Silver Speaker Cables

Thanks @twoleftears , I missed that area of their website. 

But 60% still seems awful rich based on the weight of silver required at $20 per ounce. 

When I went to their website I saw promotion of 7N silver and nothing about copper.  This, to me, is misleading and makes me suspect of their products.  If the “bonded” wire is so good, why do they bury the fact that it’s 40% copper, which also seems like BS to me as even 60% 7N silver would need to be more expensive unless your business model is to go out of business.  I simply don’t trust this company. 

@twoleftears

Thanks, I definitely missed that information in my first pass. I just don’t understand why one would refine silver to 7N’s and THEN alloy it with copper?! Also, the now claimed composition of 60% silver + 40% copper still leaves seemingly razor thin margins for the raw material costs versus completed cable prices (particularly 11 or 12 AWG speaker cables).

The magnified OCC copper grain structure pictures are the exact same used elsewhere, including on Outlaw Audio’s website since around year 2000 (where I first learned about OCC wire).

The "bonded" wire process seems at least vaguely reminiscent of LAT International’s "SilverFuse" process (bathing copper cores in silver to make a near alloy). LAT is now defunct. I wonder if the SilverFuse process was picked up and rebranded?

Anyways, I would feel mislead if I had previously bought these cables. Not a good vibe. 

This is buried under the "About" tab on their website.

OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast) is a wire casting process developed to eliminate annealing issues and minimize grain boundaries in silver wire. A silver purity of  7N (99.99999%) results in the lowest distortion of an audio signal. Analogy: Smooth asphalt road compared to a gravel road.

​Our wire is custom manufactured for us. It is an alloy of 7N silver 60% and 40% 5N copper. The silver is bonded to the solid copper cores. This method greatly reduces the cost of OCC filament wire yet retains outstanding audio performance. Note: This is not the typical flash-plated stranded wire that many builders offer today.

​Air-core Teflon tubing is known for superior dielectric properties when compared to PVC and PE cores making it ideal for use as a conduit in high-end audio cables. Minimal signal dissipation and reflection.

However, under FAQ, this is what they write:

"Is the 7N OCC wire that is used pure silver? Seems like a very good price for silver cables."

​Yes. There has been some confusion regarding our wire construction. Our wire is a multicore single conductor with a pure silver bonding. This method offers far better economies than typical OCC filament wire but with similar sonic performance. We have clarified these aspects in the product pages. View the Tech link.

The Tech link takes you to the About page with the actual nitty gritty.

I bought some of Vogue Audio’s speaker cables and after receiving them, I discovered they are actually stranded copper with silver substance filling the voids between the strands of copper. After I contacted them about it, they changed their website description to read: “singular multicore bonded silver” but still with no mention of copper.

I’m not saying their speaker cables won’t sound great in your system. That is for you to decide. But don’t be mislead to believe they are 100% pure silver.

I’m hoping they change their website description again to be more accurate, but they are currently dealing with the aftermath of hurricane Ian.

Wow!! Thanks for reporting your findings, and seriously shame on Vogue Audio, wtf! When I looked at the site a week ago I saw no mention nor indication of the cables containing copper content, other than their listed prices seeming too low to absorb the cost of even raw silver, much less premium OCC wire (or whatever)!

Interesting @rockrider 

Their website gives the impression of them selling 7N OCC silver wires at very low prices. I believe that several users of this forum have bought the wires assuming they are pure silver. If something looks too good to be true, it is usually not true.

But they may, sound good as you say. ;)

Good catch @whistleraudio

I bought some of Vogue Audio’s speaker cables and after receiving them, I discovered they are actually stranded copper with silver substance filling the voids between the strands of copper. After I contacted them about it, they changed their website description to read: “singular multicore bonded silver” but still with no mention of copper.

I’m not saying their speaker cables won’t sound great in your system. That is for you to decide. But don’t be mislead to believe they are 100% pure silver.

