Reference DACS: An overall perspective
New guy posting here, lurking for awhile. I have a new Accuphase e380 integrated and love it. Thinking of getting the dac 60 card that goes with it. Thoughts, opinions please. Right now I have a ps audio digital link iii dac that is still going strong. What can I expect from a new modern dac?
not sure if this is the correct place to post this. TIA…
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@teajay great post! I am in the second category. I don’t care about perfect this perfect that. Super highend, amazing clarity, detailed, etc. etc. I don’t care how amazing their measurements are. I am after a system where it glues me to the chair and make me stop do critical listening. I just want to enjoy music regardless of their price, measurements, etc. I have heard and owned many systems (probably not as much as you do:)) I stopped when I heard Harbeth speakers (not crazy about their current line, I think Alan Shaw is going towards that “hifi” sound). I would love to have Magnapens again. I had to sell because of space issues. And another unit I was forced to let go, Pass Labs Aleph 3. I gave up on brands that don’t pull me into music. |
sunandmusic, I had owned the MSB Diamond DAC IV Plus and had the TotalDAC D1 Dual on loan. If you are after AN kind of sound, I would definately look into the TotalDAC. The MSB is much more resolving, but less saturated in the midrange. At the time I prefered the MSB for its overall transparency, but a fellow forum member from New Zeland that visited me at the time, much preferred the TotalDAC. Since then I have sold the MSB and moved over to Lampizator Big 7, and now Golden Gate. Their sound signature is similar to the TotalDAC, but to my ears thay are even more real and palpable sounding. |
Although I now sell the product, I have heard the Ps audio Directstream sound excellent from its release and then continually evolve as new operating systems are released which creates a new circuit design In the field programmable gate array they use. It's truly worth hearing. There is also a new OS in beta that users are finding astonishing. There is a DS junior out as well for lower cost that includes a network card. They both play DSD natively, which can sound more at ease than PCM. The improvement over the PWD mkii is lightyears in comparison and I like that the sound keeps improving as free upgrades are released. The best comparison is reel to feel- it’s extremely analog sounding and the built in volume control is extremely transparent, and will sound better than going though all but the very best preamps. |
In the shootout, I thought the 4.1 was really the sweetspot. It was considerably better than the 3.1, and only slightly less resolving and detailed than the 5 Special (at significantly lower price).Interesting indeed, thank you! So maybe my tweaked up DAC 4 is up there. I have swopped out the Audio Note copper caps for the much better Duelunds which are more transparent and faster yet no edge or digital sound to them. Having owned both MSB Dacs, The Analog and the Diamond. I can tell you from first hand experience. It is not something I would suggest unless of course your not into music but rather showing off your personal Ego. Sometimes price does not reflect the musicality. I learnt it the hard way Thank you dragon_vibe. I was looking at a used MSB Platinum but was wondering if it was all show and too digital / detail freak territory. I am also turned off that MSB have dropped this affordable DAC and go from the Analogue up to the Signature at 22K USD. So they are saying goodbye to the middle ground DAC buyers IMO. I also read many many MSB users who have sold an moved on with similar comments about not sounding real, over detailed and digital. Still interested to hear a TotalDAC. Audio Note need to get that discrete DAC out.... |
Sunandmusic, I got to participate in a blind shootout between a 3.1, 4.1 and a 5 Special. I have also heard the DAC-5 Signature in a friend's system. These are all very musical sounding devices. In the shootout, I thought the 4.1 was really the sweetspot. It was considerably better than the 3.1, and only slightly less resolving and detailed than the 5 Special (at significantly lower price). The shootout came about when a customer brought into the dealership a 4.1 he owned to compare with the 5 Special, and perhaps, to trade in the 4.1 to get the 5. Another customer, who happened to be in the store at that time, ran home to get his 3.1 for the shootout, because there was the possibility of trading it in for the 4.1 if the owner of the 4.1 traded up. As it turned out, both customers ended up executing the three-way trade. I have only heard a direct comparison between the DAC 5 Special and one other DAC. That other DAC is something made by an Italian builder of tube gear (phono, preamps, linestages, DACs, crossovers and field coil power supplies) named Aldo D'Urso. I thought Aldo's DAC, which is much cheaper than the DAC 5, sounded