Phono Stage Gain - how does it impact sound?

@macg19 thanks! Trying a bigger amp is something I’m considering as well. I do love the sound of Pass Labs XA30.8 though. It’ll be sad if it’s underpowered for these speakers. 

I ran my Hana ML (awesome cart for $1200) at 62dB of gain (lowest setting on the Goldnote PS10) and that was plenty of gain. I tried 65dB but that was obviously way too much, so based on my limited experience 60dB should be fine. (I'm now running an Aidas that outputs 0.3mv but still at @ 62dB).

The Sabrina's are full range and should not need subs (although I am a REL fan - but I pair 2 RELs with Harbeth 30.2's cause that combo cost way less and are much easier to drive than the Sabrina's, otherwise I would have bought them).

I've heard the Sabrina's with a Hana ML powered by a nice tube amp (I forget which one, might have been a BAT VK 80i) and they can slam.

I think you need a bigger amp. 

There are phono amps with different amplification stages. No problem with any

cartridge. I own ASR Basis Exclusive with 4 amplifiactions as well Klyne 

7PX3.5 /B with also 4 amplification stages. The idea is to use the lowest

ampl. for the given cart. The reason:  ''the higher the amplification the higher

distortion''.

@lalitk not sure yet anything is possible :)

need to get something that’s on the level with the rest of my gear. Benchmark is great by way and it won’t be easy to beat it. 

“I’m considering a DAC upgrade now (currently using Benchmark DAC 3 HGC) to get that same type of relaxed and vibrant presentation. ”

@audphile1
Looks like Denafrips Pontus II back on the table, maybe a tube DAC from MHDT or Border Patrol :-)

Update…the new Hana ML is settling in nicely. The bass is not so much a concern anymore. I’ve played a lot of records so far and am massively impressed with the sound quality. Looks like the break in is a thing with this cartridge and more so than with any other cartridge I owned in the past. The UltraDeck together with the Sutherland KC Vibe MkII just let it all shine. And this is with the BlueJeans RCA between the phono stage and my preamp! That’ll be a link in this chain that begs for an upgrade now. I haven’t tried any other phono stage with higher gain yet but am not in a hurry to do so yet.
Also, the ML exposed certain qualities in my digital playback that I’m considering a DAC upgrade now (currently using Benchmark DAC 3 HGC) to get that same type of relaxed and vibrant presentation. 
 

Thanks all for keeping me sane thru this process! Much appreciated!

@ticat

50 hours minimun to break in... patience grass Hopper...

doing my best…

@rauliruegas yup that’s the only plan for now. And yes I’m running it @2gr VTF which is the recommended stylus force. Initial setting was 1.97-1.98gr but I changed it to 2gr

Dear @audphile1  : I think you are in a " hurry "  with a nec mc cartridge. Any cartridge needs at least 50 hours to sttle down many even more than that,

During those first 50 hours you need to run the cartridge at the high manufacturer vtf limit and could be better 60 hours.

After those 60 hours you must re-set the overall cartridge/tonearm alingment  and cartridge set up parameters and that's it.

Be patience.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

50 hours minimun to break in... patience grass Hopper...

Audphile, if there’s one thing I’ve been trying to get across to you it’s that based on the info you’ve supplied, your phono stage gain is adequate.

...and that assumption is supported by the logarithmic calculation of the total gain required by your front end components to drive your amplifier to full power.

@lewm yup. You may be right too. It’s settling in nicely. 

Audphile, if there’s one thing I’ve been trying to get across to you it’s that based on the info you’ve supplied, your phono stage gain is adequate.

Having a colleague with an EE background was helpful when it came to the phono stage.   It is a simple circuit to produce an accurate Riaa correction and amplification with modest parts.  He found my modest z phono to be overly complicated.An amplifier is a different effort, variable loads, cables, heat, vibrations to cope with.  My 30 wpc class a amplifier playing into. 91 db 8 ohm paradigms was totally top ended, yet fills the room with bass with the late arriving new speakers.  Using a subwoofer is an inexpensive way to use the class a watts for midrange and treble and class d to drive the bass

Ran it all day while working today and added another 7-8hrs.
Sounds amazing, there’s just no other word for it. Relaxed, zero fatigue listening to it all day on and off. I believe the bass is somewhat coming around and improving with more play time on the cartridge. Threw on few classical records, Dire Straits and some new Steely Dan (Analog Productions “Everything Must Go” 45rpm). It requires 8-10 more volume clicks than my benchmark DAC does but I run the benchmark into the XP-12 with a pair of XLRs.
As I said I’m not too worried, I’ll make it work. Worst case I’ll try a higher gain phono stage and see if it makes any difference. But for now I’m going to be patient until I have around 40-50hrs on this cartridge. 
Thanks all!!!

