Hello, Assuming I have separate DAC, and I just want to play songs from iPad by Airplay feature. In this case, I need a streamer to receive music from my iPad -> DAC.
What’s the point of high price streamer? I’m bit surprised that some streamers are very high priced. From my understanding, there should be no sound quality difference. (Streaming reliability and build quality, I can see it but I do not see advantages in terms of sound quality.)
Am I missing something? If so, please share some wisdom.
Look – this thread is probably largely interesting but not completely helpful to what you are trying to do. You will not be convinced one way or the other by people stating their opinions between "bits are bits and the rest of charlatans separating fools from their money" and the "every strand from PSU to ethernet plug to digital out makes a huge difference".
This hobby requires work. Do some listening. Decide for yourself if (a) you can hear a difference and (b) that difference is worth a delta in spend.
FWIW, I had a Node2, which I used for some time as a streamer to a Chord 2qute (via coax). Then I bought a used Auralic Aries (the original w/ dual femto and linear power supply – via USB). I even tried it with a wall wart power supply... and in my experience, I thought I could hear significant differences in all three configs, and in ascending order of preference:
Tangential but slightly related... I even got a fancier USB cable (from Curious USB) last summer, and I think it makes a difference. Which goes against everything I was taught to believe about data transfer, error correction, etc... and I'd like to think as someone who was figuring out SCSI terminations in the 80s, that I've spent some time around data transfer over cables.
I can't promise you'd find the same result, but I definitely felt there were very noticeable sound differences across the three streaming scenarios above. I can't explain it with sound theoretical reasons (but know others have, frequently related to noise introduced by lower quality power supplies) – and up until doing that work myself, was in the "bits are bits" camp. In fact, I worked for years a networking company, and am still friends with product managers who design enterprise grade switches... and yet I still heard what I heard.
So do the work of listening to different setups! Find gear that has money back guarantees and do some listening. You'll also learn a whole bunch of other things about what you like and don't like as a side benefit, and the more you listen across different combinations of gear, the more you form an opinion of what works for your own tastes (hint: it may not be what measures best or is the darling of one or another forum).
You may even realize that the journey of 'doing the work' is just as, if not more, enjoyable as arriving at some final destination of a finished system :)
Like many on this thread, I started off thinking that high priced streamers were a solution in search of a problem. I deal with a lot of networking equipment, some running at 100Gb/sec. Surely a simple laptop can easily drive digital music over a USB port. We’re not talking a lot of bandwidth here. But as I tried to optimize my laptop, things took an unexpected turn.
Different music management software sounded different. Different cables sounded different. Reclockers changed the sound, not always for the better. Why? I have absolutely no idea. I thought that bits were pretty much bits. Just send them down the wire. But something more than that was obviously happening.
Given that I deal with getting various combinations of hardware and software to work together is what I do at work, I decided that I didn’t want to come home to more of the same. Plus, I wanted a good remote control setup, and I was struggling with my laptop in that respect. I just wanted something that worked well and sounded at least as good as my laptop.
My dealer had previously suggested an Aurender N100 when I purchased my most recent upgrade, but I had told them I wasn’t interested. Now I wanted to at least see what it could do. They arranged a demo with a system that was an exact match for mine. I brought in my laptop, cables, reclocker, and we listened to it for about 10 minutes. Then we switched to the Aurender to play the same songs. Honestly, I didn’t really expect much difference. If it sounded more or less as good, and I liked the control interface, I would buy it.
Well, another unexpected turn of events. After listening for about 15 seconds, I turned to my sales guy and said “You’ve got to be kidding - why does this sound so good?” Long story short, I bought it. Eventually, I upgraded to its big brother, the N10. It put a big hole in my checkbook, but from a sound quality perspective it was another easy call. I don’t know why these devices make a difference, but to me, at least, they do.
All of the high-zoot streamers sound just like the inexpensive ones, but if you add a $600 power cord to ANY of them it takes them to the next level. And, oh my, what an audipphile ethernet cable will do for them.
Still I don’t get any information except the possibility of strong cleaner signal possiblity.
First of all, I already get a scientific answer from ASR. He’s a measurement guy and I trust his call. Thing that he doesn’t like is about coloring aspect adds value. He is straight forward neutrality guy, and I respect that.
It seems some people are offended without ability to explain in any scientific explanation.
I will stop here.
