Sell Me Your Women, Your Children, Your Vintage Turntable...
Ok I’m trying to understand the appeal of buying something like an old Garrard 301 or an elderly Technics all trussed up in a shiny new plinth, versus something manufactured in the 21st century by people not wearing clogs.
Surely modern gear has to perform better, dollar for dollar? It isn’t like these restored Garrards are exactly cheap, i was looking at one for almost $11k yesterday on Reverb. The internals looked like something out of a Meccano set. I ought to be more in tune with the past, I’m almost 60 and wear bell bottoms, but the style of the older TTs just doesn’t do it for me. Now then, my Dr. Feickert Volare had a look that was hardly futuristic, but that’s about as retro as I’d prefer to go. All that said... I will buy one of these old buggers if it genuinely elevates performance. With $10k available for table and arm, on the new or used market, how would you splash the cash?
Just a couple of thoughts here, without any conclusions. This is a good discussion.
(1) I like the idea of investing in a new cartridge first. There are exceptions of course. Wouldn't put a $5K MC cartridge on a $2000 turntable.
(2) Looks do matter to me. Aesthetics are important to me. They are not the first criteria, but they certainly are one of the criteria.
(3) Some modern turntables look like they should be in a NASA physic lab. How they heck does one dust some of those machines. Point being here I need one that I can effectively and easily operate at all times of the day (nudge nudge) and be able to keep clean and functioning well without too much fuss.
(4) What does rumble sound like? I'm not sure I ever heard it. I'm sure I couldn't have discerned it on my old Pioneer systems. Now my system should have very little of it, but I have never done an A-B for rumble. That would be interesting. Not even sure how I would go about it.
(5) Hats off to you DIY'ers. If I was skilled enough to create the beautiful plinths that you all do, I certainly would be displaying it front and center in my system. Always wanted to be better at wood working than I am, but I still have all my digits!
In any event, more questions than conclusions. I will say, without wavering, I love my vinyl.
*If* talking new tables the STST Motus IIDQ is a giant killer. I sell them so I wont go on and on, but do some research...( oh and meets the budget easily ).
A lot of decent advice already on vintage idler. You can do some good things in vintage DD at this price too. I love them all but have a slight preference for good DD .
Of course my dream team would be at least one of each type ;)
I have not heard the Amazon so no comment on that.
I owned a SME 10 and compared it directly to my Garrard 301 which had a Ortofon RS 309 D tonearm. The Garrard was easily the winner.
Since then I made some improvements to the Garrard 301. The improvements include an Ikeda tonearm, Audio Silente idler wheel, and Shindo platter/bearing system.
I have no doubt that I would prefer it to the SME 20, which is a fine turntable.
I have heard the Dr. Feikert many times, although not in direct comparison to the Garrard 301, and prefer the Garrard.301.
I will be interested to hear which turntable you select.
Idler drive advantage is considered to be in the area of maintenance of inertial mass and motion under peak deceleration due to high levels of instantaneous deceleration.
Or, to not lose the microstabilty stability of inertial motion in those microsecond level deceleration drags from the stylus’s lateral deflections.It’s one of the reasons we like record clamps. Where the micro drag in transient peaks in the rotating plane is reduced.
this is important but not really looked at when most people talk about turntables. We knew about it back in the early 90’s at least (when I first looked at it, or found mention, anyway...), when we heard about how this particular form of motional stability ’slip’ could, on some turntables...would actually amount to a measurable partial rotation (total of number of rotations) in the playing of a highly modulated record side.
Since we ear via those transient peaks, almost exclusively and don’t actually hear the rest of the signal, then this small area of micro drag in this LP playback sytem, well, this becomes important. Core. The whole ball of wax.
One way to stabilize such a system in that area of analysis... is to utilize a high mass positive torque locked system with high inertial mass in the microsecond level of stabilization. thus a solid lock rim drive with a high spinning mass/high inertial mass motor connected to said rim drive.
