My main DAC today is a Matrix Mini-i 3 Pro. I sold my Benchmark DAC3B today. I hope to buy a much more expensive DAC in the Spring. So tonight I thought I would do a few streaming tests.
The Matrix is rather incredible in terms of connectivity. However, at the moment the Matrix Mini DAC is not ROON READY via the Ethernet RJ45 streaming input (Matrix is working on it with ROON). You can setup Apple AirPlay2 on the ROON Server and also the DAC to play music from ROON via an iPhone. In this setup, the Airplay2 protocol uses the DAC’s Ethernet RJ45 input to stream data. I also have an Sonore microRendu that has been my only streamer for the last 5 years with various DACs. I love the microRendu connected to a DAC’s USB input.
So tonight I tested Muddy Waters - Hard Again album with both ROON zones, AirPlay2 and the microRendu. The AirPlay2 sounded a lot more lively so I was shocked by that. I thought there was something funny going on. I turned my iPhones SPL meter and found that the AirPlay2 was 10 db louder than the microRendu. Likely something in the iPhone settings.
I made an adjust on the SPL level when streaming via the microRendu. This is pretty easy with my Benchmark HPA4 which has an incredibly precise volume control. I then compared the Mannish Boy track again and I could not tell a difference. That was also very surprising. I was not expecting the AirPlay2 to sound so close sonically to the microRendu. My DAC is a brand new model released in 2020 and has some great tech in it (for $899). So maybe streaming has gotten much more reliable these days.
Once the DAC is made ROON READY I will create another ROON Server zone for the Ethernet RJ45 (might have to remove the AirPlay2 zone). I will compare that with the microRendu and if possible AirPlay2. I am rather shocked by what I heard today.
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@ironlung I get what you are saying and the is also what i was thinking was going on under the hood. That 10db difference is another matter but not really a concern. BTW - I was streaming to the Rendu via ROON RAAT.
I am now seeing a Network DAC input as the short term future for me. My current DAC can use the Ethernet, my next DAC needs the Ethernet for the best sound (the AudioByte HUB component). Unless I get the Benchmark DAC3B again the microRendu is going to sit idle.
My hope for the longer term is that DACs get a Fibre optical input like the $15K Lumin X1. That way a direct fibre wire from an Network switch to a ROON READY DAC.
I am not sure if WiFi is also a contender for this. Other that Aurelic no one else is pushing Wifi. I have rock solid Wifi but have not really tested it out. The Matrix does support Wifi but I need ROON READY certification for that to work. So I will try this one day soon. |
@ironlung Great info on ROON. I did not realize that RAAT was UDP. Anyways, I do have my ROON Core setup wired as you described.
Now that I am using ROONS's Convolution engine the usefulness of ROON is through the roof for me. ROON really delivered on what they promised 5 years ago. I bought a lifetime license for $450 back then. |
I think the comment that ROON RAAT is using UDP is rather important here. Back in the day when I was programming Tibco RV messaging we used UDP for broadcast messages in one part of the system and I recall it was unreliable. It did not have to be reliable in that instance because it was just for a debug dashboard and the next broadcast would update accordingly. So packets could be dropped and I was OK with that.
I will get out my bottle of Double Black Johnnie Walker (found it at Costco) pour some juice and get my head around some of this tech we are talking about. I have nothing to do on Boxing day.
Interesting discussion on this thread. Merry Christmas to all. |
@rhg88 This streamer thread has diverged to room correction. However, I am in total agreement with you on the room correct issue. I have an acoustically treated room and my software based room Digital Room Correction is very important piece in my system equation. I have perfect sound now in a really tiny crappy room with big speakers. That altered digital stream of DRC bits from my ROON Server is sent via my streamer, a microRendu, to the USB input of my DAC. I think the content inside that stream is way more important than how it gets to my DAC. Why do I say that? Well, I just go into my ROON Server and toggle the switch to add DRC to the stream. When DRC is turned on the sound is glorious when it is turned off the room dominates with problems. The quality of my stream (subject of this thread) is a much lower concern until my room was dealt with. BTW - I actually do not need to use the physical room acoustic treatments with the software DRC I am using. I kept them because I already had them in place before I did the software based DRC. My DRC runs on ROON Server. More info on what I did is here. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/room-correction-roon-rew-room-eq-wizard?highlight=Room%2BCorr... |
I should add that one way that I am thinking of improving my streaming quality, now that I have the room tamed, is using Fibre Optical cable. One way that streaming can degrade in quality is when analog noise goes from Ethernet to the DAC. My microRendu should have this issue, though I don't know if that is the case since I have not compared anything "better". My understanding is that Fibre Optical cable (I do not mean Toslink) cannot carry analog noise from the 1's and 0's being transferred on the Ethernet wire. The cleanest solution to this that I know is the Lumin X1 DAC which has a Fibre Optical input. You get a network switch like this, https://www.ui.com/unifi-switching/unifi-switch-8-150w/ ($200) and connect a Fibre Optical cable ($50) between the 2. Likely the best streaming quality you can achieve. Unfortunately the Lumin X1 is $15K. However, if what I am saying is not BS (I have not tested this myself yet) then I expect more DAC manufacturers to have this as an input. If they can have I2S as an input why not Fibre. I emailed Alvin of Vinshine (Denafrips) about this (and other topics) and he said they were aware of Fibre's benefits but it is not the highest priority at the moment. |
Can we list some LPS for the streamers. I am ready to buy ne today if I can get a list streamers to consider. Something for the microRendu would be ideal but for this thread any LPS. Allo Shanti - https://allo.com/sparky/shanti.html |
How about streaming content with a video source. I think they drop packets if there is a problem in the transmission. However, dropped packets are just part of the the streaming quality issue. Actually not a big deal for me and I do not think this a big deal for most people. I am more interested in the issue of electrical noise that people bring up as a cause of a lot of problems in the streaming chain.
