Reference DACS: An overall perspective

Audiofeil, TEAC does not list the DV50 as yet on its USA site. Do you have any info on it?

Thank you pardales, I read some of Altmann's articles. I would characterize them as brilliant pseudoscientific pieces of misdirection. Caveat emptor!

Guido,
I think you mean the DV-60 yes? Please email me outside of this forum; I do have information available.
Thanks.

I think Audio Note has gotten short shrift in this thread, so I thought I'd report that the combination of their new CDT Three transport, the 4.1x Balanced Signature DAC I mentioned earlier, plus a Stealth Varidig Sextet recently purchased from Exlibris is making stunning music chez moi.

My experiences lately have reinforced the notion that it's essential to treat the transport/interconnect/DAC as a system. Making judgements on "the DAC" in isolation seems very difficult. Each of the changes, first of the transport and then of the interconnect, changed the sound of the front end so dramatically that I am now at a loss as to what the sonic contribution of the DAC itself actually is. I do know that the front end is generating more music than I ever thought possible from redbook.

Gliderguider, with all do respect, I disagree that the Audio Note DAC," has gotten short shrift" on this thread. I auditioned this level Audio Note DAC over two year ago, as I reported, and found it to have a great midrange but lacked extension on both the top and bottom end, macrodynamics, and the type of clarity/details I listen for in an reference DAC.

I would rank it as one of the better type II DACS, but would not put it at the head of the list, for the above stated reasons, and did not purchase it for my system.

I totally agree with your pleasure with the Stealth Sextet, I still believe it might be the best digital cable out there today.

Finally, I'm glad that you are totally enjoying your new digital front end, seems their is great synergy between the transport-cable-dac, and agree that a transport can make a very significant difference in the total sound of a digital front end.

Sorry, I was just being flippant with the "short shrift" comment.

I had an interesting experience a few weeks ago that illustrates just how much of a part our mental wiring plays in setting our preferences for "Type I" or "Type II" sound. I had the opportunity for a reasonably thorough audition of a Meitner CDSD/DCC2 in a system I otherwise know very well and like very much. I found I just couldn't get past the clinical nature of the sound, even on SACDs. All night it failed to draw me in, and I spent the evening sitting there relentlessly analyzing and wishing I was elsewhere. Obviously it was a sheer relief to return home to my AN gear.

Experiences like that make me want to ask for a definition of terms when someone uses the word "reference", because it appears to me that there are two very different, and possibly even incompatible value systems at work here. The "Type I and Type II" distinction hints at this, but I wonder if there isn't something deeper going on in our brains to cause some of us defend so fiercely sound that others find fundamentally lacking.

Gliderguider, I greatly appreciate your remarks regarding the subjective aspect regarding how/why an individual responses to the sonics of a specific piece of gear or the overall perspective of a total system.

I, too, have had the experience of listening to gear/systems that I respected regarding specific parameters, such as details, clarity, dynamics,etc., but left me "cold" on an emotional or visceral level. It's a similiar experience I have with certain jazz players, I'm a serious jazz fan, were I admire their skills, but do not connect on a psychological/feeling level.

What we are discussing is often described by many reviewers as the difference between an "audiophile" amp or speaker in comparsion with a "music lover's" piece of gear.

I believe there are pieces of high end gear that have all the analytical components along with what I and my audiophile/music lover friends refer to in our lexicon as a "musicality/liquidity/organic sense" that many other pieces lack. We do not believe this is the same as an "euphonic warmth" find in many systems when the individual is trying to get rid of a brightness/harshness by warming things up.

Finally, regarding digital front ends, my categories of type I or II was an attempt to offer a structure that hopefully could lead to an ongoing, respectful interesting discussion, which to my delight it has, regarding these sonic prespectives found in the different reference DACS.

Actually, today I have heard the Altman dac (the system: Avantgarde Trio, Ear 864 integrated, shakti, mana,). The dac was connected to a Mac notebook. This system is sounded not like a hifi system, but real music. I have heard this system earlier, where the Tro was driven by an AN Kageki and Accuphase Dp 100-101 dac. That was a wonderful hifi reproduction of music. This time, the system sounded completly differently, but closer to real concert than any system I have ever heard.

I discovered this thread and would like to respectfully add the Metronome "C2A Signature" DAC. It has a tube output, a separate matching chassis for the elaborate power supply as well as other advanced features.

