Reference DACS: An overall perspective
George, there is no Medea II, it is just a version with phase inversion button. Stereophile made little error... There is no difference between two version of Medea(just phase inversion button). Only thing that this(phase inversion) version is almost $1500 more expensive! Otherwise, they are identical. |
Hi All, This hs been a very interesting and gentlemanly thread, with few if any ego-massaging "mine is bettter than yours" posts. I currently have a first gen (non-USB) Emm DAC6 and CDSD. The sound is great. I especially really love multichannel sound, and my system, here on Audiogon under "getting there" reflects this. Having said that, I am trying to simplify everything. The first to go will be my Switchman 3, to be replaced by a Theta 6-shooter. I just bought an Esotric X-01, and plan extensive AB'ing with the EMM gear. Whichever I like best will stay, and the other goes. While I love the SACD sound, the titles that I like are few and far between, and i believe that SACD, if not dead, is on life support. It may stay on as a niche format, but no more than that. I will report my findings in the next few weeks. David |
Welcome back, David! It will be very interesting to hear about your findings in few weeks... Regarding Esoteric X-01, this player really benefites from after market power cords-so try to match some very good power cord with it. In my experience with Esoteric gear Acrolink, Siltech and Shunyata power cords work excellent with their digital stuff. Specially Shunyata Anaconda Helix Vx in a nice match with Esoteric X-01... Also do not be suprised if EMMLabs combo turns to be a winner, real competition IMO for it is new Esoteric D-03/P-03 combo(specially with G-0s external clock). Teajay, just a little hint-Sextet is working more or less as you said in your review... That is very,very good thing. More in few weeks... George, Weiss Medea/Jason is allready world class digital combo(IMO one of the best currently on the market) and that phase inversion button version is truly without extra juice as you said. But, honestly I didn't expect something radicaly different and Medea(Phase inversion button version) was introduced with pro-market in mind( in a first place). |
George, there is no magic change between the 800 hrs and the 1K hrs break in mark in X-01. Rather, this is the time when a user will likely lift all residual reservations or qualification on the X-01 performance. When the product is brand new, the user is likely to notice a certain amount of tightness in the overall sound and a moderate to very significant amount of harshness in the treble. This will be noticeable in most CDs. As you break in the unit, there is progressive opening of the stage, frequency range extends, mids get fleshed out, harmonics ring more openly, and treble becomes more extended and clean. More and more CD listening experiences will move to the, good/excellent/glorious categories. You will find less and less CDs that you will categorize as problematic and etched. To make an example, my recording of the Dumka Piano Quintet Op. 81A by Antonin Dvorak played by the Tokyo Quartet et al. (CBS Masterworks MK 44920) lost its treble etch at the 500 mark. Yet Lara St. John playing Bach works for violin solo on HDCD was still very unpleasant, and became not only listenable but downright glorious after just over 900 hrs of break in. And in my collection, this was the very last CD to hold out as a residual 'problem child'. As for the nature of physical or electrical changes involved in electronics break in: I haven't the foggiest idea! |
Branimir, I was very curious regarding your final take on the Stealth Sextet digital cables with your different digital front end gear. I thought we would have heard from you already, perhaps you just got very busy or you were not through with your audition process yet. Either way it would be a pleasure to hear your opinion regarding the Sextet cable. |
Teajay, Yes, I was very busy! But, that's good... Sextet is excellent cable! I need to listen to it even more but, already I can say that it lighten up some things that I didn't hear before... Thing that I like the most about Sextet is organic/smooth presentation with excellent PRAT! I know that this sound odd but, this is what I heard! It is little bit better overall then my reference Siltech G6 Signature AES/EBU cable. I will put more comments regarding Sextet in few days... Also, there were some changes in my office system-I currently audition Krell Resolution 3 speaker(with original stand). It is a lot better IMO then both Dynaudio Special 25 and Sonus Faber Concerto Domus that were previously in my office system. I just received Burmester 980 DAC and 033 dvd/transport for auditioning-more info in few weeks. Little hint-it is very good! Much better then my Esoteric DV50s with RBCDs... More comparison against ARC REF CD7 and Weiss Medea/Jason combo will follow soon. |