better in most, but not all respects. The Aldo DAC was actually better than the DAC 5 in midrange texture and sounded more harmonically dense (more saturated sound), but, the DAC 5 was a bit more open and airy on the top end. Overall, I would take the Aldo DAC, but, the comparison was pretty close. If you are at all interested in the DAC 5 or the Aldo DAC, you can contact Deja Vu Audio (dejavu-audio.com) and speak to the proprietor, Vu Hoang (he sells both). I admit that I have not tried to keep up with the latest developments in the DAC/digital front. If it is like any other component type, I would not expect there to have been much in the way of real improvements for some time now. The big changes have been more a matter of convenience. I DO like very much the convenience of making music selections from a server (Naim NDS). |
Waking up this (interesting) thread. Anyone heard the Discrete TotalDAC units? I have buddies who rave about these DACs sounding so smooth and natural and I have heard the TotalDAC Dual in another system and it was damb good, couldn't fault it. It had that wow factor of the over the top detail DACs but without any fatigue or boredom setting in. It just kept giving, no volume adjusting or track swopping, just play it loud and sit down. I have an Audio Note DAC 4.1 which I was thinking of selling on and looking for something 'better' but still in camp 2 i.e. warm and natural rather than detail freak. I do however like speed and dynamics so trying to grab the best of both types. Has anyone got / heard the Audio Note DAC 5 Special and how would it rank in the current crop of better DACs around? It is too long in the tooth now, maybe it is better consigned to history, and possibly always was overpriced. The 4.1 is still 'real world' prices (just). The new bred of discrete DACs seem the way to go for a natural sound with the pace and detail of the better DS DACs. Any opinions would be great guys. |
08-04-15: WisnonSorry about the late reply. I've had dramas with A'gon. Seems the only way they could maintain my 7 years of history was to reinstate my old member name. Big fail for A'gon... Anyway, I digress. True balanced configuration from source to speaker is a fundamental design principle of Vitus Signature series gear also. As I said, I think of these brands more as peers than anything else. With that said, not everyone has the room for mono blocks or the inclination to baby sit tubes. In my apartment situation, I only have room for a stereo power amp of not much greater size than an Aesthetix Atlas & need to drive my S5's which are are a moderately difficult load being 88db into a 4 ohm load with a 2.4 ohm dip & 72 degree phase angle @40 Hz. My next Vitus amp (SS-025) is a pure power amp doing 320W kl AB and 15W in kl A, and has 160,000 uF capacitance. Despite their power, the 211 balanced mono's can't match the Vitus's power and control, especially in one chassis. Joe is in Heaven every time he changes components, lol! Re: Up-converting files. I'm not a fan of it. I had a switchable up-sampling on my Ayon CD-5s and actually preferred it switched off. I agree there are many roads to Nirvana. Some people want to stuff around with tubes, up-sampling and controlling invisible media via a tablet, whilst others want to be able to leave their amp on most of the time, drive a 2 channel home theatre system & interact with their digital media, read the liner notes and own the actual cd, instead of just a file on a hard drive. Different horses for different courses. Cheers for your congrats. I have a big update coming around the start of the new year & will post my system thread then. |
08-04-15: AgearAgear, yes i'm from Melbourne, Australia in case any of the 'Sydney mafia' want to troll me. Bodhi is my member name on high end forums. If I recall, I only chose Melbguy1 because I originally joined the forum to sell some gear & my member name was a secondary thought. Just cleaning up isle 9.. |
08-04-15: Bodhi Melb as in Melbourne? I am still confused by the name change. Is this part of some rehab program? |
Bodhi, Very elegant and well appreciated response. I am sure the Vitus is bringing you immense pleasure and I love your enthusiasm. Adam has traded up to a fully internally balanced GG and is currently waiting on delivery, according to his post on another forum. The Lampi 211 amps are also balanced so the combo of the amps and the Dac with bal output PCM chip and dual mono DSD means that the digital is balance from source to speaker and add the differential summator to that and all digital noise is cancelled. The 211 amps are 85wpc with NO phase splitter so have SET SQ with push-pull type power. So far only Joe has this and he is in heaven, reportedly. he will move up from a B7 Bal to a GG Bal soon. I have not heard this combo yet. Regarding DSD, its not just the 6K or so albums out there, but the ability to use a powerful computer and upconvert PCM to high rate DSD with HQ Player, especially if this is to your liking (it is for many). We are just chatting though...not trying to convince you of anthing, as there are many roads to nirvana and you seem happily along the way. Kudos to you... Are you Aussie? |