I’m hoping they change their website description again to be more accurate, but they are currently dealing with the aftermath of hurricane Ian.

charles1dad

9,210 posts

10-07-2022 at 02:33pm

@whistleraudio

Once you reach a certain degree of silver wire purity is there a discernible audible difference in your opinion? For example 5N compared with 7N. I have a Vogue Audio 7N OCC silver power cable and it’s very good ​​​​​​. But I feel the same with regard to my Lavricables power cables which are 5N silver. I can affirm that both are very high quality excellent products.

Charles

I have tried 7N, because I do not have a reliable source for silver of this purity. Remember that 7N is 100X as pure as 5N. It would also be a pita to handle without contaminating it.

I have tested several wire samples at the Anchor Group in the UK. They specialize in precious metal certification. Some samles supposed to be 5N did not even reach 4N!

I suspect that many cable manufacturers trust that their raw wire suppliers deliver what they are supposed to when it comes to purity. They often do not.

I see that eg. Vogue Audio says "7N OCC silver singular multicore bonded". What does "bonded" mean? Is is silver bonded to copper (i.e silver clad), or is it 7N silver all through?

11AWG per pole of 7N OCC silver would be extremely expensive.

@soix

I need a 20 amp rated power cable for my isolation balanced AC transformer to wall outlet. I wanted to use the Lavricable Grand but it is a 15 amp max power cable, thus the Vogue Audio. I have the Grands on my components. So, I have not compared them directly. I strongly suspect they are sonically on par with each.

I do not feel I can make a definitive judgement between them as they’re in different system locations/functions. However, I am very confident in saying that both are excellent sounding and well-made silver cables for very fair and reasonable cost.

Charles

@charles1dad I gotta ask, how do the Vogue and Lavri compare? They both seem to offer high-quality silver cables at really reasonable prices with Vogue upping the game, but also the price, in using pricier silver. Is the performance notably better? I’m inferring from your comment that the differences are small, but I’d love to hear your thoughts. BTW, I own several LavriCables from headphone, to balanced interconnects, to USB and all are outstanding for performance/value IMHO, but if Vogue is better I’ll definitely look that way in the future.

@whistleraudio 

Once you reach a certain degree of silver wire purity is there a discernible audible difference in your opinion? For example 5N compared with 7N. I have a Vogue Audio 7N OCC silver power cable and it’s very good ​​​​​​. But I feel the same with regard to my  Lavricables power cables which are 5N silver. I can affirm that both are very high quality excellent products.

Charles 

Actually their webpage says 11AWG 7N OCC silver!? Their shop is still down so I can‘t see the prices. However, manufacturing a 2m set of AWG11 of 7N OCC silver is extremely expensive. Another thing is that finding a manufacturer that reliable manufacture 7N OCC is next to impossible. Wanlung (Neotech) make 6N silver, and they are considered to be the best in the game. I have seen several adverts over at AliExpress claiming silver wires with 7N purity. Nahh...

I am in the cable business myself, so I know how expensive it all gets when you try to exceed 5N in silver.

Try Vogue Audio 12 awg Pure Silver Speaker Cables, Power Cables, and Interconnects.

Isn’t 12 AWG solid silver something like a half-pound of silver per 2m pair? Kind of hard to believe their prices, with such high raw material cost leaving a VERY slim margin for processing, labor and other materials. But, if that’s legit - then bravo to Vogue! You certainly won’t get that anywhere else for near the price point.

EDIT: Their website has recently been updated with the following, which can explain slow email responses:

Vogue Audio operations are closed until October 1, 2022 due to Category 3 Hurricane Ian.

Charleee be patience Bob is good at responding email, unless something happen.

Try Vogue Audio 12 awg Pure Silver Speaker Cables, Power Cables, and Interconnects.  They have Specials every month where they offer different items at 50% off.  This month they're offering Speaker Cables and Power Cables at 50% off.  They're very reasonably priced to begin with!  They are my go to Audio Store for XLR Interconnects/Power/Speaker Cables.  That's Vogue Audio, all with free shipping! 

