Question about Bi-Wiring

Go straight to bi-wiring.
And it doesn’t need to be cables that are more expensive than the speakers.
But the ends that attach to the speaker and amp, are usually a good place for quality to ensure a nice connection.

And if you looked inside most speakers, they are not “rocking it” with multi k$ cables from the XO to the drivers, or from the binding posts to the XO… so don;t expect miracles.

So staying with the single cable is not a bad thing either.

Two speaker runs of lessor cables don't sound as good as a single run of a better pair of cables. 

Thanks for the tips, makes sense. 

That's what I figured

i have never heard the benefits of biwiring versus a single run of good speaker cable, well terminated and connected

i have been at this since 1980, through probably 70-80 pairs of speakers of all shapes sizes makes

This is very funny. How would someone, anyone, would get advice from a Sherlock Holmes with lamp cord as speaker cables in the profile picture? 😂😂😂🤦‍♂️

@thyname

Good observation. Lamp cord… seriously… I got out of college 50 years ago.

Very true… good quality speaker cable first, and then biwiring. I used a set of Cardas Gold Reference for many years. The primary driver of the sound was the high quality… secondarily the bi-wiring… but to my surprise, bi-wiring was better. Always sounded silly… but it was a bit better.

I have my ProAc’s wired up in a diagonal connection. Honestly don’t think it made much of a difference from a single run with the OEM metal jumpers.

Thanks for all the input.

I have a bit of a dumb question.

Now, I there are some speaker cables made specifically for Bi-Wire, like from AudioQuest.

But other then that, would I need to 2 pairs of speaker cables for each terminal? For example, 1 banana plug and maybe 1 spade to each speaker terminal?

I do know that from the positive output of the amp, it would go to both of the positive terminals on the speaker but if the speaker cables are not made specifically for that purpose (as majority are not), I am assuming I need to use 2 pairs per terminal.

Thnx

It depends on the amp. If your amp has dual taps (like mine), or if you are bi-amping, then to speaker cable runs. If not, there bi-wire speaker cables already made and available from most cable manufacturers that have two leads on the amp side, and four on the speaker side

Analysis Plus and Acoustic Zen have a variety of biwire - shotgun and straight up.

I've tried the stock Tannoy jumper wires, AP Oval 8 and NBS and can't say I hear much difference. The Tannoy are still breaking in, so time will tell....I'm definitely going to listen a biwire once they have, though. I have my eye out for some AZ double barrel or Hologram. Listening is the best way to tell, but there's plenty of recommendation for biwiring out there if it's possible. So...try it out and let us know what you find!

Made my own jumpers out of neotech stranded 12 teflon...aeco banana's...dont miss old ones fo sho.

If you already have high quality wire on hand is there a negative to bi-wiring?

I think the thing is that great pair of single runs to lower connectors give you a much fuller resolved low-mid info...in my experience.Only negative bi-wire is if doesnt sound good.All about trying.

If you already have high quality wire on hand is there a negative to bi-wiring?

If you already have wire, give it a try.

The cables that I have right now are AudioQuest Type 4.

I have been thinking about getting better cables anyway.

Right now I have the cables connected to the top terminals on the Logan’s but after reading @digsmithd comment, now I am wondering if that makes a difference also (when using just a single pair of cables). I guess I will have to try the lower terminals for now also and see if I hear a difference.

I am looking at some different cables and came across Cardas Parsec. They seem to be good cables and fall within the budget I think.

What do you all think of those, any experience?

I know in general, Cardas seems to make good cables.

If I go with those and like the upgrade, then I might eventually go full Cardas for everything.

@jay73 - ditch those little plates that couple the terminals and replace them with real copper wire.

• Make each jumper 20" long
• make each jumper from 2 strands of solid UP-OCC copper wire
• 16 gauge or 14 gauge will suffice
• use some sort of copper terminal i.e. spade or banana

You could even try Romex - it should work better than those plates

You should hear a noticeable improvement and it should not matter which terminals you connect the cables to.

