Seeking advice for speakers for my Family Room

You have a lovely house.

The room’s acoustic is half the sound.

Home theater needs fast speakers .

I do not see how you could get what you are looking for with your room.

Lots of reflective surfaces.( floor , windows )

Maybe Monitor Audio Silver series. With Marantz HT receiver .
Focal speakers with McIntosh HT .

A HT receiver or processor with a very good room calibration would help.

But it would add  maybe 20 % of improvment over all .It can’t be a 100 % substitute to a difficult room acoustic.

The room’s acoustic is half the sound.

      I concur!

Thanks for the quick responses @maxwave and @ditusa .

I was afraid of those answers :-(

Room treatments are a tough sell for the wifey....but I do intend to put blinds on all the windows, add a few paintings etc...maybe a larger rug etc..

I am hearing Focal's are bit brighter sounding than the Sonus Faber's, all else being equal?

What receiver would you suggest? I am still in the return window for my Denon x3700H, I got the 3700H so I could eventually add external amplification.

Forgot to mention that I did run Denon's Audussey MultXT 32 calibration for both the speakers I auditioned.

@auxinput  

Where are you when we need you  :-)

lol, I generally don't monitor the Speakers sub forum much because opinions are all over the place.

Klipsch are not that great of a speaker and can sound harsh.  The KEF are going to have a bright edge to the sound due to their metal dome tweeter.  I actually think their metal dome has more of a bright edge than other metal domes. 

The same goes for Focal with their exacting beryllium tweeter or the older generation aluminum dome.

The Sonus Faber are excellent speakers and may work out for you because they are more forgiving in the high frequencies due to their soft-dome tweeter.  In your room, this may be the best speaker solution.  I do not generally recommend Sonus Faber to people who want a fast-responding high resolution home theater system, but it may help compensate for all your hard tile surfaces.

Otherwise, you can try a Marantz receiver.  Their sound has high frequencies that are softened and rolled off.

I would not recommend Monitor Audio speaker because their ribbon tweeters are so bright.  The Monitor Audio sound is also a hard edged sound that would not work in your room with so much tile and reflective surfaces.

I would not recommend Wharfedale EVO 4.4 either because of their ribbon tweeter.  Actually, you should avoid any speaker with ribbon tweeter or metal dome tweeter.  Look for speakers with soft-dome tweeters, unless you are able to compensate with warm sounding electronics such as Marantz.

Seek speakers that are on the warm side, somewhat rolled off on the upper octave.

Absorption panels need not be expensive. One can even have pictures imprinted on canvas to use as covering over self made panels. Look up ATS Acoustics for DIY materials. Much of the needed supplies could be purchased locally. 

There are several Sonus Faber Venere speakers on audiogon for $2-3k used if you're interested.  Dynaudio may be another brand to look at, but I personally don't think they are as resolving as other speakers.

Natural fiber curtains and rug might make your evaluation of bright speakers a completely different conversation. Cheers,

Spencer

Great looking room. Budget a rug, fabrics, heavy blinds. Pull the speakers out a little if you can- get a sub. You are relatively nearfield so I wouldn't get too worried about reflection points. Do you have any slap echo in the room? That's a real concern if you do.

@auxinput Thanks, that's exactly what I was thinking/heard that in terms of warmth: Sonus Faber > Wharfedale > KEF > Klipsch in the 3 speaker brands I was considering/looking at. This is also what I have experienced first hand in my room.

Since Marantz and Denon are owned by Sound United, would you say the Denon 3700h would sound similar to the Marantz?

@mesch @sbank Yes, would definitely be adding curtains on the windows, larger rug, but will look into the ATS Acoustics sound absorbing panels as well. 

@carlsbad Not sure what you mean by the last statement.

@bjesien Thanks! Yes, will add those things surely, I already have the Polk PSW505 sub. I just tried it out, there IS a slight slap echo on the right side of the room (the other side of where my HT/audio/listening positions are). Sounds like I will need the sound absorbing panels as well...

I have a Denon, not as nice as yours. I've had it for 10 years. I think it

sounds really good. I've been using Polk LSi 15s as fronts. The new

Polks seem nice & have great reviews. Maybe you could audition them.

My suggestion.

Before you even start to consider speakers or audio components. Reduce the rooms hard flat surfaces, both walls and floors, by perhaps 75%. By adding large rugs, wall hangings, artwork (sculpture), plants, etc.. This will help break up the worst reflections of what is less than perfect room for sound. It won't be perfect, but at least it will allow you to get a better idea to what a component actually sounds like. As it currently is, your room will make anything sound more harsh and bright.