@Rodman99999,

That's some good stuff right there.

"You don't know what you don't know."

:)

@charliee 

I'm not sure when you last tried to contact him but it was only a few months ago that he had Quadruple bypass surgery. I watched my father go through the same surgery and I know it takes a while to comeback from. He has been working on new products of course and in my case patience pays off. The one thing I know for sure is that Bob is great guy.

This forum needs a "hide member" function.

@tump350 & lancelock; great news, please keep us posted on the progress.

@cakyol No one here needs to be saved by you, but thanks anyways. Now can we move on?

@rodman99999 

👍

Charles 

      KUDOS: to all those that have experimented with new and better cabling.

     Trusting your own ears and abilities to discern reality are ALL it takes, to find whether or not they belong in your system.

      The Church of Denyin'tology has been around for quite some time.

       It's not so much that they know so little, as that: they've convinced themselves of so much that's wrong*.

       I have little doubt: if more had adhered to their doctrines, through the centuries, we'd still be listening to conch shells.    Perhaps: arguing as to whether the ocean can produce a stereo image with two!

       *ie (I often use these examples of those who should have know better):

     "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction."  (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872) 

     "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon,"  (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873)

      "The super computer is technologically impossible.  It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University)

       "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)                       

      "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."  (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923)

      "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television)

      "The bomb will never go off.  I speak as an expert in explosives."  (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project) 

     When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH."

      Until recently (21st Century); and the advent of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best (scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft. 

     Quite often (it seems): Science has to catch up with the facts/phenomena of Nature and/or, the realities of our universe. 

     Happy listening and (as Richard Feynman would often encourage), "NEVER STOP LEARNING!"

I have burning-in a set of Bob Grost (Cerious Technologies) cables. This is Bob’s latest iteration of Graphene cables superseding the Graphene Matriix line. He is using silver conductor as the backbone and adding graphene. I have speaker, interconnect and power cables. Once they are burned-in properly I will pull them out and insert them one at a time to try and determine which cables are making the biggest impact.

The new line is called “Lumniscate” and at first after a couple hours I was floored.

@tump350 

The silver wires did not come off as bright in my system, but rather deepened the various harmonic resonances around each note and instrument (what I believe you guys call "bloom"), deepened the sound stage and sharpened the imaging of each instrument making the recorded performance a little more musical and life-like: increasing my enjoyment of the players.

Congratulations on your successful outcome with silver cabling. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Charles 

Thanks for sharing @tump350 !! Not many people take the time to do so. For fear of being ridiculed by the anti-cables militia (you know who).

Keeping an open mind, and most importantly, experimenting, trying for yourself, goes a (very) long way

Well this thread has inspired me to try some 7n OCC solid silver strand speaker cables.  My system is extremely revealing.  The silver wires did not come off as bright in my system, but rather deepened the various harmonic resonances around each note and instrument (what I believe you guys call "bloom"), deepened the sound stage and sharpened the imaging of each instrument making the recorded performance a little more musical and life-like: increasing my enjoyment of the players.

I have to thank @ghdprentice for his description of silver in revealing systems and first time poster @laddy for giving me the lead on the Vogue Audio wires on sale. Otherwise I wouldn't have tried this experiment, even though the financial risk is small and VA has a 30 return/audition policy. 

I'm new to this and have to thank @thyname for starting me on cable improvements.  His recomendation of Zavfino PC's for my source components was 'transformative' -- everything sounded better.  The real "ahh" moment came once the Zavfino Fina PC was used with my Zenith MK3 and another when attached to my pre.  The benefits heard were much the same as those I just described.

I might next try bi-wiring my speakers with the orginal Transparent Supra (5th gen) speaker wires on the HF posts and the silver wires on the LF posts to replace the current Cardas jumpers.  But that will have to wait until the silver wires are fully broken-in.  Another 30-40 hours to go. (That also means that my initial impressions of the silver wires are subject to change).

