Audio Research I-50
To a lessor extent by a lot, but significantly better than most solid state Pass INT-x
I would also look at Conrad Johnson and VAC.
Also, no, no, and. no.
recommend PRAT Integrated amplifiers (not Naim)
what are some modern integrated amps in the 5-10k range that offer a heavy dose of PRAT
not seeking anything Naim
for some frame of reference, was recently recommended Rega Aethos and Hegel H590...neither had the PRAT of my NAD C298 power amp (which is not an ntegrated and had some harshness to it)
please and thanks
Is the Yamaha A-S3200 or Bryston B135 known for PRAT? Simaudio maybe?
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There are many good recommendations from other members. If you are looking for PRAT as well as liquidity, clarity, staging/imaging, and a light touch of “tube-like” warmth I recommend a per-owned Burmester 082. There is one on AG just under $10k. There is also the model up (032) for just under $13k. I had big Krell separates and the 032 integrated offered significant improvement in all areas of SQ including PRAT even though it puts out less than half the power. IMHO add it to your short list. Good luck |
I too recommend the A40. This amp is an incredible bargain—lively, muscular sounding, big soundstage, and plenty of “weight” to the sound. The built in DaC is very good too. If you are looking to spend more for more power and a touch more authority, the A40’s big brother, the A100 Titan is killer good too. |
PRAT is pace, rhythm and timing. For me, I can’t just A/B a song and hear it. I have to listen for a while to one setup and then switch. I relate it to turntables because that is what I have the most experience hearing. I could hear some turntables and the music just flows and captures and holds me. Others, the music was just there- no big deal. But the sound could be virtually the same. That was the big thing that put me on a quest for a new DAC and ultimately music server. I would listen to records for a few days, switch to digital and the sound was great but I could tell that the rhythm and pace wasn’t nearly as good. It’s like the difference between a good and great pianist to me. The great ones make the music flow like water from the piano. |
some good suggestion thanks seeking solid state some of these listed though suggests lack of experience with this Luxman is definetley not considered a PRAT type sound and I've owned or listened to most of their gear made in the past ten years Rega OSRIS or anything Rega is a fail in this regard too |
PRAT (Rhythm, Pace and Timing) or Rhythm and Pace, refer to the musical engaging aspect of reproduced music. Most easily identified by how much a system makes you want to tap your foot or move with the music… well done PRAT is physically and musically engaging, as opposed to analytical sound that is sterile and perhaps intellectually interesting. Many high end systems lack PRAT. Often, but not always tube systems tend to offen better PRAT.
This may be one of the most important, but also difficult aspects of sound reproduction to perceive. It probably took me thirty years to develop a sense of it. Now, it is about the first thing I sense. Lots of folks never develop a sense for it because they go out on a quest to hear more details and get better slam and then improve imaging and Transparency and end up wondering why their system is not engaging. Along the way they lost the PRAT. PRAT stands for Pace, Rhythm, and Timing in the context of audio. It is a term used to describe the dynamic qualities of music playback and how well a system reproduces the temporal aspects of the audio signal.
When audiophiles or audio enthusiasts discuss PRAT, they are typically evaluating how well an audio system can handle these elements, providing a more engaging and lifelike listening experience. |
@jmarini2 It's term given to qualities that golden ears think they can discern. Much like sightings of Bigfoot. It's meaningless. |
PRAT is a real thing. It’s just a subjective real thing. If you care about it and it helps then fine. If not fine as well. It’s the old different strokes story. Whether one cares or not will likely lead one down radically different paths. FBOFW. Part of the fun is to just try things because you want to, not necessarily because there is any robust science applied in the decision making process. It’s a hobby and hobbies are fun. To each their own. I’ll reiterate my Deja Vu Audio recommendation. They should be called house of PRAT because that is what makes them unique as a result of their strong retro focus and very good at getting toes tapping in a traditional manner effectively at various price points. I’ve heard their wares and I am a fan.
