Pure analog system with high power

ARC has been making preamps for 50 years. I bought my first as a pretty old used one so it fit in my budget. It sounded magnificent. Then I upgraded over the decades. Used mainstream audiophile stuff always sounds good and is a great way to go.

@jjss49 thanks! cj could be a great solution, do you have to re
any nice model to recommend i can look for into used market? AR i'm afraid is out of budget, would like to invest 2500/3000$ for the preamp

@smrex13 thanks again for the great inputs, both primaluna100 and rogue rp 1 are on my list now

audio research and conrad johnson

longtime stalwarts of the high end tube amplification scene... as i like to say, when a company like this has been this successful continuously, for so long, it cannot be because they have been stealing deaf people’s money for all these years! :)

others hot companies come and go, but these two, now into second generation of management/ownership still carry the banner proudly ... they can be said to be expensive (they are) and ’the safe play’ (perhaps) but their quality build, their beautiful sound, their excellent support, makes sure customers past and present do get what they pay for ....

@dhites “To continue on rfnoise's promotion of Audio Research....”

Me too. Too long a list for me as I first got an inexpensive ARC preamp... then phonostage... and now all ARC gear. The span of time from first component to all was 40 years. I could have taken a more direct path if I had zeroed in on all ARC from the beginning... and of course, had more money when I was younger.

@adversam To be honest, I don't know too much about tube preamps, as I haven't used separates too often.  I can only mention a few manufacturers who have a reputation for producing good tube preamps:

1.  Aric Audio:  He's a small operation here in the US, but he is very responsive to customers.  His preamps are praised by nearly everyone who owns one.  His Transcend 6SN7 Linestage retails for $2165.  

2.  Primaluna:  Their new EVO series 100 preamp retails for $2100 here in the U.S.  There are also bargains to be had on the used market with Primaluna gear.  Their website is quite informative.  

3.  Rogue Audio:  An American company that produces a wide range of tube preamps.  They get good reviews, and their RP-1 retails for about $1800 here.

I'm sure others will share many more possibilities.  One quick note on compatibility between separates - the input impedance of the power amp should be at least 10 times the output impedance of the preamp.  For example, the Primaluna EVO 100 has an output impedance of 2800 ohms, so you would want a power amp with an input impedance of at least 28K ohms.  

Cheers,Scott

@dhite71 thanks for your sharing o  Audio Research, i will check for sure the used market, it won't be easy as in Eu is more difficult to find these gears than in US. The Ref 3 is something i have at the top of the list, I'd buy it in case of a good offer

@smrex13 thank you again for the input... a new turntable is going to be the first shot... as i have an old Revolver which needs to be replaced. I almost decided to go for a Rega Planar 6 with Exact Cartridge. Plus phono Rega Aria. Regarding the preamp you are absolutely right and i almost convinced myself to go with separates... So far i read great opinions on Schiit Freya, a new one costs in Eu 1000 dollars... Do you have any suggestion in the range of 2000$?

@adversamTo continue on rfnoise's promotion of Audio Research, I am going to give my whole story to emphasize how much I love their sound.  There are sooo many choices and my experience is very limited, but I am a huge fan and went through this pathway:

Classic 120 mono block amps
LS3B linestage
PH5 phono

CL120s
LS26 linestage
PH7 phono

REF 150 amp
REF 3 linestage
REF 2 phono

GSi75 integrated

The Classic 120s were my first ARC products.  I had a B&K preamp and Parasound HCA2200ii amp at the time to compare.  Those 110wpc from the ARC sounded much more full and dynamic  compared to the Parasound's 250wpc.  I picked up a 2nd HCA 2200ii and bridged them so was comparing those 750wpc to the CL120's 110wpc and they CL120s still won.  I know it is hard to believe, but they really did!  My main point thus far is to not get uber focused on specs.  That is one thing I have learned over the years is to only trust your ears.  I don't care what the damping factor or rated power is of my ARC amps...they sound amazing and have driven my low to modest efficiency speakers well(86 and 89db)