Thanks all for your honest assesments of what your experiences have taught you about different components, tweaks and configurations.  Not only am I having fun, I truly enjoy listening to the music released from my system. Which system would never have been built without this forum.

@jayctoy I've received my Lavricables shipped quickly with UPS.

Custom orders took one week to produce.

Charles thanks 

@raindog911 ​​​​@mulveling

Appreaciate the actual personal experience insight.

@jayctoy

The Lavricables are made in Latvia. They are very responsive via email communication and ship with DHL.

Charles

Try to find some older Audio Magic silver ribbon cables.

They will blow your audio mind.

Where is Lavricables located?

I get it. Good one. 

@raindog911 

I've swapped Fire IC with Colorado (older version of Earth) and yeah the difference is striking! The Fires and that WEL phono cable are fantastic. I've been curious to try William Tell Silver biwire, but sticking with the older large gauge silver cables for now - swapping to big silver cables on speakers was my biggest cable wow moment ever. 

While I can’t recommend a budget cable, I can offer insights from my journey of moving from copper based cables to an entire silver interconnect signal path. My most recent move is this past week where I upgraded my speaker cables from Audioquest Robin Hood Zero and Bass to William Tell Silver and Bass cables. All of my other interconnects are of equitable performance: all Audioquest Fire (XLR and RCA) except for my turntable to phono stage cable which is a WEL Signature. I’ve bought all used at a significant discount from list.

For me, it isn’t about emphasizing or taming certain frequencies, harshness or texture. It is about timing, which can be observed through perceived changes in frequency, harshness and texture. As the recreated sounds of your system closes in on the ideal - the perfect recreation of sounds made in real time (unachievable), your mind does less “recomputing” and interpreting of the music. This frees us to be completely absorbed by the music.

Through evolution or design, acute perception of the directionality of sound is a survival mechanism. Being able to detect and accurately locate a faint sound, like the snap of a twig in the prairie grass, made the difference between running away from the tiger and living vs. choosing the second best route when running away from the tiger and being eaten.

So, Mr. Indulgent, what does this have to do with silver conductors? As well stated by others, as long as your cables are not magnitudes superior to your weakest link component, you should hear tangible results. Impact that can not be correlated to measurements (sorry to those who perceive good sound through numerical analysis).

The last observation I’ll share on the topic - the cable upgrade that made the greatest listening impact was the last silver conductor IC I installed. Meaning, once the last bit of copper conductor was removed, the collective improvements silver conductors brought to the timing of my system were fully realized. I can, and have, reinstalled Audioquest Earth cables (similar architecture to Fire with copper conductors) and hear a significant degradation of the sound. Swap two Fires for Earth and the degradation continues, but not nearly as much as the first swap!

I hope this helps!

@lectronjh50-

       KUDOS: for having the awareness of your own possible misconceptions, enough scientific curiosity to actually experiment, trust in you own senses/mental capacity to recognize reality and temerity to post your findings.

                                     Happy listening!

I have received several inquiries about which cables exactly I discussed above but my responses clashed with Audiogon policies and I am not sure if the right individuals received my messages so here are the details:

1. Pair Nordost Odin Supreme Reference Interconnect RCA Audio Cable With Silver Plated RCA Plug. Price: $37.05 per 1.5m
2. Nordost Valhalla 7N OCC Copper Silver Plated Loudspeaker Cable hifi Flat Speaker Wire with Gold Plated Y Spade Plug Banana Plug. Price: $119.14 per 3m

Both came from Hi Fi Store.

All the best

Lectronjh50

@lak and others, if you have any experience to share.

How do the Lavricables compare to Zafino? Specifics, please, and thanks.

P.S. You can find my system under White room. I changed my e-mail address and I don't know how to make updates now, but my system is till there.