I do not use streaming service for my serious listening. If Apple didn’t discontinue the product, I will consider air express. Still Node2i can do the same thing with little more future proof, like idagio streaming. I can’t find other streamer supports Airplay 2 and Idagio.
About tombaqui, I can simply get it. The thing is I happen to know that VA Beethoven is also pretty good with Auralic Vega. Cheap used one. And this combination was once used in Speaker demo at the show. When I can get things cheaper, I don’t want to pay more.
It’s non of your business, but I’m working for medical industry and travel to do something with this pandemic based on invitation, so once I get PCR tested, I get the clearance.
Again, and finally, there is not really measurable / scientific base that I learn from here to at least discuss with ASR. So far I try to find any measurement from manufacturers’ sites but no luck.
“I do not use streaming service for my serious listening”
@vinpic, you’ve nailed it with your post 👇
“You shops for ‘mid-range’ streamers between 8-30K (what is top of the range then?) using Mola Mola Tambaqui dac whilst not knowing that the Tambaqui has a built in streamer... and ask the classic ‘a bit is a bit, why should I spend more’ questions to get folks excited on audiogon. The whole story seems built on shaky grounds, probably to amuse you whilst listening to music on a basic mp3 setup”
I have a background in IT inc Networking for 45 years and technically like others have argued digital is just bits and bytes so as you are obviously a man of conviction and if it cannot be technically proven then you should not invest. BTW I hope you apply the same logic to Audio Routers, Audio Ethernet cables and Audio Power connections (note weeks of arguments with my sons who are both electricians).
My experiences are; - electrical just make sure you have good power into your hifi room (dedicated circuit is best) and good shielded cables, heavier than domestic plugs and power points (some hospital grade kit I find good), remembering 10A is what the components are rated, most except Power Amps typically don't pull 10A. - Network any Tier 1 router products and cabling (Cat6+) will do the job, its just about guaranteeing bandwidth, I also use Mesh Wifi 6, audio routers I just cannot make sense of ... - Streaming well I relied on my high end Laptop with a custom built USB cable and was happy for quite a while but had this nagging question on transports, brought some cheapy Yamaha Musicast devices, okay then upgraded to Node 2i's, i have 2 Grouped on separate systems and use them to fill my house with music and they are quite good, better sound than the Yamaha. For my main listening systems I have a range of sources which split on the output of the DAC to each system and a while back purchased a Lumin U1 Mini (cheaper in Hong Kong), I find a lot more detail in the music compared with my Laptop or Node 2i and have swapped them in and out. Don't know what they do inside the unit technically but I am sold and it produces a better sound than my Vinyl (Lp12 and RP8).
I tested multiple "steamers" but didn't scratch the surface as there are so many out there. In the end, I felt the DAC made the biggest difference. I tested several combos but it is really futile as there are soooo many.
In the end, I chose a Streamer that checked off boxes for every major streaming service and a cd ripper. (I still buy cds along with the vinyl pressing if possible) At some point though, I will try other steamers.. its just last on my list right now.
When you use a Node 2i, it does the streaming. You have a Bluesound app for managing your music and what you play over wifi, but you aren't streaming from your handheld device, so you don't degrade the sound with Bluetooth or Airplay. My Node 2i is connected to my 1 Gb fiber internet connection. I'm sure the Node 2i doesn't compare to streamers costing 10-15 times as much, but for the money, it provides excellent SQ.
It's quite simple in my mind as I waited really long before I got one.
Generally well made servers sound as good, or better than your decent CD transport in playback.
And a good server should make no difference in playback quality if the file is pulled from streaming, or is a CD rip placed in the servers internal SSD, or it's from your NAS drive.
Once you find and hear a server brand like that (and there are a few that I have heard - Grimm Audio and SGM Taiko come to mind) then you will know why these servers are dearer.
I am sure there are lots of other streamers that do well too, that I may have not come across.
f your connection to your DAC is coax or USB, then there is the potential for noise entry which can impact jitter which can impact sound.
If the entry is coax or fiber and the DAC is recovering timing info from the digital I/F that can be an issue.
The Node2i has a setting for jitter reduction that seems to makes things worse. Electrically noisy and coax out ... It's not a viable comparison point.
Goes isolated USB and pretty much every argument goes out the window. No jitter, no electrical noise.
Ignore people making comments using NOS DACs as they are highly dependent on the data rate they are fed so variability is understandable.
Take our electrical noise and jitter and what is left? Nothing, unless there is intentional manipulation of the data stream.