I accepted that I was a tube fan and sold the Parasound amps and listened to the CL120s for about 3 years before getting the REF 150 along with all the other upgrades you see above.  While the REF 150 sounded glorious, I got a GSi75 that popped up for a good price.  I thought what the heck, if I don't like it I will resell.  Well, I love it and I sold all the separates.  They don't pop up too often and that alone would be out of your stated 'amp' budget.  The GSi75 has a great phono and DAC so depending on your ability to check one out, you may be able to sell other gear to consider an all-in-one integrated.  ARC also has the VSi75 that is a standard integrated with no phono nor DAC.  I love ARC's sound and would encourage you to audition.  There is rumor of a new integrated in their lineup that is customizable regarding plug-ins like the phono and DAC.  This would need time to settle into the used market to be feasible so just an FYI.

While I love my current system I am always curious about other components and lately I have really wanted to hear one of Mark Levinson's latest integrated amps.  Their 5805 would be in your budget used and is also an all-in-one with the phono and DAC.  Their 585.5 is more powerful and similar to my GSi75 in pricing so would need the selling of your other gear to open up your budget.  I have no idea how they sound but have been very well reviewed.

Enjoy the hunt and come back to your thread when you pull the trigger.

Dana

@adversam I've heard good things about Odyssey amps, but I don't have experience with them.  Rather than asking whether an amp is a good match for vinyl, I think the question is more whether an amp will be a good match with your speakers.  With respect to the Parasound A21 - yes, it will certainly drive your speakers well.  

And if you are looking at separates rather than an integrated amp, the preamp is likely to have more impact on the overall sound of your system than the amp will (assuming that the amp has enough power for your speakers, of course). 

In any event, if you are trying to get your vinyl system to sound as good as possible, I would probably worry least about the power amp - Bryston, Odyssey, Parasound, Musical Fidelity, etc. all make amps that will drive your speakers with good control and power.  It's far more important to get the cartridge, tonearm, turntable, and phono preamp working together well (and the preamp if you are going with separates). 

At least that's my opinion.  Others may differ, which is why this hobby is fun!

Cheers, Scott  

I understand that Magnepan uses Bryston for reference electronics. But could be wrong.

@smrex13 thank you again for your reply, you're really giving me great inputs! indeed regarding the integrated i m between the hint6 and the m6si... following your previous comment i also went to check the input sensibility but i confirm you that for m6si there' s no info... i'm also thinking of odyssey's amps but first need to find out about eventual shipping to eu. I have a last question for you, coming back to Parasound's gears... as an alternative to the Hint6 I'm seriously considering an Halo A21 power amp, maybe with a Schiit Freya as a preamp... Did you have any experience with the A21? Could it be a good match playing music with a turntable? Thanks again for your precious help:)

@adversam I think you're making a good choice by considering an integrated amp with high power - that approach will work well with Magnepans, Harbeths, and most other speakers as well.  It's a great foundation for whatever you decide to do down the road. 

I won't pretend to know the used market at your price point.  As far as new integrated amps, here are a few companies that make products that are generally well regarded by reviewers and people who have owned them long term:

-Parasound:  HINT 6 - Yes, you're paying for a bunch of other stuff (dac, phono stage), but by all accounts it's a very good integrated amp even if you aren't using its other features.

-Musical Fidelity:  M6si - This one is a powerhouse - 220wpc.  For some reason, MF doesn't spec their input sensitivity, so you might want to do some research to see if it's a good match.  The M5si is also well regarded and still has 150wpc into 8 ohms.

-Bryston - they only make one integrated amp now, and it's beyond your budget.  But Bryston gear lasts forever, so the used market might be an option here.

Hegel - Many people rave about Hegel.  I have tried two of their integrated amps (H80 and H200) over the years.  Neither worked well for me, but I'm in the minority.  In hindsight, I wonder if they have a lower input sensitivity, as they sounded distant and lacked dynamics.  To be fair, I haven't heard any of their more recent models.