The Metronome C2A Signature seems to capture very low level resolution quite spectacular but sounds more analog than digital. I am convinced the robust power supply contibutes mightily to this achievement.

If anyone has questions, please contact us off board through our website http://www.tmhaudio.com

Jim Ricketts/tmh audio

In his article Digital Zen Dick Olsher wrote:
"In my experience, zero oversampling gives the impression of a more believable soundstage. The spatial impression in terms of depth and width perspectives is typically better defined relative to oversampling designs. It is as though the auditory system is presented with a better set of cues with which to synthesize a 3-D impression of the auditory stream."

This is what I've experienced as well. This is a quality that is outside of our "Category 1 vs. Category 2" dichotomy. Some DACs get this right and some don't.

If we were to present the "Category 1 vs. Category 2" model as a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being extremely Category 1 and 10 being extremely Category 2, then I'd might rate my preference as a 7. Having said this, I would rather own a DAC that registerd a 1 on this scale, and got the spatial impression right, than a DAC that was a 7 and got the spatial stuff wrong.

As Ajahu says, it is the difference between listening to "real music" as oppossed to a "wonderful hifi reproduction of music."

Exlibris, sorry to disagree with you on this one, however I have found no correlation between non-upsampling DACS vs upsampling DACS regarding a more " believable soundstage". Now, all the non-upsampling DACS I have auditioned were tube based, and my hunch is that you might find this type of sonic presentation more pleasing then SS DACS.

So, I don't think that the spatial qualities of non-upsampling DACS is superior to upsampling DACS, in my experience, and that either strategy is superior to the other. Both upsampling and non-upsampling gear can offer great performance.

Teajay,
No worries; we'll just agree to disagree.
To be honest I probably haven't heard a big enough sample of both types in my system to really draw that conclusion.
As for 'tube vs. solid state,' I've never heard a tube DAC in my system. Like the Attraction DAC itself, everything has been SS (ARC; EMM; dCS; Accustic Arts; MSB).

Just had a new acquaintance, who happens to sell hi-end gear and is an experienced audiophile, come over to listen to my rig.

His major references are Meitner and DCS. He was amazed at the sonic performance of the Accustic Arts DAC1 MK4. He found it to be just as detailed/dynamic as the above mentioned digital front ends, however he thought it was more "real and more naturally musical" to use his words.

Well, its always good for the old audiophile "EGO" to have someone knowledgable to give your rig kudos, but I wanted to share this because I think the MK4 really is one of the better references out there, at a reasonable cost. My new friend is seriously considering auditioning the Accustic Arts piece to replace his much more expensive DCS front end.

I just wanted to check-in with Branimir, hope your having a delightful summer, and see if you have listened to any new DACS or CDPS since the last time you posted. If I remember you were going on holiday, but you were going to go to some high end shows or at least hear some of the new digital gear in your home systems.

I'm still very much enjoying my Accoustic Arts Dac1-mk4 and find it to be one of the better digital front ends I have had the pleasure of listening to. The only new DAC that I have recently listened to was the Goldmund, thought it was quite good, however it did not impressive to the point that I would pursue a home audition.

I've purchased a DAC that I believe falls in the "Reference" category. One of the nice things about it is that it comes as a less than "Reference" price ($1,000).

I had been using an EMM Labs DCC2 DAC and CDSD transport.

Since the new DAC only accepts RCA digital cables and my CDSD transport didn't have RCA digital outputs, I ended up borrowing an inexpensive CD player (Synthesis)to use as a transport and an inexpensive digital RCA cable (Cardas 'Lightning') to try out the new DAC in my system.

After about 5 minutes listening, I knew that the EMM Labs gear would be going up for sale. I couldn't believe how honest and musical the presentation was. This DAC excels at 'time and space.' You don't have to use your imagination to 'see' the musicians in their space or 'feel' their music fill your room. Honest, musical, natural, unprocessed, and real are words that come to mind when listening to this DAC.
I can only imagine what will happen when I get a decent transport and digital RCA cable for it.
I know longer have my EMM Labs transport and DAC.

In short, I agree with Dick Olsher in his review "Digital Zen." The Altmann Micro Machines Attraction DAC "has given me the best CD sound I have experienced...cost no object."

