Reasonable high end interconnects: without breaking the bank
I and others I know have done this blind testing and notice a difference in terms of more a continuous and coherent soundstage with a blanket on a 55” screen. In some rooms there seems to be slightly better top to bottom coherence across frequencies as well. For critical listening, I prefer to have a blanket up, and prefer double layer fleece blanket to wool. Have not tried a packing blanket yet. YMMV. kn |
The effect was first demonstrated to me in a control room decades ago. When mixing, packing blanket were hung in front of the glass. Large screen TVs are reflectors and resonators, albeit becoming less so with ever more integrated electronics and increased power efficiency. For those with undamped large flat rigid surfaces between the mains, enlist the help of a couple of pals to lift a packing blanket while listening blindfolded in a darkened room. If you can hear the difference, there is work to do. |
"Anyone with an uncovered TV or equipment stack between their HiFi mains please 'fess up. And go away." I have been reading this same idea for many years, and my own experience doesn't support it. It does sound like it would make sense, but I have tried it in my system both ways, and not heard a difference. There is no discontinuity in the staging, and centered voices sound very focused. I don't know much of anything about acoustics, but it seems to me that it shouldn't make much of a difference because the projected output from each of the speakers is aimed at the listener and sums at the listener's ears; so at least with some types of speakers, what is between them shouldn't have much effect. I listen to horn speakers and they have a more controlled directivity, but I have experienced the same with direct radiating cone speakers. I can't comment on having a TV on the wall between speakers because I don't have a TV in the listening room. I wonder how many people who feel this way about racks between speakers have actually tried it. I will admit that it could have a psychological effect, looking at all of the gear between the speakers. |
It is possible the $12K cables were just not as good as the $6K cables. It is also possible that the $12K cables exposed deeper issues with the Mac and B&W gear, or the original recording, or that the more expensive cables were just a poor match for that particular gear or weren’t broken in yet. In any case, your story just reinforces that cables sound different, and that it is important to try different cables in your system to get the right match for you and the kind of music that you prefer listening to. PS - Full disclosure, I often cover my TV monitor when listening, but not always. |
@millercarbon My speaker cables could have cost 1/8th my speakers. My point was that I am not averse to expensive product per se, if it is better. Other than owning a HiFi, what are most posters creds? Take a scan through some of the virtual systems here. https://systems.audiogon.com/ No doubt, some are stunning, but then so is a taser. Some are so badly set up and in appallingly bad environments as to be hopeless. Anyone with an uncovered TV or equipment stack between their HiFi mains please 'fess up. And go away. I ignored the topic "List your System Ingredients: Listed most to least expensive, by list price or price paid" because cost is irrelevant. It is possible to purchase the very best [read most expensive] into an unlistenable system. |
ieales Some may prefer the $12k, but they didn’t record it and thus haven’t a clue of how it should sound. I did and it sucked!ieales (yes, same one) As point of reference, my speaker cables cost about 8x my speakers.Making a total shambles of whatever shred of logic there may have been in the first bit of advice. What I would take from this is that advice quality is inversely proportional to bragging about professional experience. |
@mcmanus they just hear something that you do notYou have it backwards. Having been a Grammy nominated professional recording engineer, consultant to Monster Cable, Ibanez, principal engineer for several electronic firms, Chief of Analogue Design for AMS-Neve, I, and those who hired me, think my hearing is just fine. Sadly, not what it once was. Over 5 decades, I have evaluated cables and if they differ electrically, they probably differ sonically. Whether they are a +/- depends on the gear they interface. Unless one sits in the recording studio, swapping out cables, mics, preamps, compressors and EQ to get what's in the booth on tape and/or records live acoustic music and/or regularly attends live acoustic performances, then one has no frame of reference, just an opinion based on preference. I recently auditioned some $12k vs $6k interconnect cables [same manuf] in a well setup dealer BW 800 D3 system. All McIntosh electronics. A really superb system. Swapping the $6k cable for the $12k totally destroyed the excellent presentation. Vocals became boxy, the image split, the hi-hat sand-papery and the harmonics would rip your ears off. Some may prefer the $12k, but they didn't record it and thus haven't a clue of how it should sound. I did and it sucked! What I would take from the demo is that performance is inversely proportional to $. Cables are an interface between two devices and dynamically interact with those devices and cannot be evaluated other than in situ. Ultimately their effects are transduced by the loudspeaker. If cable colorations compliment the speaker flaws, great. If they don't, no amount of DoReMi will change that. As point of reference, my speaker cables cost about 8x my speakers. I bought them because they are well designed and based on solid engineering principles. They got me closer than anything else I tried. |
IEALES "There is very close to ZERO relationship between cost and performance. Cables must match the system, room and user preferences - assuming the user is has some credibility and skill." To clarify, I believe that you saying to your ears, there is no significant relationship between cost and performance in cables. I don't think you mean that everyone on this post, except those with the cheapest cables, is not competent to evaluate their system properly but that you are. The people that hear a difference don't necessarily lack credibility and skill they just hear something that you do not. |
I’ve been using grannyring’s balanced ICs and am happy with them. They offer a nice balance between detail and warmth. You could give these a try, they’re reasonably priced so risk is low. I recently purchased a pair of his Schroeder method ICs but haven’t been able to try them yet because my system is torn down due to some construction. |
A little surprised to see no Grover Huffman recommendations here. Reasonably priced. The IC’s are very low impedance. I’m using a pair of Empress IC’s for phono to preamp and am very pleased. (Van den Hul Black Beauty SPX on ET II arm with VPI HW19 MK IV table to an original CAT SL-1 preamp.). Grover takes the risk out by offering a 60 day period to return for any reason. |
I’d recommend Zu Audio’s new stuff.. Actually their Event mk2 interconnects.. They sound great to me.. Supports all the detail your system can handle.. Very easy to handle.. They have a no questions ask return policy but I bet you’ll keep them.. Not a fan of silver plated copper wire so no Mission line |
Excellent bang for the buck and has equaled or bettered many of my interconnects that list for $600-$1800. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9g055-toto-tungsten-rca-interconnects-by-bogdan-audio-promotion... I am not associated with the builder of this RCA or Balanced interconnect, just a happy customer. |
@cleeds There is value in better cables that are well mated to a system. McManus gave no inkling as to manner of improvement, but just that he had scored savings purchasing used. Did he audition anything or just grab a deal? What specific problem was he trying to solve? You and I may disagree completely with his choices. There is very close to ZERO relationship between cost and performance. Cables must match the system, room and user preferences - assuming the user is has some credibility and skill. |
ieales The perception as an improvement is confirmation bias.That’s a common knee-jerk reaction from someone who fancies himself a thoughtful cynic. But the explanation clearly doesn’t apply in this instance, where the listener had been convinced that - logically - there was no value in better cables: the Mogami argument is perfect logic and caused me to outfit with them when I could have afforded better cables. Taking that and other “logical” approachs kept me in mid-fi for longer than I wished. |
Someone finally got me to try better cables and my sound quality jumped. It jumped again when I spent $500 on used $1,200 cables and jumped again at $900 for used $2,200 cablesActually, "Someone finally got me to try different cables and my sound quality changed. It changed again when I spent $500 on used $1,200 cables and changed again at $900 for used $2,200 cables." The perception as an improvement is confirmation bias. |
Fstein - the Mogami argument is perfect logic and caused me to outfit with them when I could have afforded better cables. Taking that and other “logical” approachs kept me in mid-fi for longer than I wished. Someone finally got me to try better cables and my sound quality jumped. It jumped again when I spent $500 on used $1,200 cables and jumped again at $900 for used $2,200 cables. Why other cables sound better, I don’t know ... and don’t really care any more. I’m just glad they do because I love it when my sound quality increases, its the thrill of this hobby. In so many ways it’s not a logical hobby. But I love it just the same. There are certainly exceptions but when you spend more you can get worthwhile improvements in every area of hifi. I wished I’d learned that much earlier instead of thinking that I was being clever by not trying the more expensive stuff. Just my experience. |