Sensitivity ought not affect frequency response. I presume that's mechanical cartridge break-in (or you just dont like the response of either the cart or the phono stage, which, after all, is an equalizer).

I presume your question as asked is rhetorical mostly. I'm happy to explain why its a ridiculously tough task, and therefore will have a huge impact.

G

Shouldn't sound like sh*t when you use the cartridge with 3mV output and the phono set for 2.6mV.  But anyway, as for audphile, the results depend in part also upon the downstream equipment.  I am surprised that the 2.6mV input does not work decently also with the 5mV cartridge, if that's what you are saying.

@dogberry makes sense to me.

Currently (not a word used to show that I never heard of Ohm's Law) I'm using three moving iron cartridges. 1mV, 3mV and 5mV. My phono amp has three settings for 'sensitivity' (ie gain), expecting respective inputs of 1.3mV, 2.6mV and 5.2mV. Now I can use the pre-amp's volume control and make everything work on the medium 2.6mV input setting, but it sounds like sh*t. Better I change the phono amp's gain to match the input, where it sounds delightful. I'm not sufficiently well-versed in electronics to explain that, but I'm sure someone here will.

@lewm I hope you right! That would be the best case scenario. 
Room is small. If you click on details under my user name you can see my setup. 

There are basic extremes to it.

Not enough gain will sound undefined and not much volume

Too much gain can damage your preamp

The right gain (range) is the best.

Yes, I know about the Pass power rating. It's an excellent amplifier and one I would consider if I needed an amplifier.  I am focusing on its power rating only because that seems the most likely place to look given the other info you provided.  Also, we don't know what is the impedance of your speakers at low frequencies; it could be much lower than the nominal 4 ohm rating.  That makes the amplifier work harder.  And we don't know the size of your room and your listening preferences.  Some like to play music LOUD. My bet is that you really have no problem except to break in your cartridge.

The Vibe has 60db of gain and the Pass Labs has 9.3 db of gain for a total of 69.3db of gain. The cartridge output is 0.4mV and the Pass Labs 30.8 has an input of sensitivity of 0.77 volts. Total gain required to drive the Pass Lab 30.8 to full power is 20log (0.77v / 0.0004v) = 66db of gain. Total gain is not your problem, sounds more like cartridge setup and/or cartridge brake-in.

@audphile1 

I believe you on exceeding expectations with Hana ML. In fact, I loved Hana ML so much that I upgraded to Hana Umami Red on my SME 15AV TT. I am now back to exploring options on TT / Tonearm and Cart for my 2nd system (all analog). I am trying to keep it under $5K and Hana ML will be again my top choice. 

@lalitk we’ll see after I get 40-50hrs on the ML. I’m more inclined to give a Sutherland 20/20 with a higher gain setting available (64db) than having to add a sub.
As far as ML sound quality, I can tell you and everyone looking into a cartridge upgrade…jaw dropping difference switching from EL to ML. Exceeded my expectations.

@mulveling yup that’s what I’m thinking too. 
@lewm the XA-30.8 is 30w in Class A. It goes out of Class A and well beyond its rated 30w/ch. When that happens the meter starts moving indicating it’s exited Class A. I rarely see that take place. I should be able to get a more powerful amp to test it though. We’ll see. And yes letting the ML break in. Playing record after record. 

Any decent phono stage, especially a solid state one like the Sutherland, is not going to be rolled off at bass frequencies, unless there is a defect in the RIAA network, which I doubt. So, put more hours on the cartridge, and if you are still dissatisfied with bass response, see if you can borrow a Pass or other similar amplifier that has a higher power rating (at least 60W), or consider more efficient speakers. 87db seems indecently inefficient to me.

My phono pre has 70db gain for MC. It is sublime.