I got my EMM gear updated to the Signature e version....the biggest difference seems to me is when playing redbook CDs...more natural than b4 with more solidity

I sold my EMM gear with no regrets, now that I have an X01 limited. It just fits my preferences. No ore digital purchases for me, until hard drive-

Davidbased media comes of age.

David,
Have you heard a hard drive-based system that sounds as good as a reference-level transport?
With all the high frequency switching going on inside a computer and the type of cabling used at the output of the computer, I can't imagine that the sound would be that good.

I'm a bit surprised that noone mentioned the MBL stuff. I recently tried their new integrated CDP - the 1531 - and I'm very, very impressed. So much in fact, that I have pulled the trigger and ordered one for myself.

I have been looking for a new player for some time now. After selling my AA Capitole mk II SE I have tried several different players from all price points, including - among other things - the whole Audio Aero line (wanted to stay brand loyal at first, so I tried the new Capitole Reference, Capitole Reference SE and SACD Prestige) and also the non signature EMM Labs CDSD/DCC2 combo.

None of them impressed me so much as the MBL. It came as a surprise, since I have never really cared for any german Hi-Fi. The first time I switched it on, I was floored. It was by far THE most natural sounding player of the lot, with HUGE soundstaging and very good resolution. But among other things, this player presented music in a very unprocessed, free flowing way, as If it had a non-os dac hidden inside. The music was just ... real.

True - it gave up a bit in resolution department and HF air comparing to EMM Labs gear for example, but it had better stage depth, more solid bass, and oh so much more belivable midrange that it was a no brainer for me.

And best of all - it only costs $9000. That is right - just NINE grand. I cannot imagine how their more expensive combinations (1511/1521 and 1611/1621) must sound.

I haven't heard hard drive systems yet. I'm just anticpating that they will eventually be very good. I have heard the high price MBL CD transport/DAC in an all-MBL system and it is very, very good. And very,very expensive.

David

Elberoth2,
I too am surprised that we don't hear more about MBL.
When I started a "reference transport" thread and I assumed that someone would mention the mbl 1621A or 1521A.

Having referred to this tread over the past several months as I was auditioning top transports and dac combinations I thought that I would add a few of my impressions. I auditioned the dCS stack (without the Verona clock) against the Zanden transport and dac at a dealer who used all Zanden electronics and Peak Consult speakers. dCS had a great soundstage and lots of detail. The Zanden by comparison struck me as having a very distinct, unique coloration to it. Compared to the dCS it was as if the sound waves were rounded off. Setting aside this sense of coloration I found the Zanden to be much more involving and pleasing for a broad range of music (new and old recordings, classical to jazz). At a different dealer I then auditioned the dCS stack (with the clock) against the mbl 1621A transport and 1611E dac with all mbl electronics and Kharma Equisite Reference speakers. The dCS again produced a great soundstage and lots of detail. But the mbl was noticeably better. Instrument detail and separation was better, as if each instrument was illuminated. And the soundstage took on a more 3 dimensional character. After listening to a track on the mbl it was hard to go back to the dCS. I also demoed the Zanden and mbl in my system: Cello Music & Film Strad Grand Masters, Performance II amps, Audio Palette and Encore preamp. The Zanden was like a fine red wine, rich and totally involving. I wanted to listen to the entire disc not just my test tracks. But the mbl won out. It achieved a rich involving sound plus plenty of detail and again a more 3 dimensional soundstage, not just a wall of sound. I also auditioned the mbl 1531 and as a previous poster said for $9K it is a great buy. Lastly my test discs included RBCD’s as well as multichannel SACD’s. Comparing the dCS (which played the SACD layer) to the Zanden and mbl which are RBCD only confirmed that at this level RBCD can sound better than SACD.

Finally, I finished this thread from start to finish, over last few weeks. Lots of good first hand impressions on variety of Transport/DAC combos. Quite a few folks have done a pretty good job of describing the auditions they have had. Using the subjective sound parameters like describing what they heard : detailed, musical, time and space, sound stage, etc and finally 'assigning' the type of flavor the DAC presented. I thank Teejay for starting the thread and being proactive enough to get the thread and inputs going.

Throughout the thread I wondered, what does this all subjective impressions means to ME? What is a reference (close to live, right?) sound? Is it flavour 1 or 2? Surely it can't be both, i thought.

