Hello, Assuming I have separate DAC, and I just want to play songs from iPad by Airplay feature. In this case, I need a streamer to receive music from my iPad -> DAC.
What’s the point of high price streamer? I’m bit surprised that some streamers are very high priced. From my understanding, there should be no sound quality difference. (Streaming reliability and build quality, I can see it but I do not see advantages in terms of sound quality.)
Am I missing something? If so, please share some wisdom.
jc51373343 posts01-12-2021 7:33pmI
didn't feel like reading through the volleyball match of one-sided
opinions on this entire thread, so maybe you mentioned it. What DAC do
you have? I mean, I'd say yeah it won't make a huge impact on a lower
end DAC, but it's a FACT a streamer makes a size-able, audible, not so
subtle difference in higher end systems with a DAC that's able to
respond to a more pure source.
Of course this makes little sense at all and the opposite is actually true. A high end DAC (in most cases) is designed to mitigate external sources of electrical noise, and if an optical/co-ax connection, jitter. What exact is "pure" anyway. It is pretty much guaranteed it will be bit perfect unless the streamer intentionally modifies the data stream. So at that point you have noise and jitter. Expensive DACs "should" deal with that far better than a cheaper DAC.
What not so funny is these types of folks mastering the art of trolling, and starting the flame wars by “asking a question”, or “trying to understand”, or “learning”.
The OP is long gone. He said he joined ASR for advice. In fact, I am pretty sure he did not intend to gather any advice here. More like throwing a grenade and enabling various snake oil screechers, including the biggest of them all, the guy who keeps coming back over and over with different usernames, after being banned at least five times.
I didn't feel like reading through the volleyball match of one-sided opinions on this entire thread, so maybe you mentioned it. What DAC do you have? I mean, I'd say yeah it won't make a huge impact on a lower end DAC, but it's a FACT a streamer makes a size-able, audible, not so subtle difference in higher end systems with a DAC that's able to respond to a more pure source.
The way you need to look at this is simple...Back in the day, did a shitty TEAC CD player sound better than a high end CD Player? Just replace CD player with Streamer and you have your answer. The DAC in the Node 2i, would qualify as a very low end DAC. In HiFi terms anyway.
i wouldn’t pay attention to this clown ’divertiti’ -- he on his high horse pointing out racism
30 years of trading high end gear, this d-bag is 1 of 2 people who burned me, selling me a badly modded/malfunctioning don sachs preamp... then wouldn’t step up and reverse the sale when called out - i needed don sachs to help me out and fix the damn thing ... took me 3 months of back and forth, 2 volume boards, to get it back to stock condition and working right
i am over it, some people are just dishonorable, and trading used gear once in a blue moon you run into someone like this... but just the same, i don’t forget
bad character and hypocrisy comes in all sizes shapes races
Just as I predicted, any criticism of Chinese business practices is being equated with racism. There was nothing in my posts that attacked the social, ethnic, or cultural aspects of China. But the fact remains that the brazen theft of intellectual property and trade secrets, currency manipulation, illegal dumping, lopsided trade policies that create an unequal playing field for foreign companies operating in China, etc. has had a devastating impact on local economies, especially the smaller companies who thrive on innovation and R&D.
So yeah, if the companies in Sweden, Denmark or Finland start stealing IP, flooding the market with clones or fakes, while their governments not only look the other way but encourage such practices, we will have no problem calling them out as well.
Has anyone replaced Squeezebox Touch with another streamer and noticed a big sound difference with same DAC? If so what replaced it and what was the difference?
@arafiq You are the one drawing the false equivalence. No one is getting up in arms when a piece of equipment is criticized for its own merits, but people like you and others in this thread insist on grouping all products from a country and an ethnicity of people under a single generalized term to denigrate with the broadest disparaging brush. That is the type of racial prejudice others might take issue with. It's like calling all American cars trash, but maybe you agree with that too. Again, there is no problem if the discussion is on the performance of a product or a brand.
As a country, you are correct @unsound , but "Han Chinese" which is a distinct ethnicity (race), is both the dominant ethnicity in China, 91%, and also the people most associated with "Chinese".