Some transmission designs with complex gear sets with small idlers and the like are designed that way for for this exact sort of reason.To damp out micro deviations and to create continual positive lock across multiple conditions of draw. See videos of the massive NASA crawlers and their high speed spinning masses that help damp out micro deviations in motion and drive. The top of those Saturn V rocket was very far away and highly leveraged.. and the crawler must be incredibly stable across all four track sets... so they fell back on known mechanical solutions for achieving stability in the critical ways where such stability is required.
It’s quite likely why these 100kg multiple platter gigantic S100k turntables are considered to be some of the best around (yes i know some are counter rotating).
Thus we can maybe see our way to considering that it really is about maintenance of a state of low micro-cogging of the speed accuracy, in the microsecond-to-microsecond considerations area. It’s why we see turntables with outer platter rim belts and three motors. And so on.
Essentially, if one was to measure the speed of a platter, at lets say, a rate of a million samples a second, with the measuring system being able to actually delineate such an attempt, with low distortion,..and commit such measuring with a low mass platter and weak motor..that the resulting deviation from microsecond considered speed accuracy (and maintenance), would probably look exactly like the transients that are printed into the record.
Where that measurement wiggle or trace.. would represent the dynamic accuracy lost. With dynamic accuracy being critical to the human hearing system, so it would be heard.
Which leads you right back to rim drive, and how it is done in these older designs.
I’m not saying that this is all correct thinking ....but it generally fits all the data at hand. That this set of points in analysis fits all the data at hand (anecdotal and in measurement, theory, etc) in a positive way, and also leaves paths for proofing it.
And to spoil the moment, a bit, yes all that sort of thinking went into our inexpensive (for what it is capable of) MM cart we are selling. All that was considered -and much more. Dynamically, it very much delineates micro and macro.
(I had mentioned all of this above re the idler drive...in a spur of the moment analysis, at an audio show (circa approx 2010) to Art Dudley, when he had just gotten into Idler drive turntables...and he was musing on the why and what he heard in them...as an explanation of the possible reasons behind the 'why' of what people felt they heard in such rim drive turntables.)
4 Garrard 301 turntable with Ortofon AS-219 12” Custom Arm Fully Restored By CTC
Ok then. Lots of opinions as one would expect. Now it’s time to cough-up the cookie dough. Pick one based on anticipated sound quality, or, if it’s some other factor influencing your decision, state what the reason is.
No additions to the list! Though I may grant you a better arm on the Garrard just to level the playing field a bit.
Having just completed a rebuild/upgrade and heavy plinth build for a 1959 Lenco L70, all I can say is I love this thing.
Would I buy one “off the shelf” done by someone else? Likely not. My pragmatism and ability to do things myself, prevent me from that endeavor.
All in, this thing cost me about 1200 in parts and materials, including the TT - which was pulled from a console unit. I have a lovely sounding, looking TT that I happen to do myself. This was a fun video for me to watch. Unfortunately, I saw it after I had completed my build…
Nope, I didn't forget the motor at all. The motor certainly is not directly connected to the platter, there is a compliant rubber coated wheel between the motor shaft and the platter. Speed and W & F should be in the same area as a belt drive minus the slippage a belt drive can have as it's a simple mechanical reduction between the motor shaft diameter and the platter contact area diameter. Slippage on an idler drive is non existent if it's adjusted correctly. Remember, professional idler drives come up to speed almost instantly. If the ratio's are correct, speed will be correct. Idler drive motor RPM is set by incoming line frequency that is held to a very close tolerance. If your looking for the ultimate in speed accuracy and low W & F measurements, the better DD will give you that easily. I have nothing against a well built belt drive table but they have their issues as well. Your ramblings are so full of inaccuracies it puts your credibility in question.