The trusty old Radio Shack sound meter does not have the resolution for level matching and take with a grain of salt that a dealer would properly level match which you never do with a sound meter you do with a test tone and a multimeter. However it's a digital stream. You should not have to level match at all ... Unless manipulation of the stream is happening.
As a recent subscriber to Audiogon and the world of the audiophile, I find this discussion on DACs very interesting. And also as someone with a limited budget it’s interesting to hear from people who run through various DACs seeking a ’better sound’ like they’re trying different brands of razor blades.
My questions may show my ignorance about DAC technology but they are thus: With limited access to audio showrooms how does one sample the qualities of different DACs without actually listening to them? Is there a ’DAC of the month’ rental club?
How far away are we from a ’variable’ DAC that, instead of ’bass, treble, balance’ controls you’d have ’instrument separation, nuance accentuation, etc’ for fine tuning your sound.
Speaking for myself, I recently purchased a Bluesound Node 2i and am thrilled with what I’m hearing.
Thanks for the followup. I now agree with you: ASR is your best source for what you are looking for.
If your objective function is the most provably well-measuring (by scientific devices, not your years) end result for cheapest dollars spent, that is a good path.
As long as that will make you happy, and the question of "well does it actually sound enjoyable to a human" is 2nd order of importance or maybe even irrelevant, you should be all set.
It seems like for a bunch of enthusiasts, no one really knows what they are talking about around here...
Allow me to provide a hint - anyone who thinks that AirPlay is "indistinguishable" from other methods of data delivery on a network has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. You should not listen to these people, they have no insight to offer, and your enjoyment of music will suffer as a result (I'm speaking as someone who listens to music. not gear).
To also slightly illuminate your awareness as to why purely rational, knowledgable individuals are willing to part with hard-earned cash to improve their listening experience in this particular arena, I offer the following sliver of technical analysis as to what is really happening with audio and streaming.
AirPlay is flawed because it is using kernel-layer audio processing on the device one is using to play back the audio. This alone means the signal itself is suspect as it may not be bit-perfect (and usually isn't). Not to mention, sample rate conversion on the device and in the player/playback software (which itself may be considered as a "component" in your digital audio system, much like a CD transport - it's just virtual so most pay no attention to it) can dramatically affect sound quality before it is delivered over the network to the endpoint. Sure, it works (meaning, the 1's and 0's sent by the device arrive at the endpoint intact as they were sent) but most have no idea of flaws in the playback software (application layer) they are using, let alone the fact that the device uses kernel audio post-software (so there are two competing processes at work).
This is why so many "audiophiles" use bit-perfect programs such as Audirvana on their Mac or PC (I also remember Amarra, and personally used programs such as this one when I was using a Windows machine to play digital music: https://sourceforge.net/p/playpcmwin/wiki/PlayPcmWinEn/)
The answer for the OP should be - please don't play music from your iPad at all. Use your iPad as a control point, not a playback device, and buy a computer or device that provides bit-perfect output to your DAC (or better yet, has a high-quality DAC built in). Those suggesting a Raspberry Pi are on the right track, but much of their reasoning is flawed (digital is digital).
As an analogy, very few in the digital video or imaging world would have any problem acknowledging the dramatic affects software processes (embedded or otherwise) can have on the final image results. The idea that audio is somehow different is simply ludicrous.
As you have discovered, you will get different opinions on ASR and Audiogon in response to your question about whether there is a point to buying a higher priced streamer.
Here on Agon, you have heard either that (1) all streamers should pretty much sound alike (so buy based on cost, features, and ease of use) or that (2) some streamers sound better than others and you should listen to enough of them to decide what sound differences matter to you. Most of the technical discussions about why streamers can sound different focus on issues of noise, jitter, memory buffers, and software implementation, and it is critical to recognize that existing methods for measuring equipment may not do a good job of evaluating differences in streamer sound quality.
On ASR, you have heard that streamers cannot sound different because they are digital devices that only process 1's and 0's. (For a differing opinion, check out Darko's discussion of this issue, if you haven't already.) The ASR approach is typically to measure first and then listen later (or even not at all), without making an honest attempt to overcome the confirmation bias of "sameness" for digital devices. ASR also makes assumptions about how small differences in noise or distortion can be used to judge the sound quality of equipment even in the absence of data to establish that correlation reliably (e.g., ranking DACs primarily on SINAD measurements).