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I think any of the GaN equipped integrateds (not many) or amplifiers from Atma-Sphere, AGD, GATO (integrated also) Gold Note will fit this bill. Some of the NAD integrated may but I am suspect of their build quality. @secretguy Audio is subjective and these are the facts on this day the 21st of February 2024. |
I don’t think generally there is denial of what people hear. Just ignore those individuals if so but don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. More that everyone hears and thinks differently and personal opinions alone may have value but are not a substitute for hard data. Nor is hard data alone enough for everyone to make a well informed decision. That’s the reality of it. |
I would definitely not rule out good modern Class D amps in general. Atmasphere is a good example. I heard those then the Atmasphere tube amps immediately after and they were way more similar than different. I’d choose the Class Ds but others will always want tubes I am a big Class D fan especially in recent years and find it very hard to justify buying anything else. PRAT is not an issue there for me. I think the term originated in the last century in regards to turntables. It’s a totally different day and age these days. Digital rules. Where’s the PRAT? Must it be artificially supplied somehow? |
Hi mapman, up until a few months ago I would pretty much agree with you. But if I listened to vinyl for a few days and then went back to digital I would hear a difference in PRAT. It was clear that vinyl was much better. About a month after I got my new DAC I decided to spin some CDs one evening on my CD transport rather than listen through the music server. I was spellbound all evening. The music was amazing. I played 5 CDs straight through not skipping a single track. I couldn’t understand why it was so different from my NUC based music server running Roon/Rock. The next day I did some A/B between the music server and transport. I had my son listen too. The CDs and the FLAC files sounded very close to the same. Now I was confused. So I listened to several songs on CD and then switched to the music server and now I could hear the difference in PRAT. That lead me to try a better music server. Got one in on a 30 day trial. It not only sounds way better streaming but now has PRAT like my vinyl rig, like the CD transport. I had no idea what PRAT was 30 years ago until another audiophile buddy came over to hear my rig one time. He told me that my turntable had terrible PRAT. He was a big Linn Turntable fan. I started to understand why some turntables that I heard just seemed to let the music flow where others just made sound. I made some mods to my turntable and back then and got some surprising improvement. It has been hit and miss over the years but very happy with my current turntable with respect to PRAT and other things. |
I specifically asked AI the question and in addition to Naim (#1), Rega and Musical Fidelity both came up near the top as amps that users commonly associate with PRAT. So that. It also pointed out that PRAT is a subjective thing. Smarty pants! If pRAT is where it’s at then Naim is the bomb apparently. So why rule that one out?Also, who are we to argue when a computer objectively settles the score regarding subjective decision making? Then again, PRAT sounds like a very British kind of thing. So any surprise traditionally British companies do particularly well there? Way to go AI! |
PRAT is heavily influenced by speakers, dacs, the recording themselves, etc. Perceptively, I'm not sure how anyone's able to boil it down to an amp in a listening test. On the same note, the Yamaha A-S3200 is a great amp, going back 15 yeas now along with its predecessor 3100. The minute you pop the hood and look at it, the relative inferiority of most other amps in price class will become apparent. |
A quote about PRAT from member secretguy @jmarini2 It's term given to qualities that golden ears think they can discern. Much like sightings of Bigfoot. It's meaningless. Sorry I have immensely disagree, how many here actually play an instrument, I play drums and have played in bands and recorded a cd all analogue, have played with people who have been on gold lps and a platinum lp even did a full gig with a nine time grammy nominee who turned to me and said "you guys can really play" PRAT is the essence of music as My favorite lead singer Steven Tyler says "its 2s and 4s man 2s and 4s" and he nails them like nobodys business, anyway the audio world is full of words to describe systems, soundstage, air, etched, black background etc.......the list is endless....here is the problem, real musicians have no idea what you are talking about. A truly musical system needs no words, when it is musical you nod your head tap your feet, sing along etc, just like when you hear real music played well.
In my opinion the more audiophile words that are used to describe something the truly less musical it is, I have heard a fair amount of gear in my home, and some do a great job of presenting the audiophile qualities but they turn the 2s and 4s into 2s and 2s.....not musical |
100% @superhonestben. With music I know, I immediately hear the lack of PRaT. I used to play the violin and listen to a good amount of live music. The presence of PRaT allows what's going on in the music to make sense to me. I hear this in live music provided that the performers are skilled enough to convey the meaning of the music through interaction of different voices, instruments and parts of the music. To me, the lack of PRaT causes these relationships between different voices, instruments and parts of the music to be difficult to understand. And yes, @tonywinga, I also hear clearly that some turntables have PRaT, namely Linn, Rega and typically lighter weight designs and some turntables typically don't, namely high mass designs. Though I have to admit that the TechDAS Air Force One that I heard had both the solidity of sound that high mass turntables provide together with PRaT. Very impressive, but I don't think I could ever justify spending $150k for a turntable.😁 |
Naim amplification does have PRaT, but I’ve now heard other brands that offer sufficient PRaT but with more tonal color and richness than what I’ve heard from Naim amps. Pass amps stand out to me in this respect. @ghdprentice I’ll have to check out Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and VAC as I haven’t listened to amplifiers from those brands since the 90s. Another lesser known brand that comes to mind for me is YBA, I listened to a YBA Integre DT integrated back in the 90s and the golden hued warmth of its sound (along with good PRaT) has stuck in my mind to this day. Unfortunately this French brand doesn’t have great distribution in the US. Exposure from England might be another brand to check out. I find that small British integrateds often offer good PRaT, while big, powerful and complicated Class A/B American amplifiers don't seem to convey PRaT more frequently than not in my experience. I've heard that explained as the big power supplies that power these big amps can't turn on a dime. |
“PRAT” simply has too many variables to narrow it down to this or that integrated, or amp. Also, I completely disagree that the top end Simaudio gear lacks “PRAT” I’m talking about the 600iv2, 700iv2 and the new North collection. All are absolutely wonderful sounding amps. BUT, it depends on what you put into them as sources as well as cables, speakers and power. It’s the synergy of the whole that gets you there, not simply one piece of gear or cables. |