I believe price has to be considered in terms of value received for money spent. In that context, I recommend the Venom series of Shunyata’s cables and cords. While not inexpensive, they aren’t “bank breakers”, either. I have yet to be less than pleased when adding one (or two) to my audio system, regardless of application. |
I recommend trying Triode Wire Labs interconnects. I've used them and compare them favorably with the ones I moved up to, the Audience Au24SX. https://www.triodewirelabs.com/ |
I go with a couple of users who mention Morrow. The most obvious difference from any other cable in that range that I can attest to is an amazing sound stage with excellent inner detail. I also need to stay away from extra "brightness" as my system provides enough of that and the morrow cables have that "extra dimension" in the tereble range with things such as cymbals. The "sweet spot" in their line are the MA-4 series. The improvements are not quite as great above that, although the MA-6 speaker cables I use are amazing. At regular prices I would think twice, but they almost always have a 40- 50% off sale. Analysis Plus Ones (yeah, the purple cables) are also very good and a relative bargain. |
With my latest interconnect upgrade I have come to enjoy the price point and quality of sound in both the KLEI™Absolute Harmony Plugs and shielded Duelund DCA20GA interconnects from my turntable (yes I’m a crate digger) to the tube phono preamp with the KLEI™Absolute Harmony Plugs unshielded Duelund DCA20GA interconnects to the receiver. The pleasant surprise of a very low noise floor of noise rejection by this combination of plugs/connectors and the Duelund DCA20GA interconnect wire was an added bonus. I liked Duelund wire so much that I tried the Duelund DCA12GA wire for speaker wire and was equally impressed. But that’s another thread. They interconnects were custom made by Chris Webber of parts connexion at affordable pricing and wonderful craftsmanship. Chris is also on ebay. While I’m here I’d like to thank grannyring (GR). GR, I would have never heard or found out about Duelund if not for you here on agon. Thanks for taking the time to inform us all. |
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..I run Cerious Technologies XLRs and like them immensely.. http://www.cerioustechnologies.com/#products |
I 4th the recommedation of thecableco/usedcable.com. Their lending library allows you to "rent" cables for audition. As far as silver vs copper... don't buy anything silver clad. IME is causes grunge in the upper frequencies. I have never heard solid silver cables, but have been told by several high end audiophiles that they are a completely different animal. Also keep in mind that cable design and materials can affect sound... even within the same brand... by affecting the phase/timing of the signal. This is true from the source to the speakers. Sometimes it might even require changing speaker placement slightly. I can cheat in this respect because I am using a 7 channel HT pre, (my apologies to the purists), and can lie to it about speaker distances. My first serious foray into audio was in the late 90's with a high end mid-fi Onkyo HTR... and I used the cables in the box... and lamp cord for speakers. Later I upgraded to Blue Jeans Cables for ic's... and Monster for speakers. However... when I went to separates... I noticed that the Blue Jeans ic's created a dry notch in the upper mids/lower highs, and a bloom in the lower mids and bass. Since then I have moved on to the lower end of Analysis Plus ic's... and speaker cables... and I am satisfied. Neutral, detailed, and open. While the Onkyo is retired... I still consider my system, (higher end), mid -fi... because most of the components are older model used pieces such as B&k, Adcom, Technics... with newer Anthem and Oppo in the mix. Power cables have also gone from what was in the box... To a combination of the old Tributaries silver series, (series 9, not actually silver plated), PS audio, Wireworld, and Audioquest. To the OP. Audio nirvana is a journey. Trust your ears when it comes to YOUR system... and give your ears some time to adjust to any cable swaps you make. What you hear initially may sound good or bad... but over time you may notice differences that weren't evident in the beginning. And again... don't forget the possibility of phase/timing issues, and speaker placement adjustment. Happy listening !!! |
I will add my vote for signalcable.com. Very reasonable, made to spec, in-home trials. Impossible to go wrong. I added his top end power cable to my B&W 800ASW and the improvement was instantaneous and dramatic. And as to the other question, yes, silver matters, at least to my ears. Linn blacks are a fine budget IC, but Linn silvers sound ethereal. |