Not untill Ajahu's thread the term live sounding or realistic sounding came up! And only since last few threads classification of live sounding dacs describd as being 'between' flavour 1 and 2!! And I think to me only now it is becoming clear how and what to interprete from what long past posts were trying to describe in their subjetcive impressions. To me live sound IS between flavor 1 and 2, probably more towards number 2 than 1. More like Exlibris rating scale of 7.

Having said that let me post some of auditions that I have had in last few months. Thesa are my impressions. No offense intended.

Jadis JD1/JS2(?) DAC combo: Very detailed, great sound stage, mid range on slightly 'thinner side', very good bottom end, but still slightly digital sounding (sorry)I would give that sound as may be 3 or solid 4. This was auditioned in very well highly acclaimed and regarded (read expensive) amplifications and speakers.

MBL 15xx transport and DAC combo was somewhat similar. I was overwhelmed with lot of details, illuminated instruments less weighty midrange and wanted to stop the music like right now. Scale would be once again 4 or may be 5. This too was auditioned in very good rest of the equipment.

DCS stack (purcell. delius) blew me away at first listen, honestly. The strings were out of the world sounding at first listen. You can almost feel the srings being played in the soundstage rigt infront of your eyes. Well good, lets us proceed with other types pf music, say like guitar, orchestral and vocals and piano. While later CDs sounded good, i found later that the bottom end on mids was actually lacking and soundstage was rather weird I thought ( now it could be the set up, but I have heard very realistic sound in this system with Transrotor/triplanar/sheltor 501 as front end. In fact this was one of my reference sound, with anlogue as front end). Upon much thought the reason for my initial being blown away impressions could be slightly enhanced harmonics. Okay so the DCS set up gets may be solid 4.

Accuphase transport/dac combo: I am afraid the sound was rather similar to MBL combo. Not much to say here. A solid 5.

Audio Note DAC 5.1 Balanced with CEc T0 (?) Transport in all audio note system. WOW! was my instant reaction when started with chamber music and that wow factor continued thru rest of the music types i played. True, natural, dynamic but relaxed presentation. For once no faults to be found. Music sounded so good that you do not end of judging the sound but rather enjoying very realistic sounding music. True to life tonal balance, just the right amount of high freq content. Truely weighty mids. Not once it sounded 'funny or processed'. In other words a perfect 7!! It easily surpassed the Transrotor TT (Transrotor to of the line) sthru an audinote phono. (although i cound be wrong here since i auditioned only one record) The audio note sound reminded me of my own Classe CDT-1/DAC-1 combo, which I would rate as solid 6. I know it can use a just a tad little more upper high. But i will leave good enogh alone. High freq is kind of tricky. slightly more and scale tips to lower pretty quikly. Of course it is an 'ancient' design as compared to current mega bucks 'reference' dacs, but it still stunns me every time I sit down to listem to music.

Trust me I don't WANT my old Classe DAC to sound this good so that may be I have excuse to get one of these high $$$ proud of ownership dacs that makes a statement and I can brag about. May be Audio note would give me bragging rights (since it is rather expensive);-) Although this Altman Attraction Dac intrigues me.

I read somewhere (here or AA) that one person liked the Attraction better than his Audio Note 4.1. I still find it hard to believe that the Attraction could best the AN 5.1 or the Zanden 5000 but who knows? I own the Attraction and I've never heard either of the other two in my system. In terms of price we're comparing apples and oranges. In terms of performance, I don't think it gets much better than this trio.

Exlibris, you have made some major changes in your system in a relatively short period of time! It seems that you are extremely pleased with how your total system sounds to you. Well, congratulations, your thoughtful effort and time put in has gotten you what you wanted, so enjoy the music.

Now, some questions for you, I'll look forward to your responses, thanks in advance.

1) Please share in more detail what the Attraction DAC offers you, that other upsampling SS DACS did not in your listening experiences. Remember I only care about redbook not SACD.

2) I had a ML-31.5 transport and thought with my gear that the reference Ensemble sounded better. If I got it correct you just replaced your Accustic Arts Drive 1 with the ML-31.5. What differences between the two transport did you hear that lead to your decision.