Just thought I'd check in... I'm still waiting for the CDSD. I'm positive it will arrive this week. In the meantime I'm using the Accustic Arts Drive 1 as a transport along with the Stealth cable. For weeks I have had the choice of using an old MSB DAC or my DCC2. The bottom line is that the MSB DAC with all the upsampling defeated and all the filters turned off is so much more enjoyable than the DCC2. The music has so much more honesty and life to it. Sure, it has *lots* of flaws. It is a very raw and unsophisticated but it is also authentic and unprocessed. In this particular set-up the DCC2 is at best, boring. At worst, it sounds processed and smoothed over. You know that awful sound you sometimes get when a solid state amp is 'warmed up and smoothed over' in the hopes of making it sound like a good tube amp? (Having said this, I'm sure that most audiophiles would still rather listen to my system using the DCC2.) As you might have guessed; I've become very pessimistic about digital. The Stealth cable is, however, great. What I will probably end up doing is putting it between a decent transport and decent non-upsampling/no-filter DAC. Having said all this, I still hope the CDSD makes me eat my words. It would sure save me lots of money if it did. |
Exlibris, it sounds like you're a candidate for a higher-level Audio Note DAC. They have all the good stuff you like about the sound of your MSB, but with sophistication. They are real music-lover's DACs. The really good ones (3.1x and 4.1x families) won't save you much money, though. Since getting mine just over two years ago I've lost any urge to go DAC hunting. I've just ordered one of their new CDT Three transports to feed it, and it looks like I'll be musically content for a long time. |
I've been using the CDSD for two days now via the ST Glass cables. I will be getting a BNC cable this weekend to try in a set-up along with the Stealth AES/EBU. I am getting very good sound from the EMM Combo. It is easily the best digital that I have heard in my system. The next step will be to try the Stealth cable. My expectation is that it will be better. Then again, my expectations are usually incorrect. Next month I have been offered the Weiss Medea/Jason to try in my system. That was a pleasant and unexpected surprise. I will be sure to report my findings to the thread. |
Exlibris, good to hear that CDSD arrived! It will be very interesting to hear your impression about Weiss combo... Only one hint-you will need TWO AES/EBU cables(identical ones) for best possible sound. Without them you will not hear complete Weiss potential. In two weeks time I will receive Esoteric D-01/P-01/G-0s combo and of course-report here is mandatory! Krell EVO 505 will arrive in my systems in early April... EMMLabs gear-hope to have them in March... |
Hi, to all of you. I just had the pleasure of moving into my new home, which was designed to be a total open design for my system. 18 foot walls with a 23 foot ceiling and just about perfect regarding not being too bright or damped in the 30 by 50 living space. Also, had dedicated circuits installed for the system. The real killer is its the first time I could have my MG-20r's five and a half feet off the back wall and still be able to sit at least 12 to 14 feet off of them. The change is just beautiful to behold and listen to, my sound stage is now the most realistic I have ever heard in my own home with breathtaking air around each individual player. The great virtues of details, natural timbres, and deep powerful tuneful bass that my system had before are now even more combined in a giant/natural soundstage with individual players staying the right size in the soundstage. My girlfriend, and co-owner of the house, Amor designed our home around the "big rig" so the acoustic space was a major factor. Got to love her for that! No WAF in play around the setup in this house. I'm a lucky audiophile ain't I! This news was a little off the track of DACS, but wanted to share my great fortune of sonics with the fellows who on a regular basis share on this thread. Time to go back and listen to some Johnny Griffin blowing some great jazz. |
After a few days of burn-in I have come to some conclusions: 1. The EMM Labs combo is shockingly good. It is extremely transparent and lifelike. I am officially eating my words. 2. The best way to use these is with EMM's 'ST Glass' cables. Using the Stealth Sextet Varidig AES-EBU to carry the audio signal; a BNC cable to carry the clock signal; and the DCC2 as the master clock, led to a presentation that could best be described as "confused" in comparison with the ST Glass cables. This proves that my predictions about how things will sound are amazingly consistent; I am wrong almost 100% of the time. At least I know that I am not falling victim to the 'placebo effect.' Branimir, I will hang on to my Stealth cable to do the Weiss test. My guess is that I will be staying with EMM and that I will be wanting to sell the cable afterwards. I wish I had a second one to properly evaluate the Weiss combo. Teajay, The two categories that you put forth to begin this thread are still very valuable but I have to say that after hearing the EMM combo it has led me to a paradigm shift when thinking about digital. I had previously thought that digital was a very flawed medium and the best we could really hope for was to pick a 'flavour' that we could live with. I believe that the EMM gear transcends the 'flavour' dichotomy. It just sounds so right, so correct, and so real, in comparison with everything else that I've heard so far. |