Billwojo, you forgot the motor which is directly connected to the plater in an idler drive. It does not have a bearing? Actually, it has two, one on either side of the stator. I'm sure it is a cool device. But, it is using outdated technology. They did not have electronic drives back then so the only way they could get multiple speeds in a high torque turntable was with a stepped drive shaft. Edgar Villchur realized that the requirements of audiophiles differed from radio stations, that quiet was much more important than torque. In one feel swoop he created the largest single step in turntable technology ever made. SME, Avid, Basis, Techdas and Kuzma do not use heavy, solid chassis? My Sota Cosmos uses a 1" thick Aluminum plate. The excuse I here the most used to justify idler drives is that the torque gives the music more "drive." I have news for all of you. Idler drives are much less accurate over time than the best belt drive not to mention highly accurate direct drive turntables. They have more trouble maintaining 331/3 rpm than any other turntable design, wow and flutter. Their argument against belt drives is that belts stretch. Good belt drives have far less wow and flutter which is were stretchy belts would show up. The belts are stretched tight enough that any resonance is far above a heavy platter's ability to change speeds. What you have here are lame excuses to justify buying and rebuilding an ancient idler drive table. You don't need any excuses. They are wonderful devices and an important part of audio history. You cherish that more than the best absolute performance. I drive an old 911 for the same reason.
I’m setting here looking at a TD124 I, and a TD121. Pretty serious TT. The rumble on those tables is the lowest of all of them. Hands down.. Get a stethoscope listen for yourself at the bearing base
I dug out a Garrard 401 (still 220 50hz) Hmmm??? Tiny I like the 301 better, BUT I know I can get the 401 quieter.
I have my/a Russco sitting on a mobile. I’m setting it up for RtR recording. :-) Working on an air ride, we’ll see. Garrard Killers, you should see the two setting side by side. OLD VW bus vs New Mercedes van.. LOL Twice as big.. Motor TWICE as big easy. 10th HP.. F/motors.. "Drivers start your engines" ZOOOOOM!!!
I have a 47 pounder I started 40 years ago. I did 5 of them. I have one left it’s on my page, it had a bugger or two.
Fairchild, Roberts, and EMT. Talk about "let me line my walls with". The best I ever had was a 750 Fairchild with air lift.. ZERO rumble, 1 minute warm up.. Some one nicked it out of a friends house?????
One Of A Kind SOTA or moded TT are the absolute best, age HAZZZZZ ZERO to do with it..
Get one of each get a good arm or two and then a great cart/phono stage or two.
I’m going with mobile tonearm stands and arm boards for mounts too, tired of stationary mounts, friggen’ PITA.
Too many flavors to stick with just ONE or TWO or THREE, OP, don't you think?
4 is close 5 or 6 sounds better..
For now.. A pair of 124s. Definite Peach flavor.. and a dab of Russco, (flavor yet to be determined).
Idler drives do have different sonics than belt drives and direct drives. For me it’s the dynamic prowess, the sense of liveliness making it a good listen. My Basis was quieter though, and it was a great turntable. My Sota Cosmos was also very quiet with good depth. But I sold both as my 301 has the more satisfying sound in the end. It’s also easy to get parts for and maintain in good condition, not that you need parts that often. The speed switch broke on mine, and that’s about the only thing I’ve needed to replace in 31 years. Also can’t quite believe the eye-watering prices you pay for them across the pond, I bought mine for around £50 in 1990! If you’re interested in trying an idler I’d get a cheaper 301 that might need a bit of painting or cosmetic repair etc, and spend the extra on a tonearm/cartridge and low distortion power supply for the motor. The power supply makes it more stable sounding, gives more depth and makes it quieter by running the motor at slightly lower voltage.
NFS woman in my life, and she'd be pissed at everyone at that juncture.
No children; the ones' I don't know about don't know who or where I might be.....likely a Good Thing for all involved.
Vintage TT's: a near mint Z100 (even the dust cover, NFS), a Teac tangital for playing anything 'old' that strikes fancy but of unknown quality. A Rabco SL-8 arm that needs TLC, but in no hurry to play with.
I'd rather consider a maglev tangital, and leave compressors behind.
But, I'm just like that...Had old & new stuff, not so much my focus.
OHM, Farm Grrl is easy on the eyes but I'd rather stare at your shop. See how much I recognise....;)
The vintage pieces are going to be worth more and more the more that people understand just how incredibly good they are and continue to be good it is a sign of the times because people are sick of being disappointed by the new gear.
Scanning through most of this it seems to me you are on the right track, your best move will be as good a table/arm as you can swing in Origin Live. A close second would be a SOTA with OL arm.