3) I will be receiving in the next day or two the new version of the Accustic Arts transport that is a major upgrade parts wise compared to the first generation and was developed by Accustic Arts to bring out the best possible performance from the their new MK4 DAC. I will be writing a review of my audition experience in the next couple of weeks. Did you consider this new version of the Accustic Arts Drive 1 or were you so enamored with what the ML-31.5 offered that would be no reason to audition it?

Thanks Teajay.

1) Please share in more detail what the Attraction DAC offers you, that other upsampling SS DACS did not in your listening experiences. Remember I only care about redbook not SACD.
Speaking very generally, I find oversampling DACs to either sound somewhat 'processed' or somewhat 'confused.'
I'll be the first to admit that some of the 'processed' sound can sound enjoyable. In my system, for instance, the AA DAC showed warmth and nice dense images. It just didn't ring true to me: the immediacy and excitement of live music was missing; the musical inter-play between the performers was missing. This is a great DAC but I just wasn't excited about coming home and listening to music when I had it in my system.
It was definitely not 'confused.' Confused oversampling DACs show images with shadows and fuzzy outlines. They barage the listener with information but very little music.
In addition to 'processed' and 'confused'; every oversampling DAC that I've had in my system had problems in the time domain. It is as if the images had difficulty breathing their energy forward toward the listener. As a listener I am left to watch the music on the stage. I have to 'go to' the images. In real life, music comes to you.

2) I had a ML-31.5 transport and thought with my gear that the reference Ensemble sounded better. If I got it correct you just replaced your Accustic Arts Drive 1 with the ML-31.5. What differences between the two transport did you hear that lead to your decision.
3) I will be receiving in the next day or two the new version of the Accustic Arts transport that is a major upgrade parts wise compared to the first generation and was developed by Accustic Arts to bring out the best possible performance from the their new MK4 DAC. I will be writing a review of my audition experience in the next couple of weeks. Did you consider this new version of the Accustic Arts Drive 1 or were you so enamored with what the ML-31.5 offered that would be no reason to audition it?

I had every intention of using the new Drive 1 with my Attraction DAC (though I have never heard this transport).
I was then offered a good price on a 31.5 from a friend and I took him up on it. The Drive 1 may be better for all I know. There is a very good chance that I will be able to do a comparison of the new Drive 1 and the 31.5. I will post my findings when I do. The other transport that has me excited is a battery-powered CEC TL-1x from Reference Audio Modifications.

I should note that I took the plunge and picked up a used Zanden 5000 mkIV solely to compare it with my Attraction DAC! (They don't sell Zanden around me and I couldn't get a demo). Here is my expectation: the Zanden will be better on vocals; the Attraction will be more fun to listen to in every other respect.
We'll see!

I just got my Attraction DAC back from Germany after having a few upgrades installed on it.
If you are going to order one of these DACs be sure to get the JISCO option. Don't even think about not getting it; the difference is not subtle.

I have just submitted my review of the the new Accustic Arts Drive 1-MK2 here on the GON. It was hard for me at first to believe how it out performed my Ensemble transport with the Accustic Arts DAC 1-MK4 in my system. So, to say the least, its a keeper in my system and my new reference. For details, take a look at the review, if you then have any questions/comments post either here or on the review thread. If your thinking of auditioning reference level transports, please put the Accustic Arts MK2 on your list, its quite good and reasonabled priced for a reference piece.

Thank you so much. What an extraordiary thread.

Just wanted to share that a good audiophile friend came over to hear the combination of the Accustic Arts Drive 1-MK2 and Accustic Arts DAC 1-MK4, since he had not heard my system since I replaced my Ensemble transport.

His reference is the Meitner gear, along with great experience with both the full stack DCS and the high end Esoteric CDP's. Remember, the only thing I care about is Redbook performance, he thought the Accustic Arts combo was really very "special" in that it was very detailed/dynamic and yet very airy and musical, to use his words.

So, I'm not even suggesting the Accustic Arts combo is the BEST in the world, just sharing, at least to salient points: 1) That the sonic signature of the Accustic Arts combo offers the best synthesis of type 1 and type 2 virtues I have had in my system so far. 2) The Accustic Arts gear is not inexpensive, but based on build quality and performance it offers world class sonics at a very reasonable price compared with the competition.