Those are just some quick thoughts.  Ideally, you'd be able to hear them in your own system.  But, again, if you get a well designed, high powered integrated amp, then you can have fun experimenting with phono stages (tubed and ss), different cartridges, turntables, tonearms, and speakers, all of which likely will have a far greater impact on the sound of your system. 

Cheers,
Scott  

@smrex13 thanks again that' s a very nice info... could you mention some integrated or power amp which played your vinyls in a very satisfying way? that's exactly the recommendation i need as basically i play just vinyls as you

Magnepan’s are great sounding speakers period. Don’t let people put you off from them. You will need tons of high current and watts to drive them, don’t let anyone tell you different. Macintosh and Magnepan’s are not a good fit. Classe Amps are the perfect fit. I prefer the older Classe Amps. Current Magnepan system: Magnepan 20.1’s with Classe CAM350’s. I know that’s not in y our budget, but the big panels give the big bass. Any model from the MGIIIA"s and up will give you very nice bass. I hear great things about the LRS’s, get a great servo sub, with a used Classe CA200 or comparable Classe amp and you should be good to go...Enjoy the Music...
Before I get slammed, I really like Macintosh Amps, just not with Magnepan Speakers.

@adversam Yep, still vinyl only.  It wasn't so much a problem to solve, rather than a specification that I learned to pay attention to.  I'll provide my (fairly limited) understanding on the issue, but I'm sure others can add to it.  The quality of the external phono stage is irrelevant for this discussion - a high quality stage and a cheap stage with the same gain and the same cartridge will put out the same voltage.  

To keep the math simple, the standard 40db/60db gain for MM/MC corresponds to 100x/1000x amplification.  So, if you have a 4mV MM cartridge, your MM phono stage will put out 400mv (100x4mV).  Similarly, a .4mV cartridge into an MC stage put out the same 400mv (1000x.4mV).  Of course, the phono stage will output more voltage on musical peaks.

I'll now use the example of two different integrated amps that I have demoed at home.  The first had a very low input sensitivity of 1.2v (note: higher numbers = lower input sensitivity).  So, my 40db phono stage wasn't even putting out half the voltage needed to drive the integrated to full power.  This amp sounded terribly dull with no dynamic punch.  The second integrated had a high input sensitivity of 125mV, so my phono stage was putting out more than three times the needed voltage to drive it to full power.  On this particular amp, I couldn't use much of volume control range - it got very loud very quickly.

I've found the most success in choosing integrated amps that have an input sensitivity a little lower than the output of the phono stage, but not significantly lower.  So, with a 400mV output from the phono stage, integrated amps with input sensitivity in the 200-350mV range have worked the best in terms of having good range on the volume control, no overloading, and still maintaining a full, dynamic sound.

I'm just sharing my personal experience and my admittedly limited knowledge on input sensitivity.  Others may correct some errors above, but I'm pretty damn certain about my experience :).  

Cheers,Scott
 

@smrex13 thanksfor the advice, maybe a good external phono would help? how did you solve this issue? still playing vinyls?

@jjss49 Willsenton is a chinese product, Hegel is a norwegian company which moved to China part of the production and that's what i find a bit of a different concept, including the use of china made components which can actually have good quality... Anyway the Hegel was on my list and i'll test it because i'm very curious after hearing all the favorauble reviews... of course if i fall in love with the sound I ll go against my principles, even i still dislike their policies

One word of caution in a vinyl only system - pay careful attention to the input sensitivity of the integrated amps that you are considering.  In my analog system, I tried several different integrated amps, and some of them sounded dull and lifeless (which contradicted reviews and owners' experiences).  At times it was baffling - I would sit there listening and think, "This is the amp people have been raving about?"  After some investigation, I discovered that integrated amps with a low input sensitivity did not work well in my system.  The lower output voltage of a phono stage (compared to digital sources) can't drive some integrated amps to full power.  It was a good (but needlessly expensive) learning experience.

