Should I eliminate my preamp?

A high quality (and usually higher priced) pre will only enhance the listening experience. Most people who say no preamp speak on theory or have just never used a good enough pre to hear the difference themselves.

No way. We all consider this at some point. A great preamp always preferable in my opinion. Give each a weeks listen then decide. 

This appears to be a perennial question and is asked on a regular basis. Lots of threads with great discussions but no conclusive answer. It boils down to taste. For me, For the types of music I listen, I love the "color/distortion" that a tube preamplifier adds to the texture of the music and my brain translates that into musicality, life, and can paint a more realistic soundstage in my head. I could care less if it is not completely accurate but on the other hand this color sounds more like live music to me.  

Fake news

Real news. Google ‘Carver Stereophile Challange’

After several demo sessions,I found, ARC and Bryston to mate perfectly.
Consider moving up to a newer ARC pre-amp and you will be musically rewarded.
Happy Listening!

Fake news

This discussion reminds me of the time Bob Carver made his non-audiophile solid-state amplifier sound exactly like a Stereophile Class A Conrad Johnson tube amp by adding distortion. 

My dac digital  section is no slouch, but the last McIntosh  preamplifier brought magic to my system. Wihout it the sound was thinner, narrower..

I have had the same experiences as electro slacker.  There are times when a certain preamp will add a magic to the sound that isn’t there with the DAC/source.  Just like I mentioned above, a preamp is a tool that can be used to help shape/tune the sound.

I just travelled this road.  The direct from DAC was clean, extended, with great dynamics from lower mids down.  Things like Neil Young at the Cellar Door sounded live, and bombastic things like Emerson Lake and Palmer sounded bombastic.  No listening fatigue.

Then Karma stepped in.  A friend sent an email saying he was downsizing and selling his system.  Amid the pieces was his totally rebuilt Audio Research SP3.  I tried it and was amazed at the difference. Voices were illuminated and compelling. Joni shimmered.  Percussion sounded like wood and membranes instead of thuds. Performers I thought I knew sounded more three-dimensional and nuanced.  The difference in soundscape from album to album was surprising.  I was entranced by what I heard, whereas the direct link presentation was far less captivating.

But I lost "bombastic" and the lower frequencies were softened on the SP3, probably because there was insufficient room for larger caps in the rebuild, and that rebuild was done quite awhile ago.

I was so convinced that I searched for the right linestage.  I could find nothing but praise for ARC REF 3 linestage, so I'm spending a lot of money I didn't intend to.

My schooling and career was about logic, and logically the direct link should be best, and that added piece shouldn't be able to add something that wasn't there before, but this is about experience and emotions, and logic only takes you so far.

I’m confused. As you have listened to the system both ways surely you are best placed to know the answer?   It's like asking "I have a Californian and a French red wine, both of which I have tasted before.  Which tastes better?"

However, since the OP has all the tools to do the test for himself, he is best to answer his own question.

+1
I have always found that if you have enough gain for the loudness level you want or need, then going direct (with no preamp) has always been the most transparent, dynamic, least coloured way of listening to the source.
So long as the source is not a tube output, which can be high impedance, then you may get a impedance mismatch to your amp.

Nelson Pass made a preamp he loved called the Aleph L, which is passive until the volume control get’s to 3 o’clock, after which an active stage come in if you need more level, but as he says at a detriment.

Nelson Pass: " At the 3 o’clock volume control position, the Aleph L offers a direct path from input to output.
The only component in the signal path is wire and switch contacts.
At positions below 3 o’clock, the volume control functions as a precision passive attenuator using discrete resistor ladders.
Above 3 o’clock, active gain is added to the output signal in 2 decibel increments, for amaximum of 10 dB.
As a result, you suffer the effects of active circuitry only when additional gain is necessary."

Also a Nelson Pass quote:
" We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.

What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.

And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."

Cheers George

It all depends on the preamp!

Happy Listening.

No doubt, you have to listen to your system with and without and decide which sounds better...and in my own system, no doubt at all, much better with the preamp than Oppo direct to the power amp..in the mean time, just for fun, check out this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh27E7YKN9s

This is exactly what I recently did. I bought an Oppo Sonica DAC and asked myself "what do I need a preamp for?" Like you, I have an ARC pre-amp (SP-6B) but since I no longer listing to vinyl, I was just using it as a volume control. The Sonica DAC has a perfectly good digital volume control which sounds fine to me. Plus, the Sonica DAC has balanced XLR outputs, and my Rane AC22B crossover has balanced inputs. I noticed a marked improvement in quiet when getting rid of the SP6B and it's single-ended interconnects, and moving the the DAC/Crossover/balanced XLR setup. How could an extra piece of gear in the signal path improve anything?

My SP-6B recently came back from service at ARC, and I'm am wondering if I should sell it. There are a lot of new vinyl fans out there who might want it (along with my SOTA Sapphire turntable, Linn ITOK II tonearm, and the Dynavector Karat 23R cartridge).

In this particular case, its a bit of apples and oranges.

The ARC is single-ended, but the Oppo has balanced capability as does the amp.

