I have noticed that some tracks on Qobuz are recorded "hot". Meaning that they exceed the normal 6dB headroom. Qobuz when accessed from the computer has a volume slider that can be adjusted. If the data is sent over at too high of a volume level, the USB DAC will clip. This creates the sound like you are describing.
I looked at the Escape track and got this distortion you mentioned at 47 seconds in. I adjusted the volume down and it was gone. |
I sent this posting link along with some other tracks to Qobuz to look into |
@ajcrocker1 Awesome, thank you, so its not just me and my caps aren't going on my amp! Glad you heard the same thing.
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New to thread. In the fist post, the OP opines”I’m getting frustrated and it’s not suppose to be like this”. Wanna bet? Streaming is much harder to get right than popping in a CD or even cueing up vinyl. Listen to some of the stories in this thread, people using multiple routers, etc. streaming can be great, but those of us who are not IT experts, and even some who are, will hit many a bump in the road |
Have you tried using your phones as a hotspot to troubleshoot your problem? Just a thought...
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“Streaming is much harder to get right than popping in a CD or even cueing up vinyl.”
@mahler123,
Care to enlighten us on steps involved with a Vinyl setup (starting with unboxing a turntable) leading upto cueing Vinyl? |
The bandwidth requirement for streaming media, either TV or music, are surprisingly small. If you read the linked page mentioned here earlier, the highest quality stream, 24 bit/192 khz, only required 10 mbs of bandwidth and you've got well over 200 mbs.
The problem you describe isn't something in your router or home network. Do a bandwidth test from any of the various bandwidth testing sites. Chances are you'll see your expected 200+ mbs speed.
The data you're trying to stream isn't even coming directly from Tidal or whoever. All of the Internet companies now use a planet wide caching service call Akamai. So the network problems you're experiencing are something that is between your internet provider and Akamai, and you have no control over that.
I ripped all of my CDs to flac format to a hard drive. I play everything from a laptop, connected to a USB