PHONO PREAMP

Hi Ralph,

Best ignore that guy before he lures you into tainting a great thread as regrettably happened to me recently.

Best to you Ralph,
Dave 

its output impedance is so high that only speaker has reasonable punch driven by those type of otl amps is eletrostatic speaker. Furthermore ,even after extentive mod, atmaphere amps longtail differential driver stage is too weak (guess which tube number is the dtiver tube :)).

This statement is outright false and is clearly trolling. Its also quite clear that the gentleman has no idea what he is talking about as the circuit he refers to does not exist in the amp.

As an example the most common speaker used with the M-60 was for many years the Merlin VSM, which is a 6 ohm loudspeaker.

The world is your oyster my friend - you have a brilliant choice out there:
for tubes:
1. Tron
2. Thoress
3. Aesthetix
4. Manley Steelhead
that's just four

Solid State:
1. Whest Reference
2. Tom Evans Groove Master
3. Moon Audio (not sure model name - but amazing SN ratio)
4. Pass LAbs
5. Van Den Hul (the grail I think)

you are gonna have to speak to dealers and ask if you can borrow one to plug into your system and listen for about a week or so. You are shelling out a lot of cash so enjoy the journey so to speak. If you have a lot of pre 70's records look for a stage with adjustable EQ.

Btw,atmaphere amp sucks: its output impedance is so high that only speaker has reasonable punch driven by those type of otl amps is eletrostatic speaker. Furthermore ,even after extentive mod, atmaphere amps longtail differential driver stage is too weak (guess which tube number is the dtiver tube :)).

Thanks for the tube info.

Stay away from those phono  stage using 12au7s. High end tube gain stage should not use those cheap tubes w/ high output impudence and non-linear gain. High mu tubes may not Sound smooth as directly heated tubes, but at least be able to drive equalizer network w/o too much variance. Also, the real cost no concern phono stage should use inductors in equalizer.

I can't agree with this.

First, the 12AU7 is based on the 6SN7 and has similar linearity. Their main problem (which is not an issue with 6SN7s) is microphonics. They are not particularly 'high output impedance'; in fact are often used to drive power tubes.

Inductors say nothing about phono EQ one way or the other. One issue with using inductors in a phono stage is ringing; this calls for careful design to make them work.

@rhodes Have you considered using a balanced phono setup? All cartridges are a balanced source and it sounds like you have an amplifier that has a balanced input. An advantage of balanced operation is the effect of the interconnect cables in the system sound is reduced. 

Stay away from those phono  stage using 12au7s. High end tube gain stage should not use those cheap tubes w/ high output impudence and non-linear gain. High mu tubes may not Sound smooth as directly heated tubes, but at least be able to drive equalizer network w/o too much variance. Also, the real cost no concern phono stage should use inductors in equalizer.

Hagerman Trumpet Reference-bested the Zesto Andros by a significant margin. Uses 12ax7 and 12au7 tubes.About 7000 retail. Owner for 4 years- never had a ny issue.
NSP

"I have had a NVO SPAII for a few years. I recently was without it for a few weeks and had to listen to my solid state phono stage instead."

tomathome-I have been intrigued by the NVO after seeing listings years ago here, on Agon. Personally, I would NEVER have a rig without a tube phono stage.

SOO many bottles in that box!  I would imagine just a couple are really the "money" tubes for tweaking the sonics?

Based on pictues, I wasn't too impressed with the build. Tube sockets on board, case finishing looks a little  underwhelming?Sonics however....all the reviews are favorable. I would consider a used one for the right price. 

 I have had a NVO SPAII for a few years. I recently was without it for a few weeks and had to listen to my solid state phono stage instead. I can't express how much better I find tube phono stages. The NVO, I believe is one of the best.
 The blackness of the background is surprising, the energy fed to my preamp is unbelievable. Very full and rich presentation, and the smoothest and easiest on the ears I have ever heard.

The N1 is in another league with no disrespect to any Parasound product.
You just need to take the cover off for 2 reasons: 1) to see the build quality 2) set loading & gain for your phono cartridge.  Be careful not to salivate on the circuitry!
The sound is simple to describe, just gain with no signature of it's own. It gets out of the way and lets you hear exactly what's in the grooves or any other source.
As I stated earlier, possibly the best sounding preamplifier at any price on the planet!

HI, called Ron the other day and suggested the N1 to me. He was very helpful. It does keep things simple. I like the build quality. I had a Parasound JC3+. Do you think the n1 is far far superior or not even close?,  Ken  

+1 for Sutherland.  Ron doesn't get much press in the audio rags but he is very well respected. For your budget I would recommend that you seriously check-out his full featured preamplifier, the N1. I have owned mine for about 7 months.  It combines his state of the art phono stage and his well respected line stage. Bullet proof and quite possibly the best sounding preamplifier at any price. Loosing interconnects is always good!
Links: http://sutherlandengineering.com/products/n1/
  Owners Manual: http://www.sutherlandengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Sutherland-N1-OwnersManual.pdf

rhodes-if you haven't seen this listing, this Rogers tubed  unit is very nice. Made in the USA!
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/phono-rogers-pa-1a-tube-phono-preamplifier-trades-ok-2017-08-12-pr...

