Seeking advice on Speakers that create an intimate 2 channel listening experience
So the past month I started a couple of threads on speaker choice on AVS forum (One asked for Powered/Active floor standing Speaker choices and another one around non-active FS speakers for a tube amp I was looking at).
But I've come to realize this was the wrong tact, got lots of flack much deserved and wanted to try to solicit the advice/opinions on this forum which I just discovered.
Short background...Hunkered down in a suburb just outside NYC now for the past 3-4 months, I started to get the itch for a dedicated 2 channel stereo Turntable setup in our living room in May. After much research and twists and turns and immediate upgraditis, as some know on here from other posts, I've finally settled in and now own a Rega Planar 10 Turntable. I also own a Sutherland phono --20/20 with LPS and that's staying. Right now the phono preamp is hooked up direct to a pair of ELAC ARF51 floorstanding speakers (all drivers powered by built in AB amps) which I like a lot BUT ITS HERE THAT I WANT MORE. Btw, I love the ELAC design of mounting the tweeter concentric in the mid driver -- makes sense to me. I kinda wish ELAC would take the same design and make a reference speaker but thats for another day.
So to swap out the ELACs, I will obviously need an amp, but I will figure that out later and want to focus on getting the right speakers for me for what I want. So what do I want?
1. Floorstanders. Close to full range as possible. No subs. 2. Looks count since in my main living room. 3. Speakers that prioritize Imaging Imaging Imaging. That disappear in the room creating an intimate but 3D listening experience. Clean (Accurate) warm sound. No distortion. I would easily sacrifice low end for untiring highs and warm mids I don't listen to metal or hiphop anymore so I don't need loudness, more like lounge experience if that makes sense. Apologize if I got the adjectives wrong but its personal description of what I'm seeking. 4. Price Point - -$10k-25k. Room is 22x18 with 25 foot ceiling
I would like to audition/demo before I buy and since I live in the Tri-State area it should be possible. But I'm finding that obviously difficult to do right now. I listened to a pair of Salk speakers but didn't love them. And have an appt with the Audio Doctor in NJ in two weeks.
@bdp24, whether or not a sound source behaves as a point source or a line source depends on its physical dimensions in comparison to the wavelengths produced. The Rhythmik/GR Research dipole sub is far too small to approximate a line source at subwoofer frequencies.
" The dipole null to either side of planars/line sources/dipole subs eliminates sidewall-to-sidewall modes..."
Not entirely, but it does take the side-to-side modes longer to develop. Remember the front wave and back wave are each spreading out omnidirectionally, cancelling where and when they combine out-of-phase, but not cancelling elsewhere and elsewhen. You can think of a dipole as two monopoles back-to-back, in opposite polarity, with a wrap-around path length separating them. After a sufficient number of bounces the frontwave and backwave have energized all of the room modes, but their energy is also dissipating as this is happening, so a dipole does have somewhat smoother in-room bass than a monopole.
But two intelligently-positioned monopoles approximate the in-room smoothness of a single dipole, and impact is preserved. This is why I use four monopole subs in my system, which is designed to blend well with two dipole main speakers.
"... the sound of the room itself being pressurized is conspicuously absent. Employing four subs instead of two does not provide that benefit, does it?"
I’m not convinced that a net unpressurised room is an advantage at low frequencies. My experience has been that good, solid low-end impact is facilitated by pressurization.
That being said, it is quite possible to configure four subs to not provide net pressurization at low frequencies. Just reverse the polarity of two of them. I have done this and imo it does some things well but impact is noticeably softened, so it is not something I recommend.
On the other hand, I generally find reversing the polarity of ONE of the four subs to be beneficial. Or as an alternative, the phase of two of the subs can be set 90 degrees apart from the other two. These techniques improve the in-room bass smoothness in the modal region while preventing excessive bass energy down below the modal region.
I owned a set of those Gradient subs when I had Quads and agree with your assessment.
As I said before, I have NOTHING against the Rhythmik/GR Research subs. I’ve chosen to do something different, which arguably also works well.