@thyname, thank you for being true to who you are and having the decency to broadcast your racist roots. It makes it much easier for the rest of us to know how to treat you.
"
Do you think that companies such as aurender or innous or 432 Evo
could succesfully sell and market an entire line of servers if there was
no sonic improvement between models which are more expensive from one
another?
" No doubt about it. You can sort of pretend w analog but digital - if the ones & zeroes get thru, thats all there is.
To clarify, chi-fi meant China Audio devices. As in audio stuff made in China, from Chinese “companies” reverse engineering stuff made in US, Europe, and Japan. Theft of intellectual property in a nutshell. Like pretty much with everything in world, not just audio. Call it racist, I don’t give a flying f+😍😍. It’s the truth. Coupled with a full blown marketing campaign using the troll factory imports & Google searches, then we have what we have here.
And I am pretty sure you will read this before it’s been deleted @atdavid, since you are a full time troll: I am very close to finding you, and will meet you in person soon. Next time you are in NY 😂😉
Audio2Design (AtDavid, Dannad, headaudio, Roberttdid, etc) —- same person —- is a Troll. Direct import from St. Petersburg troll factory. Change my mind 😉
This thread is pretty typical. Here’s what happens: Somebody posts a question about whether “size really matters.” Then a bunch of other people weigh in. Before long, somebody shows up to lecture everyone about how he or she is the authority and proves it by saying something like “volume times mass does not result in velocity necessary for total accuracy.” Occasionally, somebody will opine some cliche, like, “It aint the meat, it’s the motion.” Then it gets really heated, shots are fired and everyone moves on. Meanwhile, real players have all the fun. ;-)
The post in which the term "chi-fi" was introduced was racist. The lack of maturity some illustrate in this thread is disturbing. Some people act more like school yard bullies than adults.
I only discuss high fi as in high fidelity not tube distortion generators or NOS crap DACs those are lo fi. High fidelity is to reproduce the signal as close to the original recording as possible not add coloration. I don’t care what the cost is if the component can come closer to high fi not the over priced junk most here babble about. Yes "ch-fi" is used in a derogatory way and you know it.
The term "chi-fi" is racist. The US has some high end and low end companies but some of the leading edge in modern audio technology is coming from Europe. I guess "Swede-fi" "fin-fi"or "Dane-fi" doesn’t roll off the tongue the same ?
@thyname -- and let’s not forget the ’racism’ tactic. A false moral equivalency has been created between any criticism of chi-fi and outright racism against China. So basically, if you point out any deficiencies in the chifi products, first you will be beaten with the ’measurement’ stick and if that doesn’t work, you will be proclaimed a racist to shut you up!
So enjoy the products made by luminaries like Nelson Pass and John Curl while they last. Once the notion of ’planned obsolescence’ takes root in high end audio, you can forget about pushing the envelope, craftsmanship, longevity and pride in ownership. You’ll be lucky if your component will last beyond 5 years, but hey at least they will have perfect measurements, right?
Hey @clifffff : to answer your question: since the chi-fi peddlers and paid advertisers started flooding ALL audio forums, posting under the disguise of science and “scientific measurements”. In the name of science. Objective is clear: bury the domestic audio industry to the ground, until every single person buys a chi-fi device. Just look at the attack in the name of measurements to low cost US based manufacturers like Schiit Audio.
After all, it’s really cheap to hire dime a dozen trolls from the troll factory.
So when Audio2Design posts a bazillion of posts here (and over 10,000 posts previously under the 4-5 now banned usernames), he is actually working, that’s his job.
Oh... and I know how this @rhg88 fake show is going to end: he will eventually “buy” a chi-fi DAC, likely a Topping or Matrix touted by the “science” ASR peddlers, feed it with a CCA, and prove it to everyone it’s the best ever audio since kingdom come
Much of the criticism comes from following statement you’ve posted without even having the opportunity to actually listen the CC and any comparison with high priced streamers in your own system,
“it will outperform many higher-priced streamers and it will be hard to beat, at least from the performance measuring perspective.”
