My music on great days sounds three dimensional with great sound stage depth, good solid bass , and no harshness on the high end.Those few days, I may listen for hours, However most days it sounds flat with no depth and I can't listen for more that 30 minutes or so. This is not a new thing. Its been happening through all different equipment and several houses for years Has anyone had this experience and would a PS Audio Power Plant like the P10 or P20 help? Thanks
I would like to revive this thread about PS Audio's PowerPlant AC regenerator units. May I ask if any of the long time experienced folks here have had direct experience with these units? For the whole system, or just certain components? Used on power hungry power amplifiers? Gets expensive if you have a large system, with the wattage adding up across all the pieces.
I have an older Audioprism passive AC line filter, as well as the TLP Audio/Blue Circle filters and they don’t seem to be doing much. If I remove them and the music sounds no different, yet I understand in my area the power is not very good, there are quite a few industrial users around here.
to add a little more information on mechanical hum. also to note mechanical hum and hum in your system may not be related. but usually mechanical hum is associated with a faulty transformer, poor sine wave input, over saturation, bad windings, wrong transformer for the job and more. power conditioning may not always take away mechanical hum. system hum is a different beast and like others have said could be a host of issues.
Why do transformers hum?
Transformer noise is caused by a phenomenon which causes a piece of magnetic sheet steel to extend itself when magnetized. When the magnetization is taken away, it goes back to its original condition. This phenomenon is scientifically referred to as magnetostriction. A transformer is magnetically excited by an alternating voltage and current so that it becomes extended and contracted twice during a full cycle of magnetization.
The magnetization of any given point on the sheet varies, so the extension and contraction is not uniform. A transformer core is made from many sheets of special steel to reduce losses and moderate the ensuing heating effect. The extensions and contractions are taking place erratically all over a sheet and each sheet is behaving erratically with respect to its neighbor, so you can see what a moving, writhing construction it is when excited. These extensions are miniscule proportionally and therefore not normally visible to the naked eye. However, they are sufficient to cause a vibration, and consequently noise. Applying voltage to a transformer produces a magnetic flux, or magnetic lines of force in the core. The degree of flux determines the amount of magnetostriction and hence, the noise level.
Why not reduce the noise in the core by reducing the amount of flux? Transformer voltages are fixed by system requirements. The ratio of these voltages to the number of turns in the winding determines the amount of magnetization. This ratio of voltage to turns is determined mainly for economical soundness. Therefore the amount of flux at the normal voltage is fixed. This also fixes the level of noise and vibration. Also, increasing (or decreasing) magnetization does not affect the magnetostriction equivalently. In technical terms the relationship is not linear.
i would like to respond also to the comment above about what the PS tech guy said. here is my response after doing a little homework.
The newer designs use all new devices including outputs and
drivers. These are much more robust and cut the output impedance in half which
contributes greatly to sound quality. Energy storage has doubled. The sine wave
generation is lower distortion and uses a much higher resolution Dac to
generate the sine wave. The difference in sound quality between the two is
significant.
I do know that the PPP was bettered by the P5 which in turn was bettered by the P10. it has a lot to do with the energy storage and the sine wave being generated. I am no techie so this is the best i can do. I am pretty confident that the P20 will be much better.
I'm a big fan of PS Audio gear and have been extremely happy with my DirectStream Junior DAC. I purchased the P5 last year. I liked the sound improvement, but that was completely outweighed by sound of the fan, which ran fairly often. I sit in the near field, about 9 feet from each speaker, so that's probably about 8 feet from my media cabinet where the P5 was. I could hear the fan noise plain as day. I contacted customer support and they had me record the sound of the fan with my iPhone. Upon listening to the recording, they felt there was a problem with the unit and had me send it back for repair. I wasn't really convinced that the fan would stop making noise completely so I just had them process the return. They were really good about it. I just learned the lesson that for me, cooling fans are a no-go in my system. I got a Shunyata Hydra AV instead and I've been quite happy. I would have liked to get a P10 (which is fanless), but I don't have room for it.
@joeschmoe I had a much different conversation with PS tech. support. Perhaps the circumstances at the time affected our conversation. At that time, PS was offering over $1000 in trade-in value on a P5 or P10. Their advice to me was definite that the P5 would be a significant upgrade over the PPP and that I WOULD be able to run my power amp off of it, which I could not do with the PPP. The time I tried to do so, the regenerator went offline requiring me to return it to PS.
I did the deal and my entire system runs off of it using only 34% of its capacity! A great piece of gear.
As someone who has an entire system of PS Audio, i am admittedly a bit prejudiced. I have gone from a PPP, to a P5, to a P10 and each time was a noticeable improvement in sound. If i would use one sentence, it was that everything was more effortless and easy sounding. I plan to buy a P20 later this year and sell the P10. just got to save up my duckies first.