The simple fact is that balanced often sounds better because of improved cable immunity, and that the amp might sound better driven by a balanced source.

The ARC OTOH is getting a bit long in the tooth- and is certainly old enough to have filter caps failing as well as tubes.

In this case, I'd be all about dumping the preamp until its serviced out, but that is not to say that an active balanced preamp would not be able to help. Right now there are a few too many variables to be scientific about it.

Ralph Karsten (Atma-Sphere) has in a few threads here lately discussed the issue of the benefits of an active pre-amp in certain system set-ups vs. the penalties. If you can find them in the Audiogon Forum, you will learn all there is to know on the subject. Ralph really covers all the trade-offs involved between the two approaches, providing all the facts necessary to help one decide which approach is better for a given system. 

You need to listen to it both ways. I have a DIY model that has bit perfect volume built in. Meaning I should be able to use the volume on my laptop and the dac continues to produce bit perfect sound to my amp. I have driven my amp with this dac as well as 2 others, but when I run the dac through my Coda preamp, Everything improves. For me the Preamp Stays

@audioconnection +2.  You need to think about the quality of the electronics involved, as well as issues like impedance matching. Use your ears, but it's extremely likely you'll prefer avec pre-amp.

Thanks for all the comments.  As for the preamp, I have owned for 20 years. I purchased from a friend who was an authorized AR technician. He replaced tubes at the time I bought it. I am certain it couldn't hurt to have it tested, however I am trying to sell the SP6.

@audioconnection , +1.

However, since the OP has all the tools to do the test for himself, he is best to answer his own question.

He can simply listen to his system with, and without his ARC SP6 b and decide for himself.

Trust your ears.

Assuming you don’t create a major impedance mismatch, there’s no right answer.

The goal IMHO is your personal enjoyment. Your personal enjoyment may or may not align with any particular technical measure of performance. I mean, no one wants noise, or we think we don’t, but how low is low enough, and what are you trading off for lower noise?

There are some preamps like older Conrad Johnsons, which are pretty seductive liars. I doubt technically they measure very well, but I love to listen to them. In that case, removing the preamp from my chain is not what I want. Right now, I’m using a Mytek Brooklyn through a Parasound P7. The Brooklyn is more revealing and more relaxed sounding, but for technical issues I need the P7 in the mix. Kind of depends.

I will say I have had the chance to stream video from my Oppo (older BD player) and the Mytek, and the Mytek easily beats it for sound quality, but can't do 5.1 or 7.1

Best,


E

I guess I want the music as it is rather than with added 'life'.

Using an Oppo directly connected to Bryston amplifier can have high fidelity.  However, this combination could also sound a little sterile in a way.  Bryston amplifiers are usually very exacting and dynamic, but sometimes lack "life" - this could come across as being somewhat flat or sterile or non-engaging.  It depends on what the listener wants.  A preamp is used to help shape the sound.  The AR SP6 preamp could definitely add some life and texture to the sound.  You probably want to replace the tubes if they have not been touched since the 80's.

You've done it so do you prefer the sound direct vs your preamp?  Your preamp being some 38 years old may be in need of a refresh and certainly a retube as suggested above.

The argument about dynamics is wrong. An electrical signal comes out of the Oppo and goes into the power amp. What would be pre amp do? Change the signal?
As for digital volume control. That argument was true years ago. These days DACs have enough bit depth to avoid this problem. There is a paper by ESS somewhere but I do not have the time now to look for it.

I thought using the volume control on a digital device such as the OPs UDP would degrade sound from truncating bits at lower volume settings, hence the need for a pre-amp with (presumably) quality volume control in the analog domain.

My preamp is AR SP6 b (circa 1980).

(((This is a very smart move)))
 I strongly disagree......
((( Adding an extra link in the chain can only degenerate the signal. ))))
If your listening to a preamp with 55 cents integrated circuits you may be right
At first, it may seem cleaner with elevator music yet try it on something with
dynamics. As Mcgal suggested try it yourself and listen.
 You may have also discovered you need new tubes or different brand type installed.
 What is model pre amp it?
 Best JohnnyR

Since you already have the components, listen with your own ears. For me, I prefer having my Oppo 105D going into a processor or preamp and then into the amp. That sounds better to my ears but possibly not for yours.

This is a very smart move, unless you need any of the facilities offered by the pre amp, such as a phono input , the option to switch between multiple inputs, or tone control. But for a basic system with just a disc player and perhaps (if your Oppo alllows) an optical input for e.g. a television and/or Chromecast Audio this is fine.
I do effectively the same in my home office system: computer as source, into an ODAC usb DAC, into an Emotiva Control Freak volume control, into a Quad 405- power amplifer. It works like a treat. Adding an extra link in the chain can only degenerate the signal.
Pre amplifiers were unavoidable in the old days, because various sources had pretty divergent output levels, and in particular the turntable, that needed RIAA equalization as well. These days the 2.0 volt cd redbook output standard for rca has been adopted by quite a few other sources like many DACs. As it so happens, that is also a common input sensitivity for many power amplifiers (double this for balanced).