Since Marantz and Denon are owned by Sound United, would you say the Denon 3700h would sound similar to the Marantz?

I don't have direct experience with Denon, but I would not automatically assume that it sounds the same.  Marantz is also the only receiver to have discrete analog output stages.  The higher end receivers are better.

The floor is a problem.  I had a polished concrete floor that could not be overcome as wife would not allow any room treatments.  Had to move to another section of the house with much better results.

We are a home theater shop we sell many brands of loudspeakers 

Dali Opticon have the perfect blend of warmth and clarity and they look eleggant

Add a highend Integrsted with tubes unison trsearch primo 1400 that will improve music and add warm this integrated will power the fronts

Use tidal waybetter then yt

Als upgrade sub which will add warmth

Thck rug with pad hang wall coverings

I would return denon . Go with nad superior sound and fully upgradable design

Dave and troy

Audio intellect trained fhome theater designers

Please feel free to call us

If you are in the USA look at Revel F36 which have or have recently had some excellent sale prices.  Also consider the Focal Chora floorstanders.  The previous recommendations for Monitor Audio are also good.

Regarding your current subwoofer, it should be replaced.  Sell it and get something good from SVS, HSu, or PSA.

I don't know which monitor audio is you're talking about but monitor audio doesn't use a ribbon tweeter anymore they're using an MPD tweeter in their gold and platinum series which is their version of an AMT tweeter which is very natural sounding I should know cuz I have a pair of platinum 200 ll.

My house is similar to yours with a lot of hard surfaces and some soft. But I have coves and it’s a sonic nightmare. I agree with you that I like Kliscph speakers but they’re just not fit for that kind of room. I switched to Harbeth which made a huge difference and sounded better in the room over the Vandersteens. I probably like the Vandersteen’s better but not in a room like yours. I think the British sounding speakers, Harbeth or ATC, would be better and it worked better in a room like yours. 
 

I discovered something very interesting that may happen to you as well. I listen to music about conversational level not much louder. With my Vander Steen‘s I can only turn the volume on my Prima Luna to about three. With the Harbeth to get the equivalent I turn the same amp to about seven. It seems more fulfilling for some reason. The reason could be due to room acoustics

You may want to consider the Sonus Faber Sometto III, or V's with a C1 or C2 center. I currently own the Sonetto III with a C1 center and actually upgrading to the V's and the C2 center. These speakers are 4 months old and are in a dedicate theater room. Great sound for movies and music. PM me if you would like to discuss any interest on these speakers.

@kgtunes 

We have Focal speakers for our HT set up in our family room. Movies are fantastic and music is very good as well. With some room treatments I don’t believe Focals will be too bright for you. Have a look at our set up on my systems page for some possible ideas for your space. Good luck! 
 

Ron 

Room looks great for audio.  I would tell you the Klipsch speakers are very revealing due to the horns so the brightness you are hearing is from your sources.  

As some noted room correction is needed .  Denon uses Audyssey and then there is  Dirac which is probably the best solution out there today.  You would benefit from some treatments as well

Finally upgrade your receiver and add amps for the additional channels you will find the sound do a complete 360 Denon is decent i have owned three various receivers in the past even their highest end sku at one time.   When i upgraded to even Marantz  from the same company the sound quality was night and day.. 

Start there then find your speakers!

Look into the Volti Audio Razz. $6000 for the pair. Very efficient, dynamic, not harsh or bright. The midrange is so fast & clear , would be great for music & dialogue for movies. I don’t think they make a center channel model but talk w/ Greg Roberts ( owner, designer & builder) & I’m sure he would have some good recommendations for that . They can play very loudly & sound great w/ ease. 

I have a pair of mint condition Focal Area 936 K2's.  I also have a Marantz AV7702 MK II pre-amp, an Anthem P2 with 325 watts per channel into 8 Ohms, REL T7 and T5i subwoofers that should work perfectly for you.  Total price for all only $7,725 plus shipping.  I may be willing to sell individually depending upon what you want.  Let me know if you are interested.

I think the recent set of recommendations is failing to realize that this person has a really difficult room with a LOT of hard reflective surfaces.  I see one medium size floor rug and foot rest.  Most of the recent recommendations won't really work for him, even though they are great items.

IMHO the biggest issue with your setup are the room acoustics.  There are a lot of hard surfaces and it is a rather large open space.