The ICs are you using between the phono pre and the Elacs can be your real issue. I would start there before going down the speaker rabbit hole. There is a company (Mr Cable?) that sells used cables (best value) look into Wire World Series 7+
Also raise your speakers off the floor ~ 4-6" can help more than you would think
You want intimate/enveloping/engulfing and midrange excellence bar none in a listening room as many cubic feet as your - and, naturally, "more" than your ELAC’s - I’d go active again, but bigger and with added headroom; make that the ATC SCM150 ASL Pro, not much of a looker perhaps (subjective, I’d say - I really like their rugged, no frills industrial build-like-a-tank appearance), but in most every conceivable way an extremely capable speaker that, to my ears, floors most "highend" audiophile speakers regardless of price with their outright naturalness, sheer honesty and insight of presentation. The pro-version retails in the US I believe at around $20-25K/pair (there’s a more "civil" looking tower version, though it’s more extensive without sounding better), but with build-in amps and active filters, and bearing in mind both the quality and quantity of their sound (and ’quantity’ here isn’t trivial), it’s close to a steal.
I had Maggie’s and loved them, then went to Vandersteen’s. I’ve had several sets of Vandersteen’s & moved up through a couple models. They continue to amaze me. Time & phase correct...
Push them with tubes in your pre, amp or both. I use a VTL tube pre & SS amp. IMO you need to have tubes in the chain to get them to sing.
Not as well known in the US but becoming a favorite in the studios for its musicality- accuracy and not bright the Amphion Loudspeakers I have their. Argon S 3 Monitors with Svs SB 3000 subs this monitor can be placed anywhere having a rear passive radiator which is far better. Then any port that gives coloration and excellent bass for. It’s size ,as well as their floor standers with correct timing and 6.5 inch wave guide and easy to drive 8 ohm 87 db efficient but’s easy load well worth checking out you hear interplay in music that. Most speaker can’t do unless spending many times their cost.Hand built in Finland and using. All Seas. Drivers from Norway . Well worth seeking out I have shocked many audiophile with their capabilities. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/02/09/amphion-argon-3s-loudspeakers-review/
My room size is nearly the same as yours(maybe 30' wide) and I have Focal-JM Lab Mezzo Utopia speakers each with Jeff Rowland Model 12 monoblocks and they sound fantastic in every way. I do have a JM Lab Sub Utopia so the Mezzo's low frequencies are crossed over at a higher frequency due to the sub. They were $12,000/pr new but you might be able to find a nice used pair for half that.
Imaging and palpable presence are of the highest priority for me. I have found that with the Dali Epicon series. I have the smaller Epicon 2s that with a subwoofer come close to recreating a piano in my listening room. Having said that you should listen to the Epicon 6 or 8’s. If I did it over again, I would have started with either of those models that are medium size floor standing loudspeakers. Also, it doesn’t hurt that the Epicons are absolutely gorgeous.
Spatial X3 or the Cube Nenuphar...no subs needed with either, easy to drive great looks and have draw You in non-fatiguing sound. Won’t take up tons of real estate. Well within the price range.
I also recommend Raidho. I have a pair of D2.1s with a Gryphon Diablo 120 that are decidedly intimate, holographic, warm. They are not full-range however, but I'm not missing anything. Still you should give Raidho a listen. If you buy Raidho used you might make it in your price range (that's what I did). But you price range is perhaps too restrictive for all you are asking the system to do. You can get the Diablo for under 10K and it is one of the very best integrateds out there. Since you like the concentric driver--why not Kef Reference line? Paired with a Hegel H190 or 390, could be a real winner for you. Also worth a listen.
Duke, agree with everything you say above. For clarity, I didn’t describe an OB/Dipole sub as a line source, rather that such a sub behaves like a line source loudspeaker in the matter of SPL drop off as listening distance changes. Even the mighty Infinity IRS suffers from that weakness. It uses a column of woofers (servo-feedback controlled) in a sealed enclosure for bass, a large "wing" with line sources of EMIM’s and EMIT’s for mids and highs. Again, the balance between the woofers and the m/t drivers changes as listening distance increases and decreases.