Cheers,
Scott 

@adversam

willsenton is made in china too ... why would you consider?

otoh - odyssey is ’made’ in indiana, usa but using china made components, casing, wiring, transformer, is that better?

best wishes on your search, hope you find what pleases you...

😂😂😂

I concur with hshifi regarding the 'right amp' requiring the appropriate current and wattage not just watts.

I heard a 80 watt ARC amp that was driving Sonus faber Olympica IIs and I was shocked at the punch and bass coming from a '80 watt' amp.  It certainly seemed to have the same punch and impact of my 300 watt amp at home.

Therefore, auditioning and/or home trials are critical.

I went w/ 120v since I’m in the US. I chose the KT88s and the standard preamp tubes which IMO sound amazing.  I’m in no rush to tube roll the preamp section but will eventually out of curiosity.  I tried some el34’s power tubes but I missed the bass and dynamics of the KT88’s, but they were incredible for jazz and vocals.  Also remember I’m using 85db speakers, you may fall in love w el34s.  I want to try KT77s next to see what they are like.  That’s the nice thing about tubes, you can tweak the sound in meaningful ways without purchasing all new gear.  Well I guess Tubes are new gear.  It also has a triode/ultra linear switch on the remote which has a dramatic effect on the sound. Triode is a little softer with better separation of instruments and ultra linear sounds more powerful and brings the vocals forward. These are not subtle audiophile differences either, your friends and family members will notice. It takes about 6 weeks or so for delivery but that should provide enough time to for you figure out what tubes to try.  
So many of my preconceived opinions on tubes were wrong (lack of detail, lack of bass, only for sensitive speakers) I just wish I hadn’t waited so long to try them. 

Hello,
The one killer in all of this is the Maggie’s. They need the right amp to drive them. Not just power but damping factor. I would go with a Hegel 120. I know it seems low at 75watts. The main thing is the damping factor. This amp will push your Maggie’s very well. They are on your side of the pond. They are $3000 usd. You can use the rest on the sub you will need.  REL is very fast and a great match for your Maggie’s. It will have some digital built in so you can explore a little to decide what vinyl you want to buy. You are right about the Rogue Chronus Magnum. I thought it was 60 watts not 100. Still, more than enough power. If you want to try to work with a dealer in the states the local store in the Chicagoland area is a dealer. Maybe you can come to a deal with shipping. https://holmaudio.com/You should call and work out a deal. Plus, this Rogue is built very well and is the perfect sweet spot for all speakers. 

@perkadin thanks, i've seen some reviews about the Willsenton R8 and everybody seems to be in love with it... I was checking the seller's page... did you choose the 240 voltage? Sorry for the silly question but i have zero experience with tubes

Well if you are starting with an amp you really must try tubes and your current speakers are pretty tube friendly. They have a certain realism in the way they make sound I haven’t been able to find as easily in SS gear.  I personally like push pull integrated amps.  With an integrated it’s easier to resell, no issues w pre/power synergy, and some push pull designs have enough juice for low efficiency speakers (though probably not Maggie’s).
I’m not sure what your local market looks like, but I love my Willsenton R8. Due to the backlog in manufacturing the resale prices are pretty close to new, and yes they will sell on the used market nearly immediately, which should tell you something.  I’d order one direct and if you don’t like it, you’ll find plenty of takers second hand. Otherwise try and find a Prima Luna or another highly popular tube amp manufacturer.  
I pair it with Dynaudio Contours which is actually an excellent match for a well built tube amp, especially with kt88 tubes. I’ve had monster SS amps in my system and the Willsenton gives up little in the bass department while offering wonderfully natural mids and highs. The Willsenton is almost 70lbs though, the transformers are massive which probably has something to do with it being speaker friendly. I use mine in triode mode.  It’s a holographic, natural, meaty sound with all the sizzle and snap you could ask for. 