Exlibris, I am glad that my advice regarding CDSD was right. My guess was that EMMLabs DCC2 would sound very best with CDSD-very good that is the case(for your pocket!). Regarding Weiss combo, it is an imperative to use absolutely identical two AES/EBU cables between Medea and Jason. Otherwise things will sound very strange indeed... So, is digital search over for you or are you entering "eazy" search mode...? |
Branimir, I forgot to answer your last quest. 'Yes,' the digital search is over. If something falls in my lap (like the Weiss) I will definitely have a listen but I won't be actively trying to arrange auditions. Thanks to you, and everyone, for their help. On to the next search: My system could use more power and quickness at high volume levels. I have an active crossover on the way. I hope it will take some strain off one on my pairs of amps. I am also compliling a short list of big triode amps that I'd like to hear (just in case I want to move away from my 'little' Manley 250s). I started a "Powerful Push Pull Triode Amplifiers" thread but it has pretty much fizzled out. |
Congrats, Exlibris. Just as some of us expected...while I can't really comment on some of the digital front ends that are competing with Meitner, the impact from the modified Phillips to CDSD and using the ST glass is really profound as u have found out. I also love the fact that DCC2 can act as pretty darn good pre-amp but also allows me to investigate introducing a sep pre-amp (tubes?) if I wish....when considered in that vein the CDSD+DCC2 is very comeptitive price wise as well. And thanks on the feedback on ST glass vs Stealth on Meitner...having never exposed to Stealth that feedback is very valuable to me. Given how good some of the feedback/reviews have been on Stealth or other Cerious digital connects, it still remains in the back of my mind if I were to add a second digital source (music server?) and connect it to the DCC2 but for CDSD ST Glass is the way to go, indeed. I am waiting for a host of high end servers to come to the market as I have become somewhat addicted to the functionalist of playlists via usage of the IPOD when traveling which I do a LOT. FYI, I think there will be quite a few coming over the next 2 yrs or so and the prices will surely drop and new technology introduced especially as Intel ramps up its intro of dual core CPUs...obviously can't beat CDSD-DCC2 but just for when I want to listen to playlists etc... |
Exlibris -> is EMM still plagued with problems ? When I got a chance to evaluate it, there were sudden bursts of static noise which you could hear from time to time in the speakers. Also display on the CDSD have had mind of his own from time to time. Other users reported those problems too. I was wondering, if EMM managed to iron them out since that time ? |
Glad to hear that. I think I will have to investigate the EMM combo once again then. BTW - I'm surprised that you have found the ST Galss connection to outperform the AES/EBU one. Many ppl (me including) have found otherwise, as you can read in EMM Lab DCC2 & CDSD Better connection? thread. |
I was surprised as well! I contributed to that thread when I was using the DCC2 with the SACD 1000. The AES/EBU connection was clearly better with that set-up. With the DCC2 and CDSD, the AES/EBU - BNC connection was inferior in every way. It had an especially detrimental effect on the soundstaging. Image placement became smeared and somewhat incoherent. I do think that the EMM combo can be a little cold and bright but, in my opinion, it would be much better to get added warmth by changing things downstream; not between the transport and DAC. |
Exlibris, I'm very happy for you that you finally got the "sound" you were searching for in your digital front end. My only concern, not your comments Exlibris, is that the most recent tone of some of the comments are heading towards whats the "BEST" digital gear in the world. My point in starting this thread was to share information regarding the different flavors of many wonderful sounding DACS, not to prove which digital gear is better then anything else. I admire the Meitner gear, but its one of the best flavors out there, but not the best digital front end in the world. These thread has been great fun and educational at the same time, so I hope it doesnot turn into or end as debate over the "BEST" in the world as many threads end up being. |
Teajay, I agree with you! There is no "THE BEST" digital gear in the world! EMMLabs gear is ONE of the leaders currently on the market but, there are many others that are at least in the same class... Best offers from Esoteric,dCS and Weiss are more or less in the same class as Meitner gear... System synergy(I am getting little bit boring here, I am affraid...) and personal preferences are and will be the final judge in our choice. Meitner gear is excellent but, whole class better then anything else?? At least try to keep an open mind... I will have a Meitner duo in one month time and if it will better my Weiss Medea/Jason combo I will say that and write that here! |