Those little jumpers are very often made form brass or a copper alloy and they degrade the signal

Hope that helps - Steve

This is very funny. How would someone, anyone, would get advice from a Sherlock Holmes with lamp cord as speaker cables in the profile picture? 😂😂😂🤦‍♂️

Have you A/B’ed you cables against lamp cord? @thyname 
(You should also have noticed that the red and black are on tyhe wring terminals as well.)

The good news is that the new cables are in mail.
Or at least the company emailed to say that all parts of the order from ~5 months ago arrived, and I needed to call inm with new CC #.

The lamp cord did its job for months, and it did not sound bad.

The cables that I have right now are AudioQuest Type 4.

I have been thinking about getting better cables anyway.

In theory one could hook both of your AQ cables up to one speaker as a bi-wire, and lamp cord bi-wire to the other speaker.

Then shift the balance all the way to the AQ side and listen in mono as to whether a difference can be noted between bi wire or single. (Or a loaner side of the Cardas.)

The main reason for the lamp cord would be to ensure that the amp channel is not unloaded.

I suppose that you could also play stereo with the balance knob, and the thing should sound bad if the lamp cord is not working well.

@williewonka 

So, you literally mean copper wire terminated to spade or banana plugs with the specs that you mentioned?

I guess it would be a good experiment, I will have to try that.

Thnx

Or at least the company emailed to say that all parts of the order from ~5 months ago arrived,

supply chain, supply chain, supply chain…………….

Sherlock:

Have you A/B’ed you cables against lamp cord? 

Glad you asked. I knew you would ask that question. You folks always ask that question. The answer is YES. I always do A/Bs, and always double blind, with my neighbors as third party. As a matter of fact, I just did an ABX yesterday. I nailed it ten out of ten. I was trying to determine whether I can really distinguish between Luciano Pavarotti and Michael Jackson, or weather brain was playing tricks to me 🙄

Well @thyname Michael Jackson was wearing masks before it became fashionable. So there is something there.

@pesky_wabbit yeah supply chain is probably it.

Luckily I was able to use the lamp cord as the fat 4’ AQ cables that connect to the monoblocks, would not stretch out to a stereo amp that replaced the blown monoblock(s).

The OP could also get some copper bar to replace the jumper on his speakers. Which should be easier to source with the supply chain dramas.

The speakers still sound great with lamp cords, but I did bi-wire them as they seemed a bit skinny. At least the picture is a true depiction of how it sits at the moment. Maybe it sound good because the speakers are good… but the bass end of the spectrum has been a bit thin.

@jay73 RE: 

So, you literally mean copper wire terminated to spade or banana plugs with the specs that you mentioned?

Exactly - here's the problem with those plates

• they are most probably made of brass or even some copper alloy like Copper Beryllium
• this will not conduct the signal as effectively as pure copper
• if you plug the cables into the HF terminals then the low frequencies are impacted
• if oyu plug the cables into the LF terminals then the high frequencies are impacted
• replacing the plated with pure copper (like Romex) or even better use UP-OCC copper, then you should hear no change regardless of which terminals you pluf the cables into

I had a pair of bi-wire speakers

• I tried bi-wire cables and they worked OK
• then I replaced the plate-jumpers with copper wire and went back to a single cable and it actually sounded better.
• Then a fellow DIYer told me about the 20" jumper - he had researched different lengths a lot and 20" was the optimum length
• I then made UP-OCC copper jumpers from 2 x 18 gauge wire from VH Audio and the speakers had never sounded so good

If you are into DIY tale a look at these cables - they provide excellent results

My Audio Alchemy (image99.net)

If you have any questions just ask

Hope that helps - Steve

Nice photos by the way too steve!...

@williewonka 

Thanks for all the information.

Would you be able to provide a photo of your jumpers?

Curious to see what it looks like.

Thnx

@jay73 - unfortunately I recently sold those speakers with he Jumpers on them and I did not take any pictures.

But they are very simple

• I used two pieces of VH Audio UP-OCC 18 gauge copper wire for each jumper 20 inches long
  • strip the insulation at one end of the pair for about 1/2"
  • twist tightly together
  • Then twist the two wires in a more relaxed twist
    • about one complete twist every 3 to 4 inches (see image)
  • Finish the other end in the same way - with e tight twist
  • Then on each end I use KLE Innovations Banana plugs, they provide the best sound quality
    • but you can use bananas or spades of your choice,
    • Furez makes a very good pure copper or silver plated copper spade

Hope that helps - Steve

@williewonka 

Thank You, that helps a lot. 