@adversam,

The Odyssey is an excellent choice.  I owned Odyssey for many years and it mated well with many different preamps.  Although I have moved on to more expensive gear, I still kick myself for selling it.  Yup, it was that good. 

@perdakin thanks for your feedback... could be either tube or solid state without an6 kind of dac or digital input... very easy stuff regarding the specs as i just needto play lps or cds... do you have any favourite combination to recommend? regarding magnepans it' something i'd like to try sooner or later but after the amp i could also buy something totally different, especially if i get good ideas to try

When you say pure analog system, do you mean you want a tube amp?  Also, the best value for the money in my definition would be essentially free, which is a very real possibility in high end audio. I view value a bit differently and always consider resale valuation and total Cost of ownership.  I usually aim to break even on an audio purchase.  Buy used, get reputable, reliable, easy to sell brands and your main costs will be on records and wear and tear items like tubes and needles.  Don’t waste money on expensive digital equipment (the biggest losers are always feature based products that can become obsolete, but that doesn’t sound like it will be an issue.  Spend money on speakers and amplification (but don’t go too big as shipping and placement becomes a detriment to resale). I’d also avoid niche designs like Maggie’s that work best with specific music genres and are very equipment and room dependent.  
Tips- look for popular brands and models that come up ad nauseam in the forums, find out the typical prices they sell for and be patient. If you have trouble finding it used because it sells too quick, that’s probably a winner right there.  Buying local really helps as well, you generally won’t make back shipping costs on resale.  

About Bryston - their trade-in program only applies to Bryston gear. So if you're upgrading from a 4B to another Bryston piece they will take your 4B in trade.

Different generations of Bryston sound rather different. The SST series is a bit mellow and very pleasing, the SST squared is little bright (so I'm told), and the SST cubed is much more precise and a little mellow (so I'm told).

Anyway, I had a 2B which was used for a sub - and it was good. I also had a 3B SST and a 4B SST for my Magnepan 2-channel system. Then I went ESL with DIY electronics for 2-channel, and sold the Brystons.

But now I have a separate HT which requires good clean subs, and that  means a big, stable, bullet-proof, forever SS amp: that is, a Bryston 4B SST, bought factory reconditioned and certified from Bryston.

By the way, Bryston plus Magnepan is a marriage made in heaven. My personal experience.

I was using a Bryston 4b with Magnepan Tympanis ~40 years ago!

Hi Johnto, yes if i don't get separates, regarding integrated the Halo is the first one i'm going to audition... some says it's not engaging enough, but i want to hear it

@guyincognito the H190 is definitely something i'd like to test... what i don't like from Hegel is that it's all made in China

Maggie's are truly wonderful sounding speakers when paired with a high current amp. I used the 1.7 with a Parasound Halo Hint and it was great sounding. You get everything you need in one package including bass management which is helpful if you add a it sub.
Have fun auditioning, with speakers you need to listen and decide for yourself.

What about Hegel? Something like the H190 new or maybe an H390 if you could find one used should be in your price range. They are well regarded and I assume easy to find in the UK.

hi audioguy85... regarding speakers it's a tough competition between the small harbeths and the mag .7... At least i can demo the harbeth's here... for the maggies will be not so easy... the sugden a21 is your current amp? looks great!

@headphonedreams thanks for recommendation on schiit gear, it' s one at the top of my list... thinking of freya vidar combo, but first would like to find feedbacks regarding Odyssey gears... they are made in US and they sell directly... any idea on that one ?

Best bang for the watt/buck
Parasound A21+ Amp
Parasound JC2 Preamp 
both for less than $4k
Really good solid state equipment and resale is very good as well
this system will drive nearly any speaker
Good luck Willy-T

I'd go with harbeth p3esr, seeing as you mentioned harbeths, and a class A sugden a21se integrated.