If the ASR approach works for you, that's your decision to make, but it's not actually science-based because audio science does not yet have valid measurements for everything the human brain-ear can process. I would instead take the approach of many others on this thread and urge you to listen to different streamers and confirm whether you can hear any differences that matter to you. If you've already done enough listening and don't hear differences under similar conditions, then you can buy whatever inexpensive streamer is reliable and easy to use. Given the reasonably generous budget you describe, however, it would make sense to do a bit more comparative listening before wholeheartedly embracing the "flat-earth" opinions voiced by our friends at ASR.
Bet if you did a blind test, most people would buy the BlueSound Node2i. I added a DAC and had to sell it on Audiogon. The BlueSound sounded better on its own. I call it the Emperor's New Cloths syndrome. If you spend more, you convince yourself it sounds better. However, I am sure streamers costing $3000 to $5000 must sound better. How much better is the real question? Do they sound $2,500 to $4,500 better?
Most of the technical discussions about why streamers can sound different focus on issues of noise, jitter, memory buffers, and software implementation, and it is critical to recognize that existing methods for measuring equipment may not do a good job of evaluating differences in streamer sound quality.
I agree with this sentiment, I would also add that the final litmus test is (and must be) the listener, so for people to go on measuring things without listening to them, and somehow being able to extrapolate how the component will sound, is a futile approach.
However, I will say that there are absolutely no audio components I've personally owned which would not be able to withstand the scrutiny of detailed measurements, whatever those are worth. I've listened to plenty of components which were merely ho-hum and boring with no musical enjoyment, and upon inspecting these components' measured results, over time it wasn't surprising to find the pattern - components which measure well do tend to sound better than components which do not.
That being said, just because a component measures well, does not mean it will sound good in your particular application or environment. Too many audiophiles/enthusiasts pay little attention to synergy and integration between components (particularly the room). I laugh every time I see gigantic loudspeakers in rooms entirely too small to support them. The purpose of this pursuit is to enjoy music - the gear is a means to that end. I've listened to countless high end systems and the few that actually play music always stand out - and it's usually because an industry guru spent hours fine-tuning each and every detail in a methodical, logical manner.
As a tangent, next time someone is trying to convince you of a particular direction to take your audio system (i.e. sales person, reviewer, industry maven) I'd suggest asking that individual if they have ever spent any significant time either performing live music as a musician (surprisingly, many have) or has any experience with professional audio engineering (again, many have). In particular, an audio engineer should have some live music experience with sitting behind a mixing desk/console and running a live show (I know some recording guys who are deathly afraid of this which is why I mention it).
The reason I mention this is that the professional audio world tends to have a deeper knowledge of the inner workings of questions like this, which the consumer and "high-end" audio world tend to obfuscate and avoid. The answers are there for those willing to put in the time and the work; if you really want to learn, consider spending the money to obtain an AES membership and delve into the plethora of white papers which can "technically" describe what is happening under the hood with all of these various processes. Unfortunately, what I've seen is that most enthusiasts are simply not interested in this level of research and would prefer to regurgitate misleading or plain wrong information. It's not surprising to me when I've listened to the systems many of these types of folks assemble have absolutely no meaningful communication of the program material and instead represent some fanciful interpretation which seems to suck out the very soul of the music, leaving an anemic shell of a presentation.
Meandering back to the point I originally wished to make - when people provide blanket statements such as "digital is digital" or "as long as it achieves this and that measured spec, it will be fine" simply put their ignorance on display to those who actually know how to assemble a proper music playback system. If they wish to continue to enjoy piss-poor music quality while spending loads of cash on nonsensical ideas, it is their prerogative, but they disservice others wishing to enjoy music at a truly elevated level. I've seen it at each and every level of the HiFi industry, and I won't be surprised when many of the "me-too" brands fade over the next few years while the innovators and pole position brands continue to press ahead and leave others in the dust.
Quote larry5729 Bet if you did a blind test, most people would buy the BlueSound Node2i. I added a DAC and had to sell it on Audiogon. The BlueSound sounded better on its own. I call it the Emperor's New Cloths syndrome. If you spend more, you convince yourself it sounds better. However, I am sure streamers costing $3000 to $5000 must sound better. How much better is the real question? Do they sound $2,500 to $4,500 better?
—————
It’s called expectation bias. I saw a good friend show himself up in front of a room full of guys comparing his £6000 mains cable Vs a £3.50 kettle lead. The lad doing the switching had double bluffed. My mate was claiming “night & day, you’re all deaf”. Embarrassing.