May I suggest instead of adding blinds to the two windows on either side of the TV, use floor to ceiling drapes with back out linings; close them when doing critical listening sessions.  Move your speakers out a bit wider so they're in front of the windows.  This will give you some absorption/ diffusion on the front wall and a wider soundstage for movies. The big factor is the floor.  You need a much larger rug, preferably with a thick rug pad.  Most interior designers specify a rug large enough so the front feet of sofas and chairs in the seating group to on the rug.  Bigger is better.  Perhaps move your existing rug to the other seating area group.  Next, check out GIK Acoustics or Acoustimac for acoustic panels with printed art work to replace the smallish artwork over the side sofa; this will help with first reflections.  Your wife might like the fact that she can choose new drapes, rug and artwork.

Here's a slightly more extensive issue; remove the marble slab behind the TV and possible replace with a diffusion panel from GIK Acoustics. They make some contemporary style panels that would integrate well with your decor. Luckily your main seating sofa is open to the Kitchen behind, which is to your advantage as far as room reflections.

Lastly, (sorry for the long winded response) look for speakers with soft dome tweeters, stay away from horn speakers in your environment.

I had a system layout almost exactly like yours about 2 houses ago! The house I moved into next was perfect for audio. My same audio system took a monumental leap in imaging and clarity with nothing more than a room change. Night and day. Reflective surfaces smear sound and don’t allow you to crank up the volume.

Your biggest problem is your room. And I know you probably don’t want to hear any of this...but no amount of money spent on speakers can fix it.

You have a pretty room but will not do so well with audio. Would be better if the entertainment system was against a short wall but I understand that the short walls are not ideal either as one long wall opens up to other rooms. Still there are simple things tou can do:

My advice is to start with a bigger, heavier rug. About 4 to 5 times the size of your current one. You can run the rug under your couches. Put the rug on a heavy felt rug liner. It will save the rug from dust mites and moths in a way that rubber netting slips can’t do.

Running the same floor tile up the wall is a design faux pas. Maybe take that down and replace with an acoustic wood texture (wood slats etc.).

Use curtains on the windows.

Put some art on the walls but nothing with glass. Exposed canvas paintings are great...wood carvings...textile art...you get the idea.

In a room like that, the improvements will be subtly accumulative.

An acoustic ceiling treatment/tiles might be the strongest solution. Something between your listening position and the speakers.

PSB towers might work, not bright at all.

Before you do anything.

 Try placing the speakers wider or on the outside of the windows.

PLease let us know what happens.

If your tired if bright box speakers try a Pair of Vandersteen multi enclosures.

  Best,

JohnnyR

@carlsbad yes, that is exactly what I intend to do down the road....

@vinylvin I do have the Polks all the way around in my media room, I was going to try and bring those down to the Family Room and try them out..

@auxinput  Will look into Marantz and the discrete analog output

@tony1954 @ricmci @markpop1227  @audiotroy Sounds like I need to attend to the room acoustics first (rather than later).

Will do that and report back.

@singere Meanwhile I found a dealer who actually had the Sonus Faber Lumina V's on the floor, I went by to audition them and I loved them! They didn't have too much in room treatments, so I think with some room treatments (larger rugs, shades/curtains for all windows, some more art or acoustic panels on the walls) with the Lumina V's should be a whole lot better. 

@ronboco I never auditioned Focal's, just went by what I had heard/read about them being brigher (slightly?) than the SF, but man these SF's sounded so good and looked fabulous too.

@searchingforthesound Yes, that is the plan. Another vote for Marantz.

@jonwolfpell @dbensky Thanks for the suggestions/offers, never even heard of some of these speakers. I am still a newbie in this space..:-) 

@soundmd Excellent suggestion on what exactly to do for the room issues. It makes sense to put the speakers wider so that they are in front of the windows for the window treatments to absorb the sound. Will look into acoustic panels, larger rug and artwork on the side wall. The back wall is going to be an issue. Will work on the other things first and see if that makes it acceptable. 

For speakers, i guess it jives well that I loved the SF's, they have the soft dome tweeter!

@sandthemall I pretty much expected to hear it reg the room. 4-5 times larger than the current one? Wow, so the entire surface in front of the speakers should be rug?

I think I can sell that to the wife. Actually, that will help solve the problem of the couch's feet making marks on the white tile! I started looking into vcoustics: https://www.vcoustics.com/, sounds like a whole new thing to research.

Based on all the responses here, I will try and fix my room acoustics first before getting new speakers, thanks all!

For this, do I need to hire an acoustician to tell me what type of acoustic panels go where etc? Sounds like that might be overkill and i would get 80% of the return by just doing the basic things:

-Much larger rug in front of the TV/speaker area going under the couch'

-Add curtains on the windows to the sides of the TV

-Larger wall art on the left side wall

-Re-evaluate. I don't know if I can/want to do anything about the back tile wall. This was the look we wanted...