Did you sell your Illustrious? Resolution? If not then moving OL arm to a SOTA would be one way to go.
Of course, anyone here knows I would disagree emphatically with much of what Mijostyn espouses, so I won't bother to point that out for the Nth time. But I did want to remark upon his last line: "There are a few that dabble in idler and direct drive but it does not appear the market takes them seriously." Without knowing the actually numbers, I would wager that the Technics 1200G, GR, and GAE combined, or possibly even singly, outsell any belt-drive turntable on the retail market. So, whatever may be Mijo's opinion of direct-drive turntables, others DO take them seriously. And rightly so.
Mijostyn said
"There is no way in h--l you are going to keep that many bearings quiet." Huh? On my Russco that I'm restoring there is only one more bearing than my belt drive table. That extra bearing is the bronze bushing in the idler pulley. Good idler tables like my Russco were expected to run 24/7 with a simple maintenance every 3 to 4 months so they were massively over built. 3/4" diameter main spindle bearing! Heavy cast aluminum chassis! The list goes on. Ask oldhvymec, he can tell you as well.
I bought a Lenco 78 about 6 years ago to do the Home Depot thread on Lenco Heaven. After completing my first rebuild of all that Jean Nantais instructs you to do, My Lenco with the 10-layered 100 lb. plinth made of 3/4" birch plywood and MDF in both 1/2" and 3/4" thicknesses to vary the resonance with alternating the different materials until I had 10 layers and it was 7" thick--24"W x 20"D. The sound has NO rumble and is quiet as any modern TT. The torque of the Lenco is why it is the king of idlers. Mine also has a copper platter on top of the Lenco platter that eliminates the ringing of the Lenco. It has most all of Jean Nantais' mods and upgrades and some even he doesn't have. I also like the OL arms for convenience of use and their lively sound. I recently bought a used OL Illustrious MK II for under $900 in good shape. It will be a big upgrade in sound. I've had OL Silver II, Trans-Fi Terminator with all the upgrades, and Pete Riggle Woody arms. All were good arms for sound, but the OL was the easiest to keep playing records with. That is why I jumped on the Illustrious when I had the chance. The modified Lenco with the OL Illustrious will be jumping good for dynamics, detail, transparency, and potent bass. By the way, I had VPI Scout, then Classic, Avid Diva II, trying to at least equal the Maplenoll Ariadne air bearing arm/TT in SQ. Nothing did it, until now with the Lenco rebuild and the OL Illustrious--much better dynamically, in live quality of the music, in reliability, and the sound of real live instruments. This is compared to the Ariadne. No contest with the others although they were easier to use and maintain. Now I have the 2-piece chassis from Artisan Fidelity along with their copper platter, and the Walker Precision Motor Controller to keep precise speeds. I was very patient in acquiring all these things and good them at about 40% of the list cost. So even with the Charisma Reference II cartridge (used), I spent under $5000 for all of it. I'd put it up against most any combo in SQ. It did require much work on my part to get there, however. It's not for everybody! But I never did anything like this in my life before and I finally pulled it off with some patience.
The one saying the cartridge is a big jump in performance MAY be right.
@fsonicsmith Thanks. I can see the logic in your post. It makes sense. I can also relate to the pride in ownership that some of you vintage restoration folks have. The last post about spending $30k to realize a $12k value was such horse****
I don't buy a turntable to be beautiful. It has to work in all respects. I can understand being into antiques but not at the expense of performance. Idler wheel turntables rumble. If you rebuild them with amazing parts they will start rumbling in a few months and it will get worse as they age. It was the prime reason belt drive turntables took off but they are admittedly poor at slip "Q' ing. Radio stations got better and FM stereo required better, quieter turntables for commercial use which is where direct drive tables came in. Now you have all these old idler wheel tables lying around for cheap money and a few years and a bunch of mythology later they are the best performing turntables made....not. There is no way in h--l you are going to keep that many bearings quiet. Why do you all think the AR XA took off so abruptly. You have to look at it in context of what was available at the time. Many of the best turntables made today mimic the XA's design in one or more ways. It may have had a lousy tonearm but darn it was quiet and it did not feed back. All of the best turntables made today are belt drive. There are a few that dabble in idler and direct drive but it does not appear the market takes them seriously.