Your idea of reversing the polarity of one or more subs in an DBA is a great one. Danny Richie displays at shows with a pair of OB/Dipole subs at the loudspeaker end of the room, a pair of sealed subs at the other, their polarity reversed.
Rythmik’s Brian Ding prefers sealed subs to the OB/Dipole, liking as do you the pressurizing of the room the former provide. He finds the OB to sound too lean, without enough weight. Others view that weight as too plump, or fat. Each to his own! To my ears, the OB/Dipole Sub sounds very much like the bass panels in the Magneplanar Tympani bass panels (which I also own), still considered by some as the best reproducer of instruments like bass drum, upright bass, cello even, the lower piano and organ registers, etc., ever offered to the consumer. Some feel the same about the bass produced by the Apogee full range ribbons, which I've never heard.
You really ought to listen to a pair of Wilson Audio Sabrinas. Wilson makes the best speakers in the world, and builds on decades of experience doing so. The most affordable of their floor standers, the Sabrinas are on a whole other level than most of the competition. Wilson has sold more than all other Gigi speaker manufacturers combined with good reason! Unlike some manufacturers, the quality and technology implemented in the top end speakers are also used in the bottom. While their impedance dips to ~ 3 ohms, they are not terribly difficult to drive - I’ve heard gorgeous results with a 20 Watt Luxman Class A integrated amp and even surprisingly good results with the modest Parasound Hint6. Nobody can match Wilson for low distortion! It is related to how they look - the X material and other materials in the cabinet damp virtually all vibrations coming anywhere other than the intended directions, but require automotive style finishes. Also worth considering, but not remotely close in bass, are the Paradigm Personas. they have extremely high resolution, but can’t match the Wilsons in dynamics, naturalness or bass.
WOW, lots of advice. I have a pair of Tannoy Revolution XT8F that I love. They are $1,350. each (pretty much everywhere). I would spend more on an amp. You want an intimate experience? You can't go wrong with a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated amp. The Tannoys love the tube amps. I have Primaluna Dialogue 7 monoblocks driving mine. Sound fantastic at low and high volumes. The amp runs $4,400. Your turntable and 20/20 phono preamp will do great with the tubes.You didn't mention cartridge but I think the turntable come with an Apheta 3 which will give you the balance you want with the tube amp.
For what it’s worth, there actually has been some science done on room size. The School of Acoustics at Salford University (UK) has done a quarter million simulations to determine optimal ratios. Your room ratios look good. I suggest that you look up their site.
Your windows are a real wild card, but the simulations give you a place to start. For the record, I have owned Magnepan, Logan hybrid, and Quad ESL’s, and now use modern Quad ESL’s exclusively with class A solid state.
Try Salk Audio. Jim Salk sells direct so he can afford to build better cabinets and add better drivers and crossovers. They are simply amazing and will blow Spendor out of the water. I know the dealers that participate in this discussion would not like to hear this, but wait until you hear his speakers and compare them to speakers two to three times more expensive.
The adjective “intimate” is used by the OP and several of the respondents. I’m wrestling with this in terms of describing loudspeakers. I love my gear, but so far I haven’t been intimate with any of the various components. (That’s a joke, so just let it go!) I believe it is more useful in describing various types of music and performances than an attribute of a speaker. “Musicality” and “involving” come to mind. I thought about perspective, but that is mostly recording related. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but audiophile terms are interesting and can be confusing. What does this mean to you?
@flatblackround As I’ve been given over 40 speaker choices claiming to all be "the be all end all", Hijack away! As the OP, I’ll start off. To me it means a warm sound, not analytical, that can be played at low levels with all the nuance. Involving is a good synonym..And above all else not boomy on the low end and not piercing on the high. And yes if the pair were female (in my case) well then....