I just recently purchased a used PS Audio Power Plant Premier, it wasn't working properly, so I sent it in to PS Audio for repair. While talking to PS Audio technical support, I asked what the difference was between the PPP and the new P5/P10/P20....Besides price? His answer was basically, the bells and whistles (Cool LED/LCD screen, network connectivity, and oscilloscope functions) As for the re-generation section he said it was basically the same through all the products. Minor improvements but nothing earthshaking... Once I got my PPP back and installed into my system, their was a noticeable difference is sound...The noise floor was so low that the music presented itself as completely new recordings. To hear the finer details in the sound was astounding. I do not believe line conditioners would provide you with the same result as a power regenerator could based on how the 2 work, which is completely different with completely different outputs. @keithjacksontucson if you can find a used P5 or P10 I'd buy it in a heart beat or even a PPP as it will support up to a continuous load of 1500W which a significant continuous load.
I upgraded my Furman power conditioner to the P10 about a year ago and while the difference wasn't dramatic, it was noticeable and positive. I'd say the biggest difference was "blacker blacks" to use a video analogy if that makes sense. It was if the music was emanating from a cleaner background. I do get some hum from the transformer inside it sometimes, and while I wish that wasn't there, it isn't very noticeable. I'm maxed out on outlets and power capacity of the thing, but I'm running 6 amps off of it (2x mid/high, 2x mid bass, 2x subs) plus many less power hungry components. I could use a P20, but I don't have the room in my rack. I recommend the PSA gear, though the trusty old Furman still works too (and is now moved to the 2nd system)
Fsonicsmith we sell the Syncro and to say it is remarkable is an understatement.
It does a lot more than just block dc.
One of the best things you can do to elevate an entire system.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ
That was my thinking too-that it likely doe more than just block DC. Thank you for the support-now I just have to hope you're right. I am getting excellent sound now. On well recorded material, my speakers disappear and my soundstage is wide and deep. Bass is taut. Transcients can be startling. So, I figured I had nothing to lose and you never know what you might gain. On a side note, I gave you some grief on a different thread (Elac Adante). Thanks for being nice to me. I will try and return the goodwill.
BTW, it's definitely, absolutely not either DC on the line or a ground loop. I've also had every breaker in the house turned off save the one controlling the receptacle the CMII was plugged into. Rogue asked about the sensitivity of my speakers (average: PMC twenty.24). But the fact that the transformers also hum tells me it's not just a possible mismatch issue.
Hmmm (pun), which Isotek did you try? I have no discernable transformer hum but I am nevertheless intrigued by the Isotek Syncro and have one coming in two days to go along with an Isotek Aquarius. I do have some very slight hum through my speakers, not enough to hear from my listening position. Having very sensitive loudspeakers never helps and I do believe that with sensitive speakers and tube gear, some low level hum is inevitable. I have DeVore 0/93's and an ARC Ref 150SE. The biggest change in hum level came with-of all things-a switch of equipment rack. I went from a cheap MDF shelf rack to a Symposium Osiris Ultimate which Peter of Symposium says features a Faraday Cage effect as well as vibration isolation. I shrugged off the Faraday Cage thing as so much typical audio hype, but it seems to be true. My amp is not on the main rack but in front of it, so I am left thinking that one or more of my other components on my audio rack were interfering with each other and causing the hum. They consist of my preamp, phono stage, and DAC.
@hifiman5 Well, there’s another part to this story. I ordered the P5 a couple of months ago, directly from PS Audio. There was a delay of a few weeks before it was shipped. While I was waiting, I stumbled over the fact that the P10 and P5 were being discontinued, and replaced with new models that were supposedly much better and also a good deal more expensive. Also that current models couldn’t be upgraded. Further looking revealed that P5’s were unavailable (sold out/discontinued) just about everywhere, and that stores were selling their remaining P10’s at significantly reduced prices. I must have been one of the last people to whom PS A sold a P5 before they too ran out of units. Frankly, I was a bit miffed at paying full price. Unless the unit had done exactly what I wanted it to do*, it was going to go back. Otherwise, I would definitely have contacted them and got their take on the situation with the "whine".
* Explanation: my Rogue CMII integrated has some low-level hum *both* from the transformers and through the speakers. Together, the three sources can be heard from the listening chair when the music falls to silence. I’ve worked through a whole hassle of checking wiring, home remedies, disconnecting everything, various power conditioners, etc. etc., without any of them making a dent in the hum. Perhaps I’ll start a separate thread on it one day--too many things to list here. Level of hum is perhaps not enough to annoy many people, but it brings out my OCD.
P.S. For the record, units from Isotek, iFi, Audioquest, Furman, PS Audio, Blue Circle, Granite Audio, Audio by Van Alstine, Ebtech, have all passed through my listening room. The people at FedEx are beginning to recognize me...