There is no mystery, Melbguy1 was/is me! I changed my member name several weeks ago to Bodhi, but instead of updating my existing profile, Audiogon created a new profile. I understand the Web Developer is working on merging the two profiles, and by the sound of things it looks like that has been resolved. You have to love a conspiracy theory, lol!! |
08-23-14: Melbguy1 Yes indeed. Bodhi, are you the resurrected Melbguy1? |
08-03-15: AgearI am sure I would be blown away by what the Lampi can do in it's element. With Vitus, the synergy between their Sig Series amps & front end is remarkable. I heard the old SCD-010 paired with an SIA-025 integrated and a pair of Magico Q1's & was shocked by the incredibly pure, tube-like, analogue sound. That audition directly led me to sell off my old system & start building my current rig around my S5's. That's the great thing about high end audio, we're so spoiled for choice there really is no "best", only what's best for you and your particular tastes. |
08-02-15: AgearAgear, I will be posting my system thread soon as that will be a long session. But here is my equipment list fyi.. Front End: Vitus SCD-025, Oppo BPD-103AU Amplification: Vitus SIA-025 Speakers: Magico S5's Isolation: Taoc ASR series racks, Taoc SCB-RS50g, Stillpoints Ultra 6's + Bases/Mini's/LPI's AC Power: Furutech GTX-D(G), Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo, Jorma Prime pc's (re-terminated with cryo'd Oyaide M1/F1s), Jorma Unity pc (re-terminated with Oyaide P-004/C-004s) Cables: Jorma Prime xlr's, Jorma Statement sc's, Siltech Classic Anniversary rca's + HDMI Tweaks: Acoustic Revive RR-777 + KR Mk2/RD-3/RIO-5II/RCI-3H, Akiko Universal tuning sticks/E-tuning Gold MkII |
Wisnon, I was actually reflecting today that I should have been more generous in my praise of the Lampi dsd dacs as yes, I was aware Adam (Elberoth) who I respect owns a Big 7 Level 5. I could also be mistaken about the number of DSD titles out there. By all reports it is a very well built and great sounding dac. I feel I should just make a couple of important points here. Firstly the latest spec Vitus SCD-025 which I own is about 50% better than the previous spec player which Agear heard (which was already regarded by many as the best single box cd player in the world). It is true balanced, has very wide bandwidth, resolution & low noise, whilst sounding on the warm side and mellifluous. Vitus use very sophisticated (and expensive!) robotic machinery and manufacturing techniques which are second to none, including Boulder. They use their own all-discrete analogue modules drawn from the SL-102 preamp, an extremely accurate master clock and use zero negative feedback. During the development and testing phase of this player, the references used were the old spec SCD-025 and a Techdas AF1 with thales tonearm & Dynavector x1s cartridge connected to a Masterpiece Series phono stage. Not bad! Also keep in mind a system is more than a dac, no matter how good it sounds in and of itself. Just as how good or bad a recording sounds does not depend on the number of 'bits'. It is the sum of all its parts and the synergy they impart. I've built my system on that principle, with no weak links, and in fact plan on expanding my family of Vitus Signature Series components later this year which will take my rig to the next level. Another thing i've learnt is, you'll never convince a fan of tube dacs that a ss dac sounds as musical. I couldn't even convince a 'phile who owned a Chinese Vincent cd player that my Vitus dac might just sound better. The above comments are purely for balance. I can see both from looking at the exceptional build quality of the Lampi dacs & the GG's expensive parts bin that it is a serious dac. The balanced GG dac is $17kEUR, whilst the Vitus is $19kEUR, thus the pricing suggests these dacs are more peers than killer vs just very good. Finally, yes I would accept if you were playing purely DSD files, the Lampi would likely have the edge. Though amongst the hundreds of millions of digital recordings, including Indy recordings, only a tiny percentage are currently available on DSD. Though I accept if you avidly purchase from that small title list, you would end up with a considerable collection. And if you illegally rip SACD's via a PS3, you would likely expand that list further. But it's still a tiny percentage, and virtually unrepresented in Indy and world music. I'm taking note, but won't be rushing out any time soon to buy one. Just saying. |