Thing is, he’s never learned from that experience. He’s too emotionally invested. He believes reviews or anything a dealer tells him, but is oblivious to that real life lesson. Oh well, it’s his money.
It’s called expectation bias. I saw a good friend show himself up in front of a room full of guys comparing his £6000 mains cable Vs a £3.50 kettle lead. The lad doing the switching had double bluffed. My mate was claiming “night & day, you’re all deaf”. Embarrassing
I've experienced utter dismay on the part of cable salesmen when I've proven to them their product doesn't deliver. I've also been pleasantly surprised by actual improvements with very expensive, high end cables, but those experiences are rare and only happen when the entire system is thought out. I've also experienced expensive cables work well with certain components while sounding like total trash with others. Some products simply sound better with the manufacturer supplied leads - they engineered it that way after all.
It's possible your friend has heard such an improvement with this particular cable in his own system that he never bothered to consider it may not always provide such an improvement when used in a different scenario - and I wouldn't be surprised if it could very well sound/perform worse.
Too many of the high end power cables have issues connecting to mains supplies properly (I'm speaking of a proper grip with the connectors on the outlet itself) that it's pointless to upgrade the cable if you don't also upgrade the mains outlet to a receptacle that can support the type of "hospital grade" connectors many of those cables feature.
At the end of the day the guys who typically spend a lot on cables have either already maxed their respective budget with the rest of their system components and are having a bit of fun, are trying to compensate for a flaw present within the system because it wasn't set up properly to begin with, or have had an experience with someone who can properly demonstrate, implement, and prescribe the correct cable pairing for the application. The last is quite possibly a unicorn in this hobby!
Maybe I missed it, but one thing missing in a lot of streaming/ external DAC discussions is buffers. The data signal processing is not like a telegraph that goes straight from signal to output. The data is assembled in buffers, whether in a PC, Mac, Streamer, or DAC, and then fed to either the next buffer or the final internal processing within the unit. So the transfer is much closer to transferring a Word file, which USB can do all day without errors. This is not to say there aren't difference, but it makes the issue more puzzling. I just think we err in thinking of the data transfer as a finely tuned triple-play in baseball where timing is everything, and a pause is fatal.
Perhaps the issue is the resulting blackness of the background from which the music emerges. We can think we know black until we encounter blacker, so perhaps the noise is not distortion of signal but a graying of the background.
Larry this begs to know did u run the external dac from the node?
As discussed previously the node is a very poor digital transport compred to a dedicated high server lika an lumin innous 432 evo and you must run usb to get the Best out of a dac only usb ofers asyncronous data transfer which cits down on zransmittteed jitter
We are specialsts in this area we have sold and tested most brands of streamers
@paulcreed not sure what you mean with 'noisy', but, ime, some systems pick up noise originating from the MacBook wall wart power supply. Good conditioners (Furman, Shunyata in my case) reject this noise entirely. You can also run the MacBook for many hours of battery power alone (no audible difference in my case, but if that wall wart causes trouble ...) Of course you don't want any other applications like messaging, email etc. run on that macbook. Re soundstage: Roon seems to provide for perfect time domain control of the digital data stream, and, again, ime, imaging is superb. Somebody else here stated that they prefer wired ethernet connection over Wi-Fi. Again, I believe this depends on the quality of your home Wi-Fi system. Multi-channel mesh systems have very high capacity, no drop outs, etc. and, again, in my experience, streaming from a MacBook via Roon to an OPPO 205, with the MacBook receiving signal via WiFi and sending signal to the OPPO via WiFi, sounds superior to any variation of one or both digital connections by ethernet cable. In the end, Ethernet cables are not that well shielded and you would expect some RFI/EMI contamination of the unit they are connected too, but that is speculation on my side. WiFi of course provides for complete electrical isolation.
you must run usb to get the Best out of a dac only usb ofers asyncronous data transfer which cits down on zransmittteed jitter
Actually this is not entirely true. While most do, some DACs do not use Asynchronous USB, but isosynchronous; also not all DACs sound better from a USB connection depending on how the grounding and power rails for the USB interface have been implemented with the rest of the DAC board, not to mention variations in the source of the USB stream.
There are plenty of DACs with SPDIF/BNC/AES inputs, which when matched with a properly clocked (low-jitter) SPDIF output, will perform better with the same files compared to a USB delivery. It really depends on the DAC and application.
@ironlung I for one am enjoying your posts and learning quite a bit. Thank you.