Exlibris, Although it is only one week since you got the Zanden DAC, I (and I am sure many others) eagerly awaits your impression on the Zanden Sonics. And its comparision to the upgraded attraction DAC. Zanden reviews that I read are extraordinary glowing. But true test is listening with your own (or fellow agoners!) ears. Thanks in advance.

Nilthepill,
I ordered the Zanden a week ago but I don't expect it to arrive until next week.
I will be sure to post my review.

Exlibris, now that I have had the Accustic Arts Drive 1-MK2 in my system for over a week, I would highy recommend you set up an audition to try with your new reference DAC. I believe the AA transport is on a much higher level of performance compared to the Levinson 31.5, and would make your new DAC "sing" even better then its does now. A great combination of speed/detail, a totally black background and a very silky/smooth easy presentation. So, I hope you can listen to it in your system, I would love to hear wht your opinion would be compared to the 31.5.

Teajay,
Thank you; I'm positive I'll have a chance to do the comparison.
To my great surprise, it turns out that changing transports doesn't make much of a difference with the Attraction DAC (with JISCO re-clocking device) but it will certainly make a big difference with the Zanden DAC.
I'm guessing that the AA is better than the 31.5 because it does of better job of keeping the signal time aligned (it doesn't add as much jitter).
I should have the Zanden next week and regardless of what I think of it as compared to the Attraction DAC, I will keep both for a few months at least. I want to see how each 'synergizes' with a pair of tubed preamps that I'm going to be listening to next month.

Well, I received a used Zanden 5000 mkIV today.
It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that the following are just MY opinions of how the two DACs sound in MY system.

The Attraction DAC has a more extended bottom end, more bloom from the midrange to low frequencies, better image density, and throws a larger sounstage. The Attraction offers a big, enveloping sound. The Attraction is more 'lusty' and in some ways more typically 'tubey' than the tubed Zanden.

As expected I really enjoyed the vocals through the Zanden. The Zanden has better high frequency extension, better prat, better microdynamics, it is more transparent and it lights up the soundstage with more ambient information.
The Zanden is a cleaner sound and the Attraction is a more seductive sound. On a scale where 1 represents 'analytical' and 10 represents 'romantic': in my system and room (which can be a little bright) the Zanden is a 5 and the Attraction is a 7 or 8. One might think it should be the other way around.

How much is the Altmann in USD?

Exlibris, Thanks for Zanden and Attraction initial comparo. I am sure you would like to break the Zanden a bit, even though it is used, before making a final rating scale on it. But inital comparision would indicate, per your earlier definition of 7 being perfect, Attraction to be more desirable? Which one's tonal balance, weight and articulation sounds like live music? If it is true that is some achievement at the attraction's going price. Let us know your final conclusion on these two.

It depends on what options you pick for the Altmann.
The model with all the bells and whistles (this is the one that I have), is about $1,700 USD.

Nilthepill,
'All things being equal', 7 is perfect for me.
The tonal balance of the Altmann sounds like live music.
The weight of the Altmann sounds like live music.
The articulation of the Zanden sounds like live music.

I hope to get the Zanden close to the Altmann in the first two categories by adding Altmann's JISCO re-clocking device.
Adding the JISCO to my Attraction DAC helped the weight, tonal balance, low frequency extension and mid-bass bloom. These same aspects improved in an older digital configuration that I had when I added the Stealth Vardig Sextet digital cable. Like the JISCO, I believe that this cable helps to keep the time signature marching along at the proper pace. I have thus come to the temporary conclusion that getting the timing right in the digital domain goes a long way to 'fleshing' out the music, especially below the midrange.

I think I could get the articulation of the Attraction close to that of the Zanden if I changed the battery that I am currently using to a much more robust one suggested by a user on another 'Altmann' thread (which for some reason has been pulled by Audiogon).

Exlibris, you are right, the Altmann Attraction DAC thread in the Digital Forum of this site has been removed. Does anyone know why? When things like this happen, I think there should be some explanation by the moderators.

BTW: Well done on your thoughtful and careful comparisons Exlibris.

Pardales,
Thank you. I will receive the JISCO in 3 to 5 weeks and report on what it does in combination with the Zanden DAC.

Nilthepill,
The bottom-end of the Zanden has opened up a little after many hours of use.
I'm not sure I'll have a final decision on these DACs anytime soon. I plan to just keep them both and move them in and out of my system when trying out different components (especially linestages). The Attraction puts out 5v and the Zanden only 1v. How the DACs compare to one another in a particular system may largely come down to the synergy between DAC and linestage.