Bodhi, quite simply the GG dac is a killer. Unfortunately, I "only" have the Big7 which also is a killer to my ears. Dunno about you, but I have tons of DSD (thank you PS3) and I also can upconvert on the fly to DSD via HQP. Lampi DSD is Chipless, so DSD is played back truly in its native state. When you hear it, you will understand why both Elberoth and AudioCrack of WB Forum both have a Lampi GG Dac (especially for DSD) in addition to their Trinity dacs. Trinity costs 3x as much and they both had the Trinity first. So, I cant knock your Dac, as I never heard it, but the GG is special... |
I have noted all your comments Agear, though again I don't believe formats usurp the mastering and recording process or for that matter the skill of the Designer of a dac. And one has to keep in mind the number of titles available on DSD is tiny in comparison to the available titles on RBCD. And you cannot touch or interact with the physical media. Just one question, when did you audition the SCD-025? There was a major update to this player in Q1, 2015 as I mentioned earlier incl: a new, upgradeable master clock, new I/V converter, new analogue modules etc and is basically a whole new beast. Hans Ole told me he was shocked by the level of improvement & said the player was "about 50% better" than the old version. You might want to check with your Dealer as the two players are not comparable ;). |
08-01-15: Bodhi Bodhi, while I agree that the recording dictates ultimate quality (I have Hoffman recordings that are both good and not so good), the reconstruction of the "data" radically alters the experience. DSD can be sublime when the data is not perverted (PCM down-conversion). The Lampizator is one of the few dacs that does not piss in the stream. I have a Golden Gate that handles up to DSD256, and its pretty spectacular. I heard your dac in a SOTA room and system that approached 300k. It was very good, but we both preferred the Brinkmann table. I know sonic memory is deceptive as is human nature (we promote what we own), but the Lampizator is better by a substantial margin.....you may want to reconsider...:) BTW, Bodhi, post your system. That would be helpful.... |
Wisnon, don't shoot the messenger. My understanding is that most dacs (including the SCD-025) down-convert the DSD signal to PCM, therefore logically there would be little advantage to handle DSD256 recordings which in any case have very few titles. To be honest, I think DSD is over-hyped. The secret to great sound is in the recording and mastering of the album and the skill of the Designer to create a musical sounding dac. Formats get thrown around like a panacea which they are not. Just ask Steve Hoffman or David Chesky. Anyway, I won't be rushing out to buy a Lampi dac. The SCD-025 is a killer dac & is here to stay! |
Just one minor correction to my earlier post as editing is disallowed in this thread. I confirmed with Hans Ole the DSD board in the SCD-025 does not handle quad DSD (DSD256), but DSD128. The difference (between DSD128 and DSD256) is apparently miniscule and not worth the money. Sorry about the confusion. You can find a full 2014 Vitus price list here in Euro dollars. The July 2015 price list hasn't been published as yet. Cheers. |
Jon, with the preamble there is no such thing as "best" as there is so much great sounding gear out there, in general Vitus gear sounds natural/organic, resolving and non-fatiguing. The first thing which strikes you is the timeless Danish industrial design and build quality which are second to none. The SCD-025 spinner is essentially a full Signature Series dac built around a heavily modified Philips Pro 2 LF transport. There was a major update to this player in Q1, 2015 incl: a new, upgradeable master clock, new I/V converter, new analogue modules etc and is basically a whole new beast. The upgrades were so successful Hans upgraded the Masterpiece Series transport and dac with the same filter UP components! Sound wise, my player only has about 35hrs on it so far, but is already sound very resolving and musical. I am amazed how much information this player can pull off an RBCD. No kidding, it makes RBCD's sound like SACD's! Dynamics and bass are excellent, no doubt helped by the 4 UI-core power supplies. The sound is very smooth and liquid. It has a real finesse with strings and percussion. I have owned a couple of good dacs before; a Vimak DS-1800 Mk2 and heavily modded/re-tubed Ayon CD-5s. The Vimak for its day was remarkably resolving and very composed (and thus similar in that way to the Vitus), though its quirkiness in operation was annoying. In comparison, the SCD-025 is simply better across the board & handles files up to Quad rate DSD via its DSD USB board. The Ayon was a very nice tube dac with matched NOS 6h30DR's & discreet HD op amps. Bass was excellent and about on par with my Vitus. There were also tube virtues of holography, sweetness and a touch of warmth. The Ayon uses excellent Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps which improve sound stage depth as well as chokes & big polypropylene filtering caps (similar to Conrad Johnson). The Ayon in this modified form was also a very nice linestage which paired very well with my Boulder 1060. But you pays, you gets as they say. And the Vitus is