So by all means stick with modern turntables they are better.
Check out my system in my profile. Just my very humble, but if you read Art Dudley's two part piece on the venerable TD124 you will perhaps get the appeal. The TD124 and Garrard 301 were purpose-built meaning that each and every piece that makes up the whole was new and not carried over from some previous design. They have a unique sound, quite similar and yet different, due to being idlers. Idlers sound different than direct drive and belt drive (just as the latter two sound different from each other). The motor on a TD124 is huge and hugely powerful compared to an AC synchronous and the Garrard 301 has an even larger more powerful motor. What is sacrificed in motor noise is gained in drive, force, attack, propulsive-ness when properly implemented. Different better engineered spindle bearings and platters can optimize the sound. And then there are so many choices for great tonearms, Reeds being my preferred match. Once restored from scratch, both the TD124 and 301/401 will last a lifetime, probably two, with almost no maintenance. They were designed and built as transcription tables meaning they were meant to run 24/7 for years at a time. As with cooking, sometimes simple things are best. So that pretty much encapsulates the appeal imho.
Different strokes for different folks, some people have no taste in my opinion. Dr.Feickert’s design is OK, unlike most of the modern turntables.
But Garrard 301 Hammertone is one of the most beautiful turntables, simplicity and minimalism in design is not for everyone. This is state of the art classics!
In a modern plinth like this (many different veneer available) it’s still great, very expensive, but it’s beautiful.
Another example of retro and new is Torqueo Audio turntables like this.
*Most of the new high-end turntables can quickly win my prize for the ugliest design ever, look at the most expensive modern high-end turntables like this :))
I haven’t heard the Dr. Feickert Volare, but I have heard the Woodpecker and Firebird, both of which sounded very good. The AMG Giro, while not as good as the Viella, is very good and in your approximate price range. The Garrard 301, when updated and placed in an excellent plinth is a great turntable. I have one and prefer it to many other turntables. I have my system posted with pictures of the Garrard 301.
If you have a $10K limit, you should consider a Garrard 401 as the performance is similar, but the price is less. I have mine installed in a Woodsong plinth (they can also restore a Garrard or Thorens), which I can highly recommend, then spend what is left of the $10K on a tonearm.
You should probably hear a Garrard 301 or Thorens 124, if you are considering it.
As I cast my eyes over my wood (not oil) work shop and back over a second machine/tool (with oil) work shop, I take note, that just about every tool in both shops are 30-130 years old.
The newest things I have are only for safety. Straps have an expiration date.
At least 100 different TT plinths. Thoren, Russco/QRK/Sparta, Fairchild, EMT, Garrard and 4 or 5 TT kits.
No CNCs here, the newest thing I have (but haven't used this one) is a duplicating machine. Great for carved table legs, guitar bodies and parts, piano parts, Mask, speaker cabinet holes (best I've found for a baffle) and TURNTABLE plinths.
I'm old, I'm GOOD. Some TT are better, just not GOODER, get it?
Click my mystery page coming together. Look at that old Russco and the OLD style speakers.. LOL
SOTA, means State Of The Art,
I say it requires CANI, Continual And Never-ending Improvement to remain SOTA..
No matter where you spend your money on a Turn Table, BUY some new pants.. Give me an address and sizes I'll send you some. :-)
The PLINTH, that's on you.. I'm flex sealing the bottom and inside on two TD124 25lb 4 layer plinths now. HIGH gloss clear coat coming up, hand brushed, wet sanded and buffed to a mirror.. Spring/shock system is added right before the deck it set in place..
You see all that to say.. Some of us like to TINKER and make our own stuff.. Look at Farm Girl, older is better. SHE can wear bell bottoms all day long..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev9oigcIc_A
I should've said - I sold both turntables this weekend. Long story.
I want to nudge my vinyl performance forward a notch or two.
I loved both the Origin Live and the Feickert Volare and I'm considering stepping up the line of one or the other. But I might as well throw the doors open and consider all options, particularly since both are quite difficult to come by (on the used market).
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