The larger Spendors or Sonus Fabers can be both warm and inviting, yet also high in resolution and imaging ability. You'd never guess it by looking at them but the aforementioned Spendor SP100s are capable of incredible imaging when setup correctly. Allegedly they somewhat reduced the hot tweeter voicing in the new .2 D series.
If you didn't have a stipulation of full-range, I could recommend many other models and brands.
Janszen Valentina P8 (passive) or A8 (active). They are floorstanding, inconspicuous, provide plenty of bass (depending on positioning), and image til the cows come home. Available for home trial.
Unfortunately the Web site doesn’t currently have a page on the P8. But you can email or call, and David Janszen will get back to you.
You can find reviews under "Janszen Valentina" and also under the previous name "Janszen zA2.1".
@iopscrl C’mon dude. Pick the speakers first, then match the amp. Golden rule. Even electrical amp engineers told me that one. BUT if I had to lean in a direction, it would be towards a tube amp, since I spent the better part of 25 years swapping solid state amps in and out of my home theater.
Yes but on the other hand even audiophiles ought to know speakers do not create an intimate listening experience. Speakers REcreate whatever is on the recording. If its intimate and the speakers are any good then they will recreate the intimate experience. If the speakers create an intimate experience regardless of what is on the recording they are inexcusable crap as far as audiophile speakers go.
So what are you looking for? Good speakers? Or a one-trick pony?
Low to medium power tube amps excel at delivering just the sort of captivating natural sounding low level detail that makes intimate recordings hair-raisingly real. So it will help if your speakers are high sensitivity, and with easy to drive impedance. There's a bunch of them that fit the bill.
To me it means a warm sound, not analytical, that can be played at low levels with all the nuance. Involving is a good synonym.And above all else not boomy on the low end and not piercing on the high
There's one company with a whole range of excellent choices that owners describe in almost these exact terms. Highly efficient too.
If anyone is keeping score, it just goes to show how silly but profound my post was. Whether the recommendation came from a dealer, distributor, boutique manufacturer, engineer, or plain enthusiast/audiophile, the responses meeting my criteria (which lets face it wound up being a "best of the best floorstanders" under $25k) yielded almost 50 responses, so far.
I'm not even sure how all these speaker manufacturers stay in business (God bless them). A few picks like Harbeth or Yamaha aren't floorstanders but got so many nods they make it on the list FWIW. How does one even approach this other than listen to what they can and then make a decision?
Here's the tally in no particular order as of July 10th
1. Devore Orangutan 093, 096 (and Gibbon X) 2. Tektan (Moab, Double Impact, Ulfberht) 3. Spendor 100/200 or D's 4. Gershman Acoustic Grand Avant Garde 5. Harbeths 6. Tannoy (Kensington), Revolution XT8F, Cantebury 7. Vandersteen 8. Boenicke W11SE 9. Raidho C2.2, C3.2 10. Avantagarde Zero 11. Wilson Yvette/Sabrina 12. Horning Eufrodite 13. Magnepan 14. Magico S1MKII,S3MKII and A5 15. Legacy Audio Aeris/Focus XD 16. ATC SCM XXXX 17. SoundLab Electrostatics 18. NOLA KO's 19. Bache Audio 20. Audio Physic Tempo 21. Jern 22. Martin Logan 23. Sonus Faber Olympica Nova 24. Spatial Audio X3, X5, M3 25. Audio Note E 26. Pure Audio Project 27. Neuphor 28. Joseph Audio 29. Wharfedale Elysium 4 30. Zu Audo 31. Vienna Acoustics The Music (Used) 32. Dali Epicon 6 or 8 33. Soundlabs Electrostatic 34. Yamaha NS5000 35. Daedalus Apollos 36. Fyne 701s 37. Dynaudio Contour 60i(take your pick), Special 40s 38. Revel Salon 2/Studio 2 39. Audio Physic Avanti II 40. Audiokinesis Azel (Duke!) 41. ProAc K6 Signature 42. Focal Jm Lab Utopia 43. Janszen Valentina P8 44. KEF Blade 2 45. QUAD Electrostat
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