I asked the moderators, and they said that all threads are set to expire and be deleted 30 days after the first message. They said a small number of thread are maintained beyond that point if the thread raises issues of longer-term value. They also said they'd be willing to revive the Altmann thread if I could identify it by subject heading. I did my best to remember, but probably didn't get it right. If anybody else can remember the subject heading and wants the thread revived, send an email to customer service, to the attention of Brian. Thanks.

Thanks Exlibris. Let me know when you have completed trying both DACs out with different linestages. Different out puts may not make big difference if you compare with right volume match. Agree that synergy and system match big difference as to how DAC would perform, but still your comparisions will be helpful.

It sounds like Zanden bottom-end opening up will have overall sound to move towards the right reference number(7). - musical and warmer sound?

I believe the thread was called "Is the Altmann Attraction Dac really the best?"

I'm making the switch to a tubed linestage and it looks like I will be going with the Zanden 5000 mkIV as my DAC. I really love the way it handles vocals in my system.
Right now I'm just waiting for the Altmann JISCO to add to the Zanden.

Exlibris, Does this mean you are going to let go the Altmann DAC? Why not go with Zanden tubed linestage? (Synergy). I am glad u provided inputs. That is one up for Zanden in my book, As I continue to struggle with my own Transport DAC upgrade, this kind of gives me a good valid data point.

I'm not sure what I'll do with the Attraction. I still haven't even tried it as a DAC for 24/96 (and higher) formats.

I'm sure the Zanden linestage is excellent and if Zanden wanted to send me one to demo I would welcome the opportunity! :-)

Right now I'm trying the Aesthetix Callisto linestage and I'll be trying the Atma-Sphere MP-1 as well. Who knows, maybe my system will sound better with the Attraction in place once I insert the MP-1?

I won't go into details about the Callisto because this thread is about DACs. I will say, however, that I've listed my Blowtorch for sale.

Interesting thread Exlibris, I had a similar experience with a tubed Audio Logic Dac and a Museatex Bitstream Dac.
The Bitstream sounds the way you describe the Altmann Dac, I kept it and sold the Audio Logic.
A few years ago I posted a thread on the Altmann Tube-O-Lator kit, a laquer based substance used to coat transistors and chips for a warmer, tube-like, natural sound, but it didn't get too much attention !
Is the Altmann Dac sold direct only ?

Yes, the Altmann DAC is only sold direct.
Here is the link:
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/attraction.htm

I'm also interested in his ideas on acoustics and the effect of laquer on wood in rooms.

Exlibris, I give you much credit for your tenacity regarding home auditions of different gear in order to get the overall sonic signature and synergy you want in your system.

I also believe this ongoing thread regarding reference DACS proves the following:

1) That by setting up a common language or categories like type 1 or type 2 "flavors" it allows use to share information in an useful and productive way.

2) That personnal taste, along with system synergy, is really the final determinate about why we finally settle on the pieces of gear in our systems.

When I auditioned a very high level non-upsampling Audio Note DAC and the Zanden DAC I too heard a wonderful warm and liquid midrange, very much like a SET tube amp, but neither DAC had the extension on the top and bottom that I would want in my system. I also found that they were not as detailed as other DACS that I auditioned. I almost totally listen to acoustic jazz, recorded in the 50's and early 60's on analog tape, so timbres are very important to me, therefore I can understand why voices sound great to you on the Zanden DAC. It's pretty clear that you are very much a type 2 "flavor" in your digital front end. In my system I want the warmth and liquidity of a type 2 "flavor" along with more slam/dynamics and extension of type 1 "flavor" DACS. I found that in the Accustic Arts DAC 1 MK3 at first, and now at even a higher level with the combination of the new Accustic Arts Drive 1 MK2 along with the Accustic Arts Dac 1 MK4.

No right or wrong, personnal taste, system matching leads us to what gives each of us the greatest personnal pleasure in our music listening experience. I really have enjoyed this thread, we all share, we don't fight or argue, or get our audiophile egos in the way of an ongoing friendly conversation.

Teajay,
'Tenacity' probably isn't the word that my wife or my friends would use, but thanks :-)
It has been an enjoyable thread and I think your conclusion/summary is well stated.