A couple of posts above are saying that a Fibre optical cable is less of a benefit than an LPS on the streamer. Heck even ASR is saying that and they are only about measurements. |
Some good info here on streaming. https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/how-to-optimize-digital-streaming-with-optical-fiberI broke down and bought the UltraCap LPS 1.2 based on the comments here and the ASR links posted here. Let me see now if that was money well spent. https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1-2?variant=6075727314979
The LPS-1.2 is a single output, 1.1-amp linear power supply intended for powering a wide range of audio and computer devices. Examples include: UpTone's own ISO REGEN, the Sonore microRendu and ultraRendu, SOtM streamers, small DACs and headphone amps, USB>S/PDIF converters, specialty computer USB cards, SSDs, fibre media converters, PS Audio LANRover, SqueezeBox Touch, etc.
I was about to get the EtherREGEN but held off. I want to do a bit more research on this one to see if it worthwhile sound wise. I also want to see if it is possible to output from the EtherREGEN to multiple DACs or streamers in my system. I will have a Rendu streamer into 1 USB DAC and an Ethernet stream input with another DAC. Both connected to my preamp at the same time. |
No this will not work for me because I have 2 (maybe 3 DACs) that will be hooked up at the same time. The microRendu will be hooked up to 1 and an RJ45 will be the input on the second DAC.
For my situation something like the Denafrips Giaa maybe better though I am not getting any of these things until I check out the stock streaming quality.
The 2 DACs I hope to get are the AudioByte Hydra stack, which has the new HUB piece with RJ45 streaming input (some amazing tech on this stack). The other DAC is the Halo May KTE which is supposed to have a great USB input. I will also have the Benchmark DAC3B back but likely on my headphone rig unless I like it best. |
Sure, though it looks like February when they will ship to me. It is easy to tell improvements and deficiencies with my new system.
I was intrigued by the fact that ASR web site gave some measurements advocating a LPS for the microRendu. Seems like a lot of folks already knew that from the posts I read subsequently. I did not follow streaming too much after I had the microRendu working (and reliably) with my rig. I would have saved some money if I did not read this thread.
I was also looking into the EtherREGEN (again) from UpTone Audio but it seems controversial and it is also not idea for my situation where I hope in 2021 to have 2 killer DACs hooked to my preamp. I would be doing the EtherREGEN's B > A data flow and that is said to be sub-optimal. No need to speed money if I cannot use the best performance. |
A LPS seems to be a popular choice for he Rendu’s, especially over the stock PS. I have now bought it and will give it a go. Unfortunately, they are out of supply until February. Once reason that I am doing this today and not it in the past, is that today my system will allow me to hear the improvements, if any exist. Here is some very useful info from UpTone Audio on using the UltraCap LPS 1.2 with a microRendu. Thank you you for your interest in our groundbreaking UltraCap LPS-1.2 linear power supply.
Yes, it absolutely works with the Sonore microRendu (also designed by my partner John Swenson). Just set the LPS-1.2 to 7 volts.
There is a special situation unique to the LPS-1.2/microRendu combination:
The Sonore microRendu is the only component we know of that is not tolerant of the final 10 millisecond ramp time of the UltraCap LPS-1.2’s LT3045 output regulators. When the LPS-1.2 boots to green and turns on its output, there is that very short ramp (it does not go from zero volts to 7V instantly).The microRendu will not boot properly if it gets its power following the ramp.
All you need to do is to power on the LPS-1.2, wait until it gets to green, and then connect the DC output cable to the microRendu (does not matter which end was disconnected, whichever is more convenient for you).
This issue does not exist with the ultraRendu, nor with the original LPS-1. It is only the microRendu/LPS-1.2 combo. Minor inconvenience. We recommend you leave the UltraCap LPS-1.2 and microRendu on 24/7 anyway.
This bug is not an issue for me. Getting a EtherREGEN is a question for the future when I buy my next DACs. If anyone is interested here is the EtherREGEN’s designers comment to my use case. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/?do=fin... |