Great to hear. There's just so much confusion about all of this stuff I finally decided to try to do my part to elucidate some of the nuances involved.
@arafiq Apologies accepted. In my experience, there aren't too many folks posting around on forums capable of answering the kind of questions OP posted, so I would hope my content differs wildly from the opinions of others who have tried and failed.
This may have been mentioned; I didn't see it in this thread. Adding a streamer means that music is no longer coming from your iPad. You would sign into streaming services (Qobuz, Spotify, Tidal) on the streamer, music is sent directly to the streamer from the Internet, and an iPhone/iPad/Web browser on a computer is used only to control the streamer. The
iPhone/iPad/Web browser on a computer is not the source of your streamed music.
I recently got a Pro-ject Stream Box Ultra S2 at $850 instead of streaming from an iPhone or computer. I considered the Bluesound Node 2i, but read enough reviews and forum postings to think that the Pro-ject might sound better. So I took a shortcut by not directly comparing both streamers. Short answer from me about whether a streamer is worth it is that I was astounded at how good a cheap Dragonfly Red could sound with the Pro-ject streamer versus an iPhone or computer as the source. Same held true for a Denafrips Ares II DAC.
A thought that I had about not starting off with an expensive streamer is to figure out how well optimizing other parts of the signal path might compare to a more expensive streamer. I think these optimizations that I find could also improve a more expensive streamer so I don't think the cost of doing these experiments will be money wasted. If not, I haven't spent $thousands to do these experiments. My null hypothesis is that these optimizations will make no difference to the sound and my personal hope is that cheaper solutions are just as good as more expensive one (USB cables, Using Ethernet rather than WiFi, Ethernet switch to reclock the signal, etc.) The parts of my signal path that MIGHT make a difference and which I will experiment on are:
1. USB Cable to DAC: - Result of this experiment: Generic HP printer USB-A to USB-B cable sounds like crap (Sound feels shut-in and veiled. Trailing edge of notes have an overhang. Treble is a bit harsh, Bass sounds tubby), Belkin Gold USB cable
($12)
sounded okay, Pangea USB cable ($50) had better resolution but was a bit harsh. Shunyata Venom cable ($100-200) was better overall and unfortunately a $250 Phasure Lush cable sounded best of all (most detailed and articulate, but also very pleasant in tone quality). I'm sold on the effect of spending a bit more on a USB cable. 2. USB Noise filter (Added an Audioquest Jitterbug noise filter on the USB output): I found out about this inadvertently. I had a Jitterbug on hand and thought 'what the h@ll', just plug it in and see what happens. What a surprise. Same DACs (Dragonfly Red & Denafrips Ares II both sounded more 3-dimensional with better resolution, more evident tonal colors , more reverb & presence around voices and instruments. A significant improvement from a $60 device. 3. Use Ethernet cable instead of WiFi, turn off WiFi on streamer (I needed to get a network extender to create an Ethernet access point & also get an Ethernet cable to do this) - Results TBD, total cost of TP-Link network extender and generic Amazon Cat 6 Ethernet cable was about $45 4. Switching from a generic Ethernet cable to a better Cat 8 Ethernet cable - Results TBD, cost was a Supra Cat 8 cable that I got for $60 5. Better power supply: Apparently the Pro-ject is reported to have better clean power so I'm choosing not to bother with this step. That was one of the advantages that I saw in getting the Pro-ject. 6. Ethernet switch: Using an Ethernet switch to reclock the Ethernet signal (i.e. Uptone Audio EtherRegen): A friend has one that I might borrow
How I'm testing: Do I hear a difference initially? How do I feel about the change when listening casually over a period of time? Does my 15 y.o. son hear a benefit? (He doesn't care so much about audio but seems to have good hearing). I figure things that make a difference only when listening casually and also don't engage my interest when listening over time aren't worth the money.
Oh, one thing that I've heard that tells me there are improvements to be had with my current streaming setup. Listening to local music files on a USB memory stick attached directly to the Pro-ject streamer sounds smoother, clearer and with better musical flow than the same track via Qobuz. I figure that the shorter signal path might have less opportunity to be affected by outside noise.
Listening to local music files on a USB memory stick attached directly to the Pro-ject streamer sounds smoother, clearer and with better musical flow than the same track via Qobuz.
If the files are actually the same, then this is likely due to the chipset implementation being used on the ethernet/LAN side, particularly in the final processing stages before the packets are delivered to the memory buffer.