I tend to agree with MC about more efficient speakers. However IF you have heard the Maggies and like them, then so be it. Lots of people do. That's why I auditioned them. They sounded great...as long as you stay in the sweet spot. Salesman said they weren't set up just right and maybe so. But everything appeared in order. And maybe a small adjustment may have opened the sweet spot. But the sweet spot was immensely small. If I leaned my head over to make a comment, I lost the sweet spot. I don't know if that was normal. But I didn't care for that aspect. Maybe others who have them can chime in on that issue. 

Sorry I can't be more help on the amps or integrated. 

thanks gestalt i totally missed this one... plus they are in Krakow, where i live... definitely to put on my list!

thanks rfnoise, the legacy with your ARC pre seems a wonderful solution, i'll consider it for sure... do you believe a schiit freya preamp could also be a good match with legacy? or the candela vacuum tube from odyssey? it seems both are good preamp.

You might like the A100 from Polish design studio Circle Labs if you can find one; the A200 is their flagship integrated but at a bit higher price.

Welcome @adversam.  You are certainly on the right track with all your choices.

Don't let that awful bully Miller put you off your course.  He is obsessed by ultra high efficiency speakers and therefore ignores 90% of speakers many of which have superlative sound quality, including panels like Magnepan.  You should also try electrostatics when your budget allows.

As to amps, like others I suggest you tap the used market.  High end solid state leviathans push out bags of watts for decades without needing service.  My Krell KRS200s, pure Class A, were built in the mid-80s.  I bought them in 1989 and had them fully serviced and re-capped just once, in 2005.  They cost £35,000 or something new.  I paid £8,000 and they still sell for that.  And wow!  they don't half look the business.  I used to be able to lift them!

Oh, here’s a link to an old listing that has a pic of the sales brochure on it.

https://www.audioexchange.co.za/product/legacy-audio-power-amplifier/

@adversam


I’m using an Audio Research Corporation LS-25 MkII.
Thus far I’m pretty sold on the “tube pre/SS power” combo. Great imaging, open airy highs, and a real authoritative grip on the low end. Overall, I’d characterize the sound of the amp as being just a tad warmer than neutral.


I hate to fall into the “buy what I have” camp, but I really lucked out with this amp; The Bryston I was looking at was $2500.

Funny story... The guy I ended up buying my Legacy from turned out to be selling it BC he’d “upgraded” and actually bought the exact Bryston I’d been looking at. When we hooked up my preamp to the Legacy to audition, I looked over at him and he was shaking his head. I asked him if something was wrong and he told me that the amp he was selling me sounded better paired with my preamp than his new Bryston paired with his SS pre 😁.

Before I settled on my ARC pre, I was looking at both Audio By Van Alstine and Quicksilver Audio, but I can’t personally recommend either as I never had a chance to Audition them.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Best of luck!

@rfnoise thanks, looks like a great recommendation... which preamp are you using with it?

hi terry, regarding bryston, you mean they trade in whatever? i have stuff i don't use anymore like a nad3020 and a pair of tannoy mercury m2. which bryston gear have you in use?

Hi Alexleatham, which speakers are you using? 

Hi Mrklas... I was thinking of Rega Elicit... but 160 watt on 4 ohm is a bit low... Rega Aethos is out of budget

I just changed from a Rega Brio to Schiit Ragnarok 2. It is a HUGE upgrade, you will not be dissapointed. Of course may not be as good as a much more expensive Pass amp. It has pretty low power, though. About 60W into 8 ohm.

The good news is that you can buy them in Europe from
https://www.schiit-europe.com/

I think you should look into buying 2 Vidar and a pre-amp. That will give you much more power and hopefully sound as good or better.
https://www.schiit-europe.com/product/vidar-intelligent-stereo-mono-power-amplifier-2/

You can also look for brands that are easier to find in Europe like Aavik, Copland, Devialet or Hegel. The Aavik I-180 looks good but costs more. Hegel H190 might be perfect in price.