-Ceiling treatment? What kind?

-Do these wall art panels need to be a certain thickness to be effective at sound absorbtion?

KG,

Glad you're addressing room acoustics before making any equipment changes.  You can spend a fortune on equipment, but if your acoustics are bad you'll never get great sound.  I don't think you have to go overboard on treatment either.  Adding a larger rug and heavy drapes will go a long way on lowering the room glare.  A  2" canvas covered art panel will do some good and won't stick out visually in a Family room setting.  If this were a dedicated listening room I would go with 4" or 6" thick panel; I'm considering the spousal acceptance factor here. 

You could use a much larger artwork here or perhaps a two piece diptych. These really are a relatively low cost way to go.  Do all these changes one at a time and you'll see how each one helps.  Let me know how it goes.  This is one of the fun parts of this hobby, these small changes can add up to big improvements.  Hey, where is your sub located?

Room treatments should be number 1 on your list.  GIK acoustics makes some attractive panels with scatter plates or the art decco series looks like pictures hanging on your wall. I’d get those little triangle things to put in the top corners of the room. Having good room treatments will make the entire place more relaxing even in silence.  Conversations, especially with 4,5,6 people in the room, will be much easier heard and more easy to understand (speech intelligibility).  

After room treatments, hunt down some warm, laid back speakers.  Something with silk dome tweeters would be my recommendation.
 

@kgtunes 

SF speakers are very nice and we auditioned those and the Focals at the same time. The SF were a bit warm for us it seemed the Focals had better detail. You can’t go wrong with SF tho. Happy listening ! 
 

Ron 

-Do these wall art panels need to be a certain thickness to be effective at sound absorbtion?

A sound panel does not really need to be thicker than 2". You only need really thick panels if you want to treat/absorb bass frequencies. I don’t think you will have bass node issues in your very large room and connected rooms.

It makes sense to put the speakers wider so that they are in front of the windows for the window treatments to absorb the sound. Will look into acoustic panels, larger rug and artwork on the side wall. The back wall is going to be an issue

There is a reason to put absorption right behind the speakers. When sound is generated by speakers, the sound waves will be reflected by the walls behind your listening position. Many reflections make their way back torwards the speaker and are actually reflected again by the wall "directly behind the speaker". This double-echo is what you want to avoid. That is the primary reason for recommending you move the speakers wider to be in front of the windows and use very heavy curtains as a sound absorber for mid and high frequencies.

Ultimately, that whole tile floor as well as the tile wall behind the tv is what is killing you. Drywall is pretty okay for acoustics, but you still want to catch first reflections.

Wall behind TV - I would look into maybe doing a heavy curtains here. One heavy curtain behind the tv to cover the tile - or possibly a diffusion panel to cover the tile. The diffusion panel could get expensive. Then heavy curtains for the windows. If you use curtains for both tile and windows, maybe think about floor-to-ceiling curtains so that the window/tile sections all look uniform (this is good for wife-acceptance-factor).

Left wall - you currently have this multi-colored painting. I would look into getting a couple of GIK Acoustics art deco panels. Maybe a couple of 24x24 panels. Or even a big 48x36 if you want. You don’t need a whole lot of treatment on this wall, but you do need some.  The panel should come down to the level of the couch.  Good hint - put a mirror on the left wall and move it around.  If there is a point where you can see the speakers from your listening position on the couch, you definitely need a panel there. See here:

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/acoustic-art-panels/

Floors - put as many large thick area rugs as possible. You have a small rug in front of your couch and I also see a small rug under that coffee table. I think the tile floor right in front of the speaker should get thick rugs for sure.

Backyard windows - this is likely far away enough where it won’t affect acoustics too much, but you can put curtains on these windows as well if you still need a little bit more echo absorption. This will help.

@kgtunes 

What is your budget ?

Hiring a professional is an option.

But it certainly doesn't hurt to get yourself aquatinted with how the room sounds first hand.

Start with clapping several times in the area you will be listening from. Do this as many times as it takes to get a feel for how the room echoes back. Before you clap, imagine what it might sound like and then see if your clap matches your memory.

With each new acoustical solve/addition, clap a few times to hear the difference. After a few months you will start to sense what is happening.

I think you have a difficult room to work with.  Your room opens up to the right with all those hard surfaces.  You lose a lot of compression and lose your sound stage.  Maybe install hardwood floors and put two 9x12 rugs.  The timber of the room would warm things up.  You might add an ARCAM AVR.  They are far better than Denon.  
 

you might also go and listen to a pair of the new Revel Performa towers with beryllium tweeters.  For $7,000 the really sound wonderful with really nice detail.