However it's also possible that the provenance of the files on your USB flash media are closer to the original (or just better sounding) master. It may not have anything to do with the chipset implementation at all.
Could be none of the above. Unless the two were compared with a controlled blind test it doesn't tell us anything. To me Quboz sounds better than a flash drive connected to the streamer, again unless I did this comparison blind it tells us nothing to further our knowledge.
🙄🙄. And the I.D. 10T error strikes again. No one is allowed to post any impressions or explanation on anything, unless backed by “a controlled blind test”. Oh please, give it a break
@thyname — don’t you understand audio is not about music or ‘what you hear’. It’s all about measurements and double blind tests, paper tigers, and graph gremlins. The actual act of listening is not only unnecessary, it’s highly overrated.
Yeah... bottom feeders like our friend here, who has zero confidence on his ears, and gets a hard on every time he stares at a graph other people post online 🙄
Professing substantial differences in SQ based on, wow I heard veils lifted, only applies to one person who claims to have heard something without any meaningful attempt to control biases. Now pray tell what does that actually contribute to understanding if one streamer performs better than another? Why would I base a purchase decision on hyperbole and cost? Listening with your ears is necessary, listening with your eyes and preconceptions about if it costs more it must be better is unnecessary.
Could be none of the above. Unless the two were compared with a controlled blind test it doesn't tell us anything. To me Quboz sounds better than a flash drive connected to the streamer, again unless I did this comparison blind it tells us nothing to further our knowledge.
Please explain exactly what you mean by "controlled blind test" and how one would be able to adequately make such a comparison using a file streamed from Qobuz, versus a file on a USB flash memory.
Unless you can prove the files are identical using a checksum hash such a comparison is actually impossible. I don't think you've thought this through much.
Listening to local music files on a USB memory stick attached directly to the Pro-ject streamer sounds smoother, clearer and with better musical flow than the same track via Qobuz.
Because we have to first determine is this statement true? The only way I know of is can he pick which is which better than chance?
We're not comparing apples to apples we're trying decide can this person really tell one from the other then we can go on to figure out is it due to hardware? Software?
This is a great thread. Thanks everyone for posting their opinions. I want to move up a level to something with a power supply as I’ve read that makes a big difference.
I’m using a Nobsound USB to SPDIF Converter XMOS XU20 with no power supply, connected to my Android and to my Classe processors DAC through a 75 ohm dig cable(I know it aint 75 ohm though). It sounds pretty good as my Classe’s DAC is 24/192 and it gets Bit Perfect through UAPP but I bet there is a step up with a power source. But there aren’t many "inexpensive" options where I can use my phone as the controller.
To the thoughtful posts on power cables, it is incredible how expensive some of them are. I respect Shunyata but can a $6000 Omega mains sound $4000 better than a $2000 Vertere Acoustic HB mains?
My main DAC today is a Matrix Mini-i 3 Pro. I sold my Benchmark DAC3B today. I hope to buy a much more expensive DAC in the Spring. So tonight I thought I would do a few streaming tests.
The Matrix is rather incredible in terms of connectivity. However, at the moment the Matrix Mini DAC is not ROON READY via the Ethernet RJ45 streaming input (Matrix is working on it with ROON). You can setup Apple AirPlay2 on the ROON Server and also the DAC to play music from ROON via an iPhone. In this setup, the Airplay2 protocol uses the DAC’s Ethernet RJ45 input to stream data. I also have an Sonore microRendu that has been my only streamer for the last 5 years with various DACs. I love the microRendu connected to a DAC’s USB input.
So tonight I tested Muddy Waters - Hard Again album with both ROON zones, AirPlay2 and the microRendu. The AirPlay2 sounded a lot more lively so I was shocked by that. I thought there was something funny going on. I turned my iPhones SPL meter and found that the AirPlay2 was 10 db louder than the microRendu. Likely something in the iPhone settings.
I made an adjust on the SPL level when streaming via the microRendu. This is pretty easy with my Benchmark HPA4 which has an incredibly precise volume control. I then compared the Mannish Boy track again and I could not tell a difference. That was also very surprising. I was not expecting the AirPlay2 to sound so close sonically to the microRendu. My DAC is a brand new model released in 2020 and has some great tech in it (for $899). So maybe streaming has gotten much more reliable these days.
Once the DAC is made ROON READY I will create another ROON Server zone for the Ethernet RJ45 (might have to remove the AirPlay2 zone). I will compare that with the microRendu and if possible AirPlay2. I am rather shocked by what I heard today.