Good luck with your journey into digital. “Music that doesn’t stir emotions is just Noise”
who reports on an actual a/b listening comparison between a Chromecast Audio with Toslink, MicroRendu and USB direct from Nucleus into a Hugo 2. It seems to support AS's assertion that "Usinga well-designed Dac like the Topping D50, there is no difference at all between Toslink from Chromecast or higher fidelity sources. All the jitter is filtered out resulting in the performance of the DAC itself being the limit."
Ok, I did the comparison. I have compared Chromecast Audio with Toslink, MicroRendu and USB direct from Nucleus into a Hugo 2. I listened with headphones, the Audeze LCD-4z.
I found no differences with 96k content or with 44k content. In fact, when using the remote to switch source on the Hugo, it switched instantaneously when going to USB (took about a second to lock onto optical), and once I had the album synced well enough that I heard no interruption or change, I had to check the color of the indicator light on the Hugo to see that I did in fact switch. That is impressive with a $35 device.
One caveat: I did notice a bit of harshness on an EST track — the piano is a bit harsh and jangly on the beginning of Dodge the Dodo, obviously intentional because it is perfectly smooth at other points in the track, but I thought the CC made it extra harsh. Which might indicate that it has trouble with the complex high frequency tones of an abused piano. I could investigate more. And I never noticed it elsewhere.
But note that I did hear differences yesterday with the Bel Canto DAC 3, which is a fairly old device (about 2010, I guess). So this supports my standard theory that the importance of the quality of a producer depends on the sensitivity of the consumer, and the Hugo 2 is very new and brilliant..."
Also, please note that my purchase of the CA is primarily intended to test whether I will like the features of Roon and to allow me to use Roon in the meantime on whatever DAC/streamer system I finally decide to purchase/audition, since many new devices are not yet Roon certified.
BTW, can you please tone down the volume of insults and denigrations?
Keyboard type? Look in the mirror. You have here over 10,000 posts under five usernames. In just over one year. Who is the keyboard warrior? One day, I will find out who you really are. I am very close. I have a very good idea based on your activity here, and in Facebook groups. Even if they ban this username, pretty sure you will come back here, it will be easy to spot. I promise you will have a “blast” when we meet.
As I said, be a man, and meet me face to face. Let’s solve this once and for all like real people and not like dysfunctional keyboard warrior.
You called me with my real life name four of your usernames ago, and today you just told me you know where I live. So, don’t be a creepy whimper, show me your face, and let’s meet in person.
Lol! this thread is continuing to get funnier by the post. Here's someone who has 'actually' owned and listened to chromecast and compared it with other streamers, but guys who have only read reviews and looked at measurements continue to insist that actual listening experience does not matter. Have at it!
The MicroRendu with the iFi power supply is an absolute disaster. Truly horrible. Hard to imagine how poor the design is to result in that poor of result.
And here you are defending it @thyname. There is no need to hear a Microrendu with the iFi power supply personally to recognize that is really bad. If someone defends that result, one can only assume they are more interested in defending dogma than in audio.
@rhg88 just provided the links. What he has or does not have in no way negates that the MicroRendu with the iFi power supply is a seriously flawed implementation.
LOL!! Actual facts? He just ordered it. He does not own it yet. So let me understand this, he said the below based on some writing on the Internets, with no actual hands on experience whatsoever of either Chromecast Audio, or “High Priced Streamers”?
——— if connected via optical to a "decent" high performing DAC (e.g. Topping D50), it will outperform many higher-priced streamers ——-
Holy crap AtDavid! And you hold yourself as the The Special One around here
Apple only supports 44.1/16 max for music and what I remember, the earlier ones (and I think the one you were using is quite old) resampled everything to 48KHz with questionable math accuracy.
No mention in your posts of actually using a Chromecast, just some interest in it, but the DACs you have listed using I don't remember being well known for jitter reduction. Chromecast had high jitter on optical out and optical is more jittery in general.
I believe you just discovered recently a setting in the Node2i that fixes a known issue (I had same problem) and you use it in your headphone system, so have you truly done a 1:1 level matched comparison?
When people say they have "compared" things, there is more than going off memory. You need to actually do a 1:1 level comparison somewhat coincident in time. Most of your comparative examples are "troubled" and are you using your new unit in USB mode?
LOL!!! This is very funny. I totally missed this part. Hilarious! Especially if “backed” by the world famous & renowned ASR. How do you know? Or you just KNOW?
Please read the results of the ASR tests ofRoon's implementation of ChromecastAudio (CA)streaming, which are backed by actual experimental data.
Perhaps you don't understand the plots. Here are the conclusions:
“1. The CAST audio functionality of Google Chrome is horrid. There is no excuse for it to be butchering even simple 16-bit signals as it did. While audibly it is not as dire as it looks, I still would avoid it if you can.
2. Roon's implementation of Chromecast streaming is superb. It is bit accurate up to 24 bits and 48 kHz that I tested. Congratulations to Roon for job well done. I assume they received support from Google to implement it as the protocol otherwise is not open to the public.
3. The Chromecast output has more jitter than an audiophile/instrument grade Toslink output. This is evident when used with low quality DACs like Schiit Modi 2 Uber.
4. Using a well-designed Dac like the Topping D50, there is no difference at all between Toslink from Chromecast or higher fidelity sources. All the jitter is filtered out resulting in the performance of the DAC itself being the limit.
#4 is a great news here. It means that if you have a good DAC and use Roon, you can turn your DAC into a streamer/renderer using the Chromecast Audio. For just $35, that is a superb addition.As such, the combination of Roon and Chromecase audio is highly recommended!”
By the way, there are multiple other sources that praise the CA as an excellent device for getting into streaming, for example,
Forgive me for paying more attention to actual experimental data than to hearsay opinions, no matter how many LOLs expressions are used to stress these opinions.
Paying $50 bucks to try out whether I like Roon or not, instead of spending several hundreds of dollars on other streamers with doubtful performance improvements over the CA, such as theSOtM SMS-200 and the Sonore microRendu Streamers, makes perfect sense to me.
If you look at the J-tests for both the the SOtM SMS-200 and the Sonore microRendu Streamers, which are considerably more expensive than the CA, you can see that their noise performance degrades considerably if you use them with their stock switching power supplies.
I've never used the Chromecast the cheapest I have is a raspberry pi4. As a roon endpoint it's indistinguishable from streamers I've had costing a lot more. I actually listen, with my ears, not my eyes. If your experience is not listening blind then it's flawed and useless except as a control for why we need to listen blind. Measurements are good to get a basic idea, I've never chosen a component based on measurements alone.
I have lived with Apple TV, Chromecast, Node 2i, and Sonore Optical Rendu for many years. Still own all four. And I've gotten to know all four pieces of equipment over a much longer period of time, instead of rushed A/B comparisons. My source is also Roon, and Chromecast is nowhere near the quality of Sonore or Node 2i. Period.
I guess it's hard for some to believe that staring at measurement graphs is not a good indictor of digital playback. As I've said before, there is no compression algorithm for actual listening.
That’s not what he said. Read it again, he said (verbatim): “ if connected via optical to a "decent" high performing DAC (e.g. Topping D50), it will outperform many higher-priced streamers”
I understand the usual rhetoric of your kin “everything sounds the same / no impact in SQ / no difference “, but saying “it OUTPERFORMS” many higher-priced streamers”, it is a bit of stretch. Based on what? On that ASR link? Or his own experience?
And, if a Topping D50 is “decent”, “well-designed”, “competent”, “high-performing”, then pretty much EVERY standalone DAC in the universe is such. But then again, this says nothing, as your only “contribution” in this site is about the virtues of a $2 (two American dollars) DAC 🎄🎈🎆😂
Using Roon and a good DAC, they used the Topping D50 the chromecast was fine.
3. The Chromecast output has more jitter than an audiophile/instrument grade Toslink output. This is evident when used with low quality DACs like Schiit Modi 2 Uber.
4. Using a well-designed Dac like the Topping D50, there is no difference at all between Toslink from Chromecast or higher fidelity sources. All the jitter is filtered out resulting in the performance of the DAC itself being the limit.
I know it’s hard for some to believe but price of components is not an indicator of good digital playback.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