Lectron jh50

Hello everybody,

Please, allow me to make a couple of comments.

I admit, I was very negative about importance of cables for a long time. I was in huge conflict with an idea of spending let's say $1,000 on 2m wire. This just did not make any sense to me. Then, praises that Roxy54 made about Chinese-made copies of Odin and Valhalla on another forum triggered interest in me and I decided to spend several hundred dollars and resolve my own dilemma. So I replaced all my interconnects with Odin and my speaker cables with Valhalla. Before this, I used Mapleshade speaker wires, Klyne dragonfly wings, Discovery, Synergistic Research, Monster and inexpensive Kabels I purchased from Amazon. I am not a skeptic anymore - my new system does sound better. Sound is deeper, more detailed, warmer, richer, instruments sound more realistic, there is more space around instruments, stage is more dimensional and focused. I hear sounds that I had never heard before. My music sounds better and more convincing than ever. My interest in my audio system has suddenly increased. 

These cables have made me enjoy music more than before and I am happy I did not spend a huge amount of money to get there. 

I never planned to buy new cables and I was not in a search for new cables. Also, I will never be a customer of Nordost. In conclusion, I admit, I was wrong for more than 30 years - cables do affect sound.

Lectronjh50

depends what kind of silver you're talking about, ofc silver is nowhere near as good as OCC silver and neotech in their top line they have two cables the Amazon which is all silver in their interconnects and Sahara which is a hybrid copper and silver not cheap though, I prefer the Sahara with the copper silver mix they use rectangular copper which is even better than round OCC.

You are correct.  I will be ignoring the cable conversations from now on.

Good! Thank you! Let’s wait and see. Sometimes old habits and addictions are hard to break 

One thing about objectivists is that every accusation of theirs is a confession. 

All the best,
Nonoise

You are correct.  I will be ignoring the cable conversations from now on.

I have already been ignoring the fuses for a long time anyway, but just could not resist the cables.

Good luck !

@kray :

And I know he’d never spend the amount of money their 100% silver cables cost. 

I have learned over the years these folks will never spend any kind of money in cables. Even if someone sent cables to them for free. Zero outlay, just to try. Out of principle. 

Again, a non-answer answer. Let’s try again:

Please share which $50 cable and which $1,000+ cable you tried and how. And for context, please post your audio chain. Thank you

Also, please answer this:

you never answered my question. Let’s do it again:

Tell me one thing though. Please help me understand. If the cables is definitely not a topic that interests you much, why do you keep posting on every single cable forum? Logically, if something, anything, does not interest me, I just ignore it. Common sense. No?

I have compared MANY 8-12 awg COPPER cables (some OFC and some none OFC but never copper clad)  & various fuses (thats a different story) but never spent to buy silver cables. 

With the copper cables, I noticed NO difference whatsoever.  My typical speaker distance is about 6-7 feet or so from the power amps. At that distance, the difference in resistance between the copper & silver cable would be less than 0.01 ohms.  As I said, the brass connectors on the speakers would have more resistance than this.

Seriously ......

@cakyol and I’m just inviting you to not the be a zealot and pretend to know what other people experience. 
 

and @jasonbourne52 mentioned DH labs cables but I guarantee he didn’t use their 100% silver cable. 90% of the companies cables (silver sonic) are not 100% silver. And I know he’d never spend the amount of money their 100% silver cables cost. 

The only sonic difference you would be able to hear between a $50 cable and a >= $1000 cable is the swooshing sound it would make as the money leaves your wallet.

Please share which $50 cable and which $1,000+ cable you tried and how. And for context, please post your audio chain. Thank you

You are correct, but I can still express my opinion.

you never answered my question. Let’s do it again:

Tell me one thing though. Please help me understand. If the cables is definitely not a topic that interests you much, why do you keep posting on every single cable forum? Logically, if something, anything, does not interest me, I just ignore it. Common sense. No?