I have heard a couple of systems with one, and all the  expected sonic characteristics were there-and being tube, it's quiet.

Search out NVO I've heard nothing better and that included a Kondo M7.

Thanks everyone for the great suggestions, reading about them all.

Recently heard the Rogers PA-1A phono preamp. It was hooked up to a Acoustic Signature Asconda and a pair of Wilson Alexx speakers. The Rogers is also guaranteed for life. Worth checking out. Price around $7000.

McIntosh MP1100 tube phono is spectacular and priced st the lower side of your budget.

The groove SRX by Tom Evans (Audiodesign) is simply amazing. To me it sounds better than gear priced at 10k and it’s less than half the price. I use it with a Cadenza Bronze and it’s a perfect match (but also with my previous Denon it was good). There’s a purity in the sound that I simply love (my system also comprises D’Agostino amp and WA Alexia speaker).
With your budget you can aim at his top end phono stage (the master groove), but I've never had the chance to listen to it so I cannot say if the price difference is worth the extra cost 
Ciao

van den Hul has been manufacturing phono cartridges for 43 years. He has a phono stage called the Grail. It is Amazing!!  Read the positve feedback review..It won its 2016 Brutus Award .

Whest Titan Pro

Canary MC10.

Thanks for the suggestions, will look into them. very nice equipment.

If you can find one, the Jadis JP-80 is incredible. But they are hard to find on the used market. Once you upgrade a few of the caps to V-Caps, it is unbeatable.Here’s a new one for $16,000.

Another one to consider is the Coincident Statement phono stage - $6,000. It takes 4 x 12AX7 tubes.

Thanks Almarg for the link. My system that appears on Agon has been sold and I am starting over with everything again. I did acquire another set of JBL 4350's. Am looking to do a substantial  upgrade from the equipment I had before so the shopping begins. Thanks    

Rhodes, from a technical standpoint the Sutherland PhonoBlock appears to be suitable for use in your system. Regarding output impedance specifically, John Atkinson’s measurements indicate "200 ohms across the audioband," which is fine for use in conjunction with a 20K load impedance.

As Jond alluded to, though, the sonic quality it is capable of providing figures to be limited by the Benchmark, and I suspect also by your power amplifiers.

Good luck, however you decide to proceed. Regards,
-- Al

Thanks for the help all. Need  more research. Might the Sutherland phonoblock be more compatible with the benchmark DAC 2 HGC and stay with solid state units only?     

@kalali the HGC has a pair of analog inputs that are analog input to output. However it certainly seems like an unbalanced pairing of a super high end phono pre into a relatively speaking budget preamp.

Out of curiosity, why would you want to run the output of a phono preamp, specially a very high end model, into a DAC? Do you have a digital amplifier downstream of the Benchmark??

Manley Steelhead may work for the load

Based on your system description thread it appears that the outputs of the phono stage would be driving the analog inputs of a Benchmark DAC2 HGC. The analog inputs of the Benchmark (which are only provided as unbalanced RCAs) have a specified impedance of only 20K, which will be marginal (or worse) for use with many tube-based phono stages, including some of those that have been suggested.

For example, the Lamm LP2.1 has a specified nominal output impedance of "typically 2.3K," which I suspect is significantly higher at deep bass frequencies, and even 2.3K does not meet the rule of thumb guideline of a 10x minimum ratio. Also, the ARC Ref Phono 2SE has a recommended load of "50K-100K ohms and 100pF (10K ohms minimum and 2000pF maximum)," which would seem to imply that a 20K load is not ideal.

Regards,
-- Al

Decide on the price then purchase the Allnic which coordinates with that $ value.

In that price range, I would definitely be getting the Zesto Tessera.  Some reviews out there by Bob Levi and Michael Fremer.  But it has all the flexibility in the world on the front panel as well.  I had the lesser Zesto Andros and was the best tube phono pre I've heard.  My dealer is a Zesto dealer and feel free to let me know if you want to talk with him about it.  

I've been enjoying the ModWright PH-150 Reference Phono for the past year.  It's a very flexible MM/MC, 2-input, RCA or XLR tube phono stage that fits in your price range (MSRP $8K). Sounds great IMO with the stock tubes, although others have tube-rolled with good results too.  Front panel controls for all loading adjustments are a bonus. Dan Wright is an excellent manufacturer and tech advisor for this product.

Here you go, Aesthetix IO:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/phono-aesthetix-io-2017-07-25-preamplifiers-48392a1b-fe5d-450b-926...

I have no connection to the seller but this is one of the finest phono stages out there IMHO.

http://pbnaudio.com/audio-components/audio-preamps/olympia-pi-pxi

Stereophile Class A recommended - read Mike's review too :-)

Good Listening 


Peter

stand alone phono stage. will check out Lamm-Industries, thanks 

Check out Lamm!
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/lamm-industries-lp21-deluxe-phono-preamplifier/

Do you mean stand alone phono stage or full function preamp w phono?

ARC Ref 2SE phono is a good option. Readily available, well supported and good functionality