I can also recommend Audio Sensibilty. I have two of his top power cords the Signature and they are really good with a full and smooth sound across the whole frequency spectrum. I read a revue of his top speaker cable and it is supposed to be just killer. I would bet that his interconnects are awfully good too. Stephen the owner is also a super nice guy to deal with and he offers 30 day free trial period! Teo audio also has excellent interconnects and I would say even their least expensive model can compete with those from other manufacturers that are much more costly. I actually use Teo Double Double Ultra which is a fantastic high end cable using the Schroeder Method, there is the thread here in the cable forum covering it, that is a wonderful cable that I probably wouldn't replace for a long time. Taras and Ken at Teo are very nice and knowledgable guys....I believe they still offer 30 day trial period too. |
For ultimate flexibility in choices (i.e., custom-made), try Douglasconnection.com . Doug has various grades of raw cable to choose from, including Canare, Mogami, Furez, Furutech. Same with connectors, including ETI, Vampire Wire, Furutech, etc. Of course you can choose your own custom length. There is detailed information about each product on his website, so you really know what you're getting. I went the DIY route with his products, to save a few dollars, and because I like to tinker. You can give Doug your budget and your specs, and he will come back with various options/combinations for you to select from. I've done RCA and XLR interconnects from him, as well as power cables. He also has digital coax and speaker cables. Doug is a great guy to work with, and you really can't go wrong with any of his product offerings. |
There are a lot of great suggestions here. The Cable Co. Library is a good resource as well. One suggestion I will make that I have not seen mentioned is THALES. Designed by Swiss watchmakers who meticulously craft the this cable to be the ultimate connector. Although they are probably more expensive than you originally expected to spend, these cables will out perform cables that cost 3 to 4x their MRSP price. These cables essentially disappear into the sound system. They accurately reveal a rich, musical, transparent, enormously detailed sound stage that is all together silent. They could very well be the last Cables you ever invest in. http://www.tonarm.ch/en/products/accessoires https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649309042-thales-precision-interconnect-cables-rca-to-rca-15-meter/ If name dropping helps - IMHO preferred them over these companies in descending order - $$$$ Stage 3 Concepts $$$$ Transparent $$$ Analysis Plus $$$$ Synergistic Research $$$$ Nordost $$$ Kimber $$$$ MIT $$ Audioquest Good Luck
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I demoed a number of cables from The Cable Company Library. I would strongly suggest doing this. I ended up with the Cardas Clear Reflection but tried out 5 other cables ranging in price from about $1000 to $3000. I was surprised at the result because the Cardas wasn't even a consideration initially but was suggested by the sales rep I was talking to. In the end there are differences and you probably have some preferences to what is important to you in listening. For me the Cardas was the best mix of everything I liked but cables are system dependent so there is obviously not one good answer. Also, I would definitely suggest going XLR if you have that option with your equipment. As to $15 cables vs. $1500 cables, it depends on you and your system. Some systems can resolve better then others. Some people can tell the difference between a Steinway and a Burgdorfer piano on a recording, some can't or don't care. What I have found in a good high end system set up correctly is a difference in the things that are more nuanced than just bass, loudness and clarity, things like sound stage, timbre, tonal balance-for me the $15 cables just don't do it. In the end, what I enjoy is that on a good recording, my listening room really does disappear and becomes a different sonic space and vocals and instruments are palpable. |
When I got back into this hobby about two years ago I started with the highest end Monoprice coaxials as my interconnects and SPDIFS. They are dirt cheap and did the initial job ok. I think for budget minded folks, I can say that Zu Audio on eBay is a good choice. I have picked up some of them and have been please. Same with Surf Cables. I have also obtained other cables in the used audiophile markets, particularly Cardas and Shunyata. I think as a reliable baseline and source of cables Zu Audio is a good choice. The only thing is you will have to follow and win a bunch of auctions to get your stock together. |