Teajay, I'm certainly in no position to say what's best since I've only heard a few of the top-end offerings. Even if I had heard everything I would probably only be able to say 'what's best for me.' What I will stick to at this point, however, is to say that *with my equipment*, the EMM comes across (to me and everyone who has heard it) as simply better than everything else. I must insist that this is NOT a matter of flavour. Truth be told, I am not particularly fond of the flavour of the EMM; it is a little too category #1 for my tastes. I much prefer the flavour of the Accustic Arts combo. Why then, didn't I buy the Accustic Arts? -Because I believe that there is a -fundamental- difference between the EMM and the Accustic Arts. |
Last night I was able to audition the G(0) clock with an X0-1 Limited Edition. Hard to put into words what the clock does. The effect is clearly audible but does not jump out at you. It is initially subtle but the longer that you listen, the harder it is to disconnect the clock. If anything it makes the unit more musically natural. The transparency does not increase noticeably, it stages a little better but mostly it becomes easier to listen for extended periods, for want of a better description, more analogue. I can only imagine that with a separate transport/DAC, the effects might be even more pronounced. Has anyone compared the G(0) with Esoteric's less expensive clocks? |
In two weeks time I will have Esoteric D-01/P-01/G-0s combo for audition. If this combo will be better then my Weiss combo it will stay in my system. Interesting thing-Esoteric just introduced P-03Universal transport in Japan(USA & Europe late summer 2006). It plays CD/DVD-A/DVD-V and SACD, also it has HDMI. So, now you have a choice to choose with Esoteric D-03 dac, either P-03(CD/SACD) or P-03Universal transports... |
As I said above, the effect is subtle, at least ubtil you remove it from the chain. For me the difference is audible and with the X0-1 LE seems to move the unit a step closer to analogue without sacrificing any of the unit's strengths. Whether or not the improvement is worth the very high asking price is another question. I have not made the decision yet whether to buy the unit but am leaning in that direction. YMMV. |
Branimir, I was just curious about what's happening with your on-going auditioning of different dacs/transports in your home system. I have not heard anything recently that I thought was that special or was significantly better then my Acoustic Arts Dac 1 MK3 and Ensemble transport. It would be great to hear from you. |
TJ , I believe this thread if informative and it's content's quality well above the average here on A'gon , congrats for initiating it. Being a perpetual student type I don't post a lot unless I have something I consider meaningful to add. I own the EMM , dCS and Zanden combos ( in 3 different rooms in my place) and I have listened to most of the other units mentioned by you, except for the Acoustic Arts. So far I had not a clear favorite , but last week I got an APL modified TEAC Esoteric UX-01 ( called NWO-2) which beats them all , and has done that in a non subtle way. I'm presently having a 5 way bi-amped ALE horn system in an acoustically treated room. In short, the sound with this player is having both the dynamics , resolution and dramatic energy ( call it tension, or "having balls") of one group together with the delicacy of the second group. It uses 20 DAC's per channel ( latest AKM crop) and 6H30 tube output. Dan |
Teajay, some of us have to work... I have in my system No.1 Esoteric D-01/P-01/G-0s combo for few days. It is little bit too early for final judgment but, my feeling is that it is better in few very important areas of sound then my Weiss combo. Since Esoteric combo is very expensive I need more time for final opinion... Krell Evolution 505 player will be in my systems in early April( I hope!). Regarding Esoteric I will try to get my hands on D-03/P-03 combo as well as P-03Universal transport as well. I am currently listening to Esoteric UX-3 player and it is a lot better with RBCDs then my DV50s. Since Esoteric will replace DV50s till end of 2006 with DV60(no details yet!) my advice to all potential costumers of DV50s is too either go for UX-3 or wait for DV60... Any news at your side? |
Muratc, Both Boulder 1012 or 2020 are excellent units. Even today these designs sounds very good indeed. Metronome Kalista Reference is probably one of the most expensive(and from design point if view one of the most interesting) cd transports currently on the market. It will work with Boulder but, keep in mind that Boulders(1012 and 2020) are fully balanced desinges and they work very best via AES/EBU connection. I will also suggest that you try dCS Purcell between Kalista and 1012(or 2020)... Purcell may be found here on Agon as used unit for not too much money. This way you will also benefite from upsampling(via Purcell) and Boulder will work at 768k upsampling. If you will be able to try this combo please report your findings here. I am very interested in results... |
