes playing that are quite close in frequency. The deck supplied with the unit sounded garbled and the BluMe unit allowed me to hear the two separate notes with great distinction. I would have to say that the DAC inside the NAD unit is inferior to the BluMe unit. Due to the three dimensional holographic affect that I get with The BluMe unit, I no longer use the internal DAC inside the NAD 3050. I will be experimenting with other outboard DAC units To experience the differences. |
@bluethinker , while we haven't received the Mearason in the shop yet (we're still recovering from having five ( ! ) rooms at Capital Audio Fest), the Mojo X '24 is up at around 150 hours now, and is definitely a keeper. While I don't have anywhere near the "I've tried multiple DACs in my current system" experience as @mitch2 or many of the others posting to this thread, I'd like to think I have a pretty keen ear. I've also heard multiple MSBs and Mearasons at the shop -- often through much finer and far more expensive gear than my own. That said, I believe I'm very much in (or rapidly approaching) the sonic realm I've long dreamt of. Granted, the YG Carmel 3s I picked up earlier this year are facilitating a fair bit of the overall SQ, but still. There's just so much freakin' air & space around the individual instruments and the notes they produce, yet the whole is as cohesive and engaging as can be. Now all I have to do is win the lottery, pick up a 2nd gen Vinnie Rossi Brahma II integrated, and call it a day. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get the door -- I think that's Kate and her Fairlight coming up the walk. |
So, first off, right out of the gate I would like to extend a sincere thank you to Mitch for undertaking this huge "six dac comparison"! What a huge undertaking this must have been, not just with the costs involved, but also the enormous amount of time and dedication that you put into listening, comparing and writing up these excellent reviews of each dac! You did an amazing job and I greatly appreciate it very much! This has been such an amazing thread, I was hoping it might be okay if I could share some of my own personal experiences as of late? So, after being devoted to vinyl for the last 50+ years, I have curated probably over 1,000 truly mint records (both in jazz and classical) that play without noise, pops or clicks. They have a full, rich, harmonically fleshed out sound with an excellent dynamic structure, but at the same time plays with a natural sense of ease and flow, without being etched or hard. Just truly wonderfully musical in every sense of the word. So, I ended up buying a brand new Mojo Mystique X-24AM dac from Benjamin. Oh btw, the 24 simply stands for the year 2024. The "AM" stands for Amorphous Cores by the Swiss Company Lundahl who makes audiophile transformers and chokes. This brand new Mojo was on sale with $1,000 off and it still cost me nearly $7700 including the shipping! Holy Crap; and I still had to buy a dedicated cd transport yet. Oh my Lord... what was I getting myself into, lol. I’ve had the Mojo Dac running 24/7, with my cd player on repeat, since I’ve received it and now have over 500 hours on it. I am listening to it right now as I type this message and I am getting very excited as the sound has really opened up now and I am really liking what I’m hearing! (It actually really started to sing quite beautifully at around 150 hours - but amazingly, it continues to keep sounding better and better) With the Mojo, it sounds dynamic without sounding hard. With the Mojo, it plays in a relaxed and natural way without becoming fatiguing, but yet at the same time it still plays with speed, with dynamic expression and with emotion! So, I recently ended up taking a look at USa’mart one day and just moments prior to me bringing up the site, a seller posted a used black (which goes very nicely with the rest of my gear) Jay’s Audio CDT2-MK3 dedicated cd transport for sale in like new condition which included the Headquarter Qstab bone cd clamp at a price that was attractive to me, so I bought it! Thank you for allowing me to indulge you all, with my excitement. Best wishes to you all, Don
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