But there aren’t many "inexpensive" options where I can use my phone as the controller.
Actually, there are quite a few. If you do a little research you'll find there are a lot of apps for Android or iPhone which offer the ability to use a phone or tablet to act as a control point for software residing on a Windows PC, Mac, or Linux machine. For example, there are a number of different UPnP servers/media software (many are free and/or cheap) which you can access with programs like Bubble DS, Plug Player (not sure if that is still around), etc. to control a simple web-browser based media player.
They have Android versions of the App and you can use a number of player software (JRiver, foobar, AIMP, Winamp).
You don't need anything particularly powerful for this type of application, a pretty basic PC will work just fine and with the right player software will likely sound quite a bit better using your USB>SPDIF convertor.
I'd guess one could put something like this together for less than $200 if being savvy and patient to find the right stuff.
To top it off you can then also install whatever streaming service's app you happen to like (or want to try) - like Spotify, Tidal, or Qobuz - and control the app on the PC from the service's phone app as well (most seem to be doing this nowadays).
To the thoughtful posts on power cables, it is incredible how expensive some of them are. I respect Shunyata but can a $6000 Omega mains sound $4000 better than a $2000 Vertere Acoustic HB mains?
When you put it in those terms, not really. But if $4,000 is a drop in the bucket for you, and you have the inclination to spend a lot of money on HiFi, I'm sure there are plenty of people who can convince others that the difference is worth the extra $4K
The issue I find with the expensive cables is that only some of them offer synergy and improvement with certain equipment while sometimes actually detracting from the performance of certain other gear.
And to make things more complicated. if one is considering a $6,000 Shunyata mains lead, one is doing themselves a disservice by not evaluating Transparent, Nordost, AQ, Cardas, Kubala-Sosna, Chord, Furutech, MIT, or any other number of high quality brands I've failed to include on that list - and evaluating those next to their supplied leads or OEM offerings from quality suppliers like Volex.
I was not expecting the AirPlay2 to sound so close sonically to the microRendu.
@yyzsantabarbara
If you are using USB from a microRendu into a USB DAC, the DAC is treating the data differently than through a network connection.
The technical reasons for this will make most people's eyes bleed but in a nutshell the protocol(s) being used to deliver the stream data are quite a bit different under the hood.
AirPlay2 and Roon endpoints are essentially "capturing" real-time playback occurring on an auxiliary device over the network.
In this scenario what you are comparing is the Matrix DAC's ability to "capture" an AirPlay2 stream from the network and deliver it directly to the DAC circuit, to the Sonore's ability to "capture" the same stream (assuming from AirPlay2, or Roon, it wasn't exactly clear) from the network and convert it to a USB digital stream for use by the USB input on the DAC.
Looking at it in this light you can see there is an additional process in the signal path using the Sonore microRendu which is unnecessary if Matrix audio have done their job correctly on the network side. It's likely why you are surprised at the similar fidelity.
@ironlung I get what you are saying and the is also what i was thinking was going on under the hood. That 10db difference is another matter but not really a concern. BTW - I was streaming to the Rendu via ROON RAAT.
I am now seeing a Network DAC input as the short term future for me. My current DAC can use the Ethernet, my next DAC needs the Ethernet for the best sound (the AudioByte HUB component). Unless I get the Benchmark DAC3B again the microRendu is going to sit idle.
My hope for the longer term is that DACs get a Fibre optical input like the $15K Lumin X1. That way a direct fibre wire from an Network switch to a ROON READY DAC.
I am not sure if WiFi is also a contender for this. Other that Aurelic no one else is pushing Wifi. I have rock solid Wifi but have not really tested it out. The Matrix does support Wifi but I need ROON READY certification for that to work. So I will try this one day soon.
I am not sure if WiFi is also a contender for this. Other that Aurelic no one else is pushing Wifi.
WiFi should only be used when absolutely necessary. I know there are Auralic guys who claim the WiFi input on their streamers is the better connection to make to the network, but I think if that's the case then the ethernet implementation must be poor.
WiFi is totally fine to use for the control point but in terms of connection between the server (Roon Core) and the client (Roon RAAT/Ready device) the connection should be hardwired with sufficient detail paid to the rest of the network to minimize possible conflicts/bottlenecks.
There may be people with minimal networks and a robust enough WiFi connection that Roon will work over a wireless connection to an endpoint, but my guess is most people using Roon are hardwired ethernet.
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