Thanks Branimir, the reason I want to go with Boulder 2020 is because I recently replaced ML Pre/power amps with 2010 Pre and 2050 Monos. I'm thinking it will be best to complete the set with the Boulder DAC. As for Metronome, I've heard great things about its Non-reference Kalista transport from a very trustable friend, so while I'm still in a insane mood of buying I might as well go with the best :-)) BTW, 2010+2050 combo is just out of this world (yes, price wise, too) |
Muratc, may I also suggest that you try new Esoteric D-03/P-03/G-0s combo. This combo will cost more or less the same money as Boulder 2020 dac... This is just a thought of mine. Esoteric new units(D-01/P-01/G-0s or D-03/P-03/G-0s combos or X-01 and X-01Limited players) are excellent. And in the build quality they are in the league of your Boulder combo. Esoteric D-03/P-03/G-0s combo may sound even better then Boulder 2020 with Kalista. Esoteric gear also sound better via its balanced connection and is fully compatible with your excellent Boulder 2050/2010 combo. As I matter of fact Jeff Fritz of http://www.ultraaudio.com/ is using Boulder 1060/1010 combo and Esoteric UX-3 in his reference system... |
George, not heard X-01Limited yet but, both X-01 and UX-3 sounds very best via balanced connection. Here is some quote from Marc Michelson review at Soundstage:"One note about using the X-01 Limited to its utmost capabilities: While every sonic point I've made in this review applies to the player balanced or single ended, the X-01 Limited's audio circuit is heavily weighted toward balanced use because of its four-chip-per-channel configuration, and this is how the player sounds its very best. The greater clarity and smoothness along with improved delineation of instruments are obvious. By no means does the X-01 Limited sound bad single ended, but it is unquestionably at its best through its balanced outputs." Complete review is here: http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/esoteric_x01_limited_followup.htm So, yes all Esoteric digital gear is designed to sound better via its balanced connection and they will sound very best when used with gear that also preferes balanced connection(Audio Research,Boulder,Krell,Pass etc.). But, you may use it also with normal RCAs... Of course, you will not get the best possible sound. |
Branimir, thanks for the suggestions. I know that I can't go wrong with the Esoteric combo. But while they are one of the top 3-4 brands for digital. They are also being critisized for being "digital" and sometimes found as too "sterile". Since my setup is all solid state and not exactly with very analog or musical sound, I've thought I might compensate this with some more "analog" sounding front gear. Kalista has been reviewed as the closest digital gear to SOTA turntables. Plus, it's a beauty to look at. |
Sychdeli, are you sure your APL-modified UX-1 is truly a NWO-2 with 20 DACs per channel, and not a NWO-1 with 10 DAC chips per channel? I have read on the APL forums that Alex Peychev from APL intends to show an NWO-2 at CES 2007, but I was not aware he had even built one prototype of this machine as yet. Even in the case of NWO-1, you may be one of the very first people to take delivery of the unit. Please do let us know more about its sound as it breaks in and how it differentiates from your other players. |
Guidocorona, Yes it is a NWO-2 , I forgot to mention this is an experimental prototype built only after I "cornered " Alex Peychev by paying in advance double the amount of the normal NWO-1. (which itself is fully upgradeable , cost to be determined later this year I understood). Pride of ownership does not ranks high in my place, so the reason for my post is that simply I believe this is to date the best of the two worlds Teajay mentioned when he started the thread. I'm an avid listener for the past 20 years and never had heard so "real" sound before , I believe they are so many excellent players out there, I own some of the best, but the difference between the NWO-2 and the rest is clear , you don't need hours of trained listening. After 10 days , the initial impression stands. |
Muratc, as the North American distributor of Metronome, the Kalista is very analog sounding as you indicated. I wanted also mention the matching C2-A DAC uses a tube output. One can fine tune the sound with some tube rolling. It is really an amazing product with breathtaking aesthetics! btw, Metronome has a new turntable, the Gaia, that shares similar Kalista styling, too! |
Hello, to Branimir and the rest of the gang on this thread. I know that you were going to be auditioning new digital pieces and was looking forward to what your experiences have been. So, just checking in , have not heard from you in a long time. And please, if anyone else has heard any DACS or TRANSPORTS that were quite interesting I would love to hear what you discovered. |
Teajay, I'm still waiting for the Weiss combo to be shipped from Europe and I'm still enjoying the EMM combo (using EMM's ST Glass connectors, surprisingly). I probably no longer need that great Stealth Varidig Sextet AES-EBU digital cable that you put me on to so if anyone out there is interested in a great digital cable at a great price, just send me an email. |