There is only one right answer when it comes to power conditioners of any type-"they are all system-dependant". Everyone wants an easy answer and there is none. Welcome to audio. Matching components requires trial and error, finding the right loudspeaker requires trial and error, cable selection requires trial and error, and so it goes. Everyone's AC supply quality is unique, the extent of EMI/RFI is unique, the amount of back-wash noise into the AC is unique, and then all of this interacting with your particular components is unique to your system/situation. The fact that your system sounds different at different times of day is helpful but not reliable. It might be your grid or it might be you or it might be something in your house or it might be your neighbor turning on his Back to the Future Flux Capacitor (that last bit is a joke). But seriously, find a retailer who offers 14 day or better yet 30 day trials (I happen to like TheCableCo. no connection) and try a passive like an Audience or Isotek, an active like a PS Audio and a balanced isolation type such as Furman/Equi=tek/Equi=Core and find out for yourself. That is what I am doing.
I swapped out a Blue Circle X0e 6 for a new P5. I think the BC was better, deeper background, quieter, at a quarter the price. I wanted to like the P5, it’s still in the system but it might get pulled soon. Not trying to push the BC, just amazed at how that unit sounded compared to the"big name" PSA unit. No other experience with PSA.
Although the OP was speaking of PS's "Regenerator", your references to the AQ, MC and Torus are like comparing Apples to Watermelons.
Where the PS P5/P10/P20 are power re generators taking wall AC to DC to pure AC , your mentioned pieces are just glorified surge suppressors . ( and the MC 6 Hemisphere is limited to 10 amps which cuts out a lot of power amps. )
Whatever makes you and your system happy....Just a FYI ... Carry on !
Might be worth meantioning the Core Power Technology Equi=Core 1800 or 1200. The price is right, they review very well and despite the issues happening with another product the company is trying to release, the Deep Core, the 1800 is a great unit. I waited 3 months this past summer but I believe there is no longer a wait time (?). It’s not in my main system but quieted and brought out low level detail and better dynamics in my TV/HT system.
Had the PPP moved to the P10 was a nice step up then moved to the High Fidelity MC 6 Hemisphere again it was a step up in sound. But gave up the protection of the P10. The sound was much better with the MC 6 Hemisphere. Even tried the P10 and MC 6 Hemisphere together and the sound was only slightly better, but when i took the P10 out of the loop the sound got a lot better. The Hemisphere is a lot less money than a P10. The break in for the Hemisphere is long roller coaster ride before it settles in.
I have a P5 sourcing an all tube system. Manley Stingray II, Zetos Andros, Soundsmith Voice, VPI Prime Signature w/ADS. The sound is consistently wondrous. Close your eyes and you are there where the musicians are performing. Depth of stage as well as breadth is superb and imagine places the musicians where they belong in front of you. The increase in stable and repeatable imaging is amazing. It's all due to the power being delivers. Yes, they are worth is.
I had the P5, at first I thought it improved my sound, especially during low level listening. Then as I turned it up, I realized it did something:
It made things sound flat and restricted. I was used to the singer floating forwards towards me as I turned up the system volume, this was no longer the case.
I sold it.
Now I have the Torus RM15, much better in my experience.
@twoleftears Just curious if you ever contacted Paul McGowan about the "whine" issue?? The only time I hear a sound like that is during the "Clean" function.
I tried out a P5. On the Sinewave setting, it actually added a low-level whine (a little higher in pitch than a hum) to what you could already hear from the speakers when no music/ear by drivers. Multiwave 1-6 progressively reduced it, till it was gone with 6. Now the P5 is gone.
@keithjacksontucson The P5 is a whole different beast than the PPP. With the PPP I couldn't run my power amp off of it without shutting down the regenerator. The P5 handles the amp and all other equipment nicely. As I said previously, I am using only 34% of the P5's capacity with the amplifier. Sound is great!
I am very happy with the PS Audio P10 regenerator that I am using now. It replaced an Elrod Diamond power cord feeding an HB Cable Designs Marble distribution unit that was my best sounding power feed to my system. I changed because the cord/distributor approach couldn't protect my digital system from power issues that would introduce a 5 - 6 second disruption of music playing when A/C units turned on (neighbors' units included). The P10 eliminates this unthinkable nuisance, and it actually gives up very little sonically to the super cord and distributor, IME.
And for the most part my system sounds consistent to me, which is what your are inquiring about. I think you would like it, and I think the odds are that it would add an increment more beauty to your music, too.
I started with a P500 power plant, then a Premier Power Plant and now a P5. The P5 has revolutionized the sound of my system. Paul McGowan and the fine folks at PS Audio have been working on the regenerator for many years. The P5, 10 and now 20 are all manufactured in Boulder, CO where QC is excellent and the performance, exemplary. I am listening now to Arthur Rubinstein performing Chopin on an RCA Living Stereo SACD and the piano is in the room with me (or as close as I can imagine it getting). My input THD is 1.7% with the output being .1%. With my entire system connected, including my SMc Audio 200 watt/ch. amplifier, my P5 is running at 34% of capacity and the music is dynamic and clean. If your situation and wallet can accommodate a P10 or 20, well good for you!! Have at it. You will have great sound regardless of the day or time of day.
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