simply in a different league. It is like comparing a Volkswagen Passat to a BMW 5 series. I know you asked how the Vitus sounds compared to dacs in the same league, though i'm reluctant to compare dacs which I haven't owned and used in my system. With that said, i've heard the Soulution 540 sacd player which sounds very smooth and resolving. That is a nice sacd player, though it did not sound as good as the (then previous spec) SCD-025 on RBCD. (The current spec player is about 50% better). I'd love to hear the 2-chassis Soulution 746 or 760 dac. Though we're getting into Rolls Royce territory. The Vitus so far is the best single box dac i've heard, though the new Soulution 541 player could be a compelling alternative if you listen to a lot of sacd's. Btw you have a nice system which is well sorted with excellent attention to detail. Good show! |
I just had John Tucker at Exemplar Audio upgrade my Oppo 105 (now a T105). He strips the entire analogue section and replaces it and adds an outboard power supply. The T105 becomes my swiss army knife of audio equipment. The sound is very "musical. The sound stage is deep, wide, airy, has nice detail, lots of space around instruments but is "gorgeously musical." Everything is tied together nicely. The DAC in the unit is amazing, it tromps the PS Audio PWD MKII I previously owned. I would not be afraid at all to compare it to a Meitner class or higher quality DAC. Like most of you I have owned some very nice equipment and this simple setup (T105 to Exemplar Exception integrated) is stunning good. I own Von Schweikert vr-35's speakers and Silent Source speaker cables and interconnects. Since the DAC is built into the T105 I was able remove a separate unit and digital cable and run direct. My previous systems included separate high end everything and my current set up is the best sounding and most "musical" sounding system I have owned. |
Don't waste your time or money. I am listening to an Esoteric D-02/P-02 combo now and wouldn't hesitate in a second to move to an Ypsilon DAC, and it really doesn't matter which transport...Though the matching Ypsilon would surely be a great match. The Ypsilon is a non upsampling DAC, so 44.1 in and 44.1 out. If you are truly looking for an outstandingly Musical piece, give it a listen, you will not regret it! Much is lost in the complexity of upsampling and processing. Don't get me wrong, the Esoteric pair is a good digital playback source, but it lacks the feel of the performance. A good CD through the Ypsilon with a good transport, I used the P-02, was simply revelationary. |
fascinating read - to get such a long perspective on digital evolution. i bought my first "great" cd player in... 1990? it was a denon 1290 (and not my first CD player). honestly, i got hands down better sound than i got from available (halfway affordable) turntables at the time, and i switched to buying CDs. i still own my vinyls though (but have digitized most of them, turntable is in storage). in 1999 or so, i went upscale and got an Accuphase DP-65v. ah. *much* better. nirvana for so many years. even as i switched to listening to computer-stored FLACs i used the Accuphase for many years as a DAC, never having it play a CD again for years. but it was big and unwieldly. so i finally in late 2013 replaced it with Benchmark DAC2-HGC. an *awesome* piece of gear. here is my philosophy: i want my source to be as brutally accurate as possible. the sharper the better. that way i can use the backend of the chain (amp and speaker) to tailor the sound to shifting preferences if needed. the DAC2 is awesome. i am currently listening to Maalouf's awesomely recorded "wind" and there is *no* harshness there, just transparent musicality dripping out of the system. i LOVE digital done right. |
Check out the AMR DP 777, I've been blissfully happy with mine going on 4 years now :) before that I had the Octave Metrum with the Sonicweld Diverter 2 before that the MSB Power Dac and the Meitner Super Bidat and the Dynavox Dynastation 2. I've had the Ayon CD5 S in home for an extended period of time. I will honestly tell you that my AMR bests all of them and not by small amount. If the software is good it amazes close it can get to my analog rig. Listening to it as I type this :) Whatever you get I hope you enjoy it. |
Hi Guidocorona, Because transport is mechanical in nature, I'd prefer to buy new. I am typically a non tweak person, so I'd prefer a system that I can hook up and just put the disc on the spindle and press play and beautiful music emanates into the room. I'm prepared to spend below 40K in a Transport/DAC. My system is 3 Brystons Amps 14B, Brystons Pre BP26 and PMC XB2/MBD's speakers. I'm also looking at a playback system that is well built with little need for repairs and service, an example of it was the Accuphase 80/81L, which I sold (big mistake?) and replaced it with Audiomeca's Transport/DAC that I had problems with in terms of quality, and now carrys no support whatsoever.. |