I appreciate your detailed feedback!

I would just replace the metal link with a good short  wire.

Bi-wiring is making this short wire a long one, still connected to the amp but at the amp binding post instead of the speaker binding post.

As a result of bi-wiring, you just add lengths of wires, and therefore resistance.

I just bought a pair of Grover Huffman bi-wires (Empress) for my Sonus Faber Extremas and they sound noticeably better than jumpers. 

As a result of bi-wiring, you just add lengths of wires, and therefore resistance.

Technically ^that^ is not correct.
The longer wire effectively would be double the size (area) of the same wire with a jumper, and lower resistance a touch.

But it would also not really matter a whole lot either.

The MR and Tweeter take up around half of the power, unless they ar e big floor standers.

I recently switched from bi-wiring back to single cables (by removing one of the two identical sets of speaker cables) and installed home made jumpers from high quality copper speaker cable instead of using the jumper plates.  The sound quality was better.  Not sure how to explain it, but the music was more clear / cohesive.  

ghd Prentice then you must have a hearing problem buddy because bi-wiring  a speaker that is designed to be bi-wired you can hear the difference no problem, but some speakers have four binding posts but they're not properly designed for biwiring but if they are then you will hear the sounds stage open up even more and gets wider and deeper more airy and spacious, so if you've been at this for so long and if you haven't heard a difference you better get your ears checked buddy cuz you don't know what you're talking about..

ghd Prentice then you must have a hearing problem buddy because bi-wiring  a speaker that is designed to be bi-wired you can hear the difference no problem, but some speakers have four binding posts but they're not properly designed for biwiring but if they are then you will hear the sounds stage open up even more and gets wider and deeper more airy and spacious, so if you've been at this for so long and if you haven't heard a difference you better get your ears checked buddy cuz you don't know what you're talking about..

But he said this (about 6 posts into it which I have made Bold and underlined.):
 

Very true… good quality speaker cable first, and then biwiring. I used a set of Cardas Gold Reference for many years. The primary driver of the sound was the high quality… secondarily the bi-wiring… but to my surprise, bi-wiring was better. Always sounded silly… but it was a bit better.

My thoughts are as follows, If the speaker is bi wireable, then do it. Tannoy designs their higher tier speakers to be bi wired, and it is in the user manual. I have used Audioquest type 4 cables, two pair, to accomplish this. To me, it just sounds better. Tannoy does something I have not seen on other speakers, and that is the provision of a 5th binding post used for grounding. Again, it is mentioned in manual to do this. Who am I to question the manufacturer? So, I have both speakers grounded to my amp using 14 gauge stranded copper wire. According to them, it achieves an even better midrange clarity. My end goal is to eventually use two runs or pairs of Auditorium 23 speaker cable (4 meters). However, that will set me back another $3200. So for now, the Stereophile recommended type 4 cables will suffice. Audio Advisor can make up a pair of Audioquest no frills type 4 cable in any length or termination. I found this to be the best route to keep cost down. They do a very nice job. 

My apogee duetta 2's definitely sound better biwiring, even with inexpensive wire. Using thin stranded wire on the bass foil and thick stranded wire on the mid-range tweeters seems to work best.

always amazed here that some people clearly can type, yet cannot read... 🤷‍♂️

Well I appreciate all the feedback, great info.

I will need to test and let my Ears be the judge as to what sounds good in my particular system.

Is there such a thing as bi-wire speakers?

• I think what we refer to as "Bi-wire speakers"
• were actually designed for "Bi-amping"

I understand and hear the impact of Bi-amping

But in a Single-Amp system that connects to Bi-Amp speakers

• I do prefer using a good quality single cable with good quality jumpers
  • i.e. as opposed to Bi-wire cables
• I also realize some amps come with a second set of outputs
  • but generally, that second set of terminals are connected to the same outputs as the first set

Semantics? - probably 🙄

Regards - Steve 😧

no