@chayro I see. Ok. 

+1, @lewm and @rdk777

@audphile1 Allow Hana ML more break-in time, it’s one of the finest cart I’ve heard under $2K. Once you’re settled with cart, audition a REL sub in your system. They offer 60 days money back guarantee along with free shipping (both ways). Once you hear a REL, chances are you won’t be able to live without It, they are designed for 2 ch audio with their proprietary high level input connection.

Maybe the 30W Pass amplifier is a little stressed driving 87db speakers. That’s where I’d look. You should be delivering more than adequate voltage to the amplifier. But again, I’d give the cartridge time to break in for best bass.

I used Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 as my main stage for a while. Sweet sound, spec'd at 64dB but apparently measures around 60dB. There was a very clear line where cartridges ~ 0.45 - 0.5mV would sing with that stage. - full dynamics, good bass, balanced, sweet. Cartridges below that level would sound a bit lean, lacking dynamics, and slightly anemic in bass. Very unengaging. Those same cartridges did fantastic on other phono stages with more gain.

Of course I had plenty of preamp gain to compensate - it didn't help. You need to get the cartridge to phono stage match right first.

Your original post described the bass as on the lighter side and lacking in impact. You can call it anything you like, but it’s still comes down to bottom-end issues. The TZ is one model up from the KC. FYI, Steve Gutenberg reviewed the much more expensive little Loco and also found it somewhat lacking in bass compared to his reference phono stage. So it may be something inherent in the line. 

@chayro never heard TZ Vibe. I don’t find the KC Vibe MkII lean and steely sounding at all. The sound is very engaging. 

I had a TZ Vibe for audition and also found it very quiet, but lean and somewhat steely sounding. Admittedly, I only had it for 10 days or so, but I was just uncomfortable with the sound. Exchanged it for a Heed phono stage and was very pleased. Not as dead quiet, but much fuller, more listenable sound to my ears.

Run it for 50 hours, then revisit the VTA and VTF settings, finalising by ear. Dynamics should peak when the stylus is correctly aligned (more so with a fine line stylus than your previous eliptical) and the coil in the focus of the magnetic field, which may or may not happen at the centre of the VTF range. Change VTF a bit and the suspension changes the stylus rake angle so VTA needs to be reset to compensate. There’s no substitute for listening, even a microscope, though it will likely get you closer to start with.

@rdk777 thanks! The bass is fine in my system with digital playback. My room is relatively small and the Sabrinas pressurize it well. Not a fan of subs in a 2ch system…

@arize84 you’re confirming my suspicion. 

I use a PS Audio Stellar which can toggle gain settings between 60-72db. I definitely use gain settings to get more slam and bass. At max gain, the sound presentation is more forward, fuller, and has more bass. Of course most times these attributes become too much of a good thing, so I generally run phono at 66db.

Once I added a subwoofer (REL 528SE), the bass became exactly what I was looking for. Likely cannot live without it now. Would love to add a second subwoofer down the road. That would be my suggestion - REL is the best subwoofer (IMO) for integrating sound.

@lewm I can’t find the input sensitivity for my Pass XP-12. It’s rated at 9.3db gain.
 

I’m running the Sutherland single ended into the XP-12 and XLRs from XP-12 to Pass XA-30.8 amp. There’s no compatibility issues between the Pass components. Speakers are Wilson Sabrina rated at 87db, 4ohm.

True I can crank the volume up on the preamp but that’s not the solution as I’m talking lack of bass slam at 86-90db listening levels. It’s not terrible by any means but I’m still wondering if the 60db from the Vibe is sufficient.

Good point on cartridge suspension, it hadn’t have a chance to settle yet.

First, give the suspension time to break in before you expect best bass response and definition.  Second, your dataset related to gain is incomplete.  What are the input sensitivity and gain of your Pass linestage?  (Your phono stage gain can amplify the 0.4mV output of your cartridge to 0.4V.  Find out if that's enough for your linestage.  Very likely it is more than adequate. And you can add linestage gain to the 60db gain of your phono stage.) What is the input sensitivity of your amplifier, sensitivity of your speakers, size of your room, typical SPL in your room.  All of these factors affect your sense that gain is adequate, but I suspect you are OK at least up to the amplifier output.