Your biggest problem is all that open space to the right with all those reflective surface.  So much sound is escaping from the listening area.

Vandersteen series 1or 2 would both work for tour application.

Stick with Klipsch. 

Thanks for all the inputs, all!

Speaker, speaker position:

I think I am leaning towards the Lumina V's which have the reflex port on the bottom i.e. down firing. So, I am thinking I will place these further apart, as you all have suggested, basically in front of the windows, but I would like to place them closer to the wall, I can probably do 1 ft away at the most. I am hoping the down firing bass reflex would help/allow me to get away with that.

Thoughts?

Room treatments:

For the room treatments, i will start with with the a 2" thick acoustic panel on the side wall, probably 48x36, larger/thick rug in front of the speakers.

The larger rug size should cover the area in front of the speakers in their new position (in front of the windows) all the way back to the couches. I am thinking of having this rug go under the front feet of both couches. That should be more than enough? Thickness of 3/4" should do it?

Back wall is going to be tricky to address with the wife. Will start with the above 2 first and see how it goes.

That sounds good.  I have always liked Sonus Faber speakers.  They are very natural and full sounding, good resolution.  The only very minor downside is that they are not as fast/resolving in the higher frequencies when compared to other speakers (such as diamond or beryllium tweeters).

Since the Lumina V is a down-firing port, I would not put any sort of rug or carpet underneath the speaker because it could impede the airflow for the bass frequencies (there's not much space there with the spikes).  Your thick rug should start about 5-8" IN FRONT of the speaker, but should not be underneath the speaker. lol.You should be able to place them closer to the wall.  It is speakers that have rear firing ports that really need to be farther away from the wall.

Having the rug go underneath the couches is not a problem. 

If you move the speakers to in front of the windows and can do some heavy velvet curtains, that may solve a lot of problems.  You may not have to treat the tile behind the TV.

Do these acoustic treatments one step at a time and see the result.  You may end up having to do a second large area rug for that sitting area with the glass coffee table.  You could also do runner rugs behind your couch/sitting areas as well:

https://www.macys.com/shop/area-rugs/runner-rugs?id=190872&cm_sp=c2_1111US_catsplash_rugs-_-row2-_-image_runners&edge=hybrid

I would not necessarily look at replacing your receiver with warmer sounding equipment such as Marantz just yet.  Work on the room treatments first, and maybe your Sonus Faber speakers.  Then see how things sound.

One of these in front of each speakers

https://img.hollywoodpq.com/yb-n8yYXqoL5xLX9iRqNHmDeGnI=/1470x0/smart/filters:format(webp)/https://hollywoodpq.com/wp-content/gallery/ryan-reynolds-choisit-la-pause-peau-dours-pour-nous-montrer-son-costume-de-deadpool/lisbeth-scott.jpg

@maxwave I 100% agree, lovely room, not for serious music production or reproduction.   I spent more to build my sound room than the equipment.   

Just too many hard and reflective surfaces (marble tile floors and the wall between the speakers, the TV between and windows to the sides of the speakers and rear room-oy vey).   

Reminds me of a highly reverberant flat in an Israeli apartment, beautiful but difficult to carry on a conversation.    

@auxinput Thanks, looking into rugs now. 

@fleschler @maxwave As I mentioned in my OP, I am NOT an audiophile nor am I looking at this room to be my critical listening area. All I am trying to do is to have some extended listening sessions at higher volumes without going deaf/cringing. There isn't much i can do other than room treatments, which I will. The windows, I was planning on covering with shades/drapes regardless.

Hopefully, that should help a lot.

I would try Monitor Audio Gold 300 5G there is really not bright sound from that tweeter. I think would fit very well into your room. 

Yes, massive rugs and textured, sound absorbent wall hangings can cut down the reverberation so that you can at least enjoy listening to sound (talk) while watching TV.  I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your goal.  I assume that the current sound is so reverberant that it sounds similar to an echo chamber.

@fleschler No worries. Current issue is just that the speakers sound too bright (even for Klipsch). I have tried Klipsch, KEF and Polk, all of them sounding bright/harsh at higher volumes.

There is a little slap echo on the adjacent section of the room, but not so much in the actual listening area. This is probably because the listening position opens up to the kitchen behind whereas the other section is all enclosed with windows and sliding door.
@ooctaviuss Thanks for the suggestion. but I am pretty much set on the Sonus Faber Lumina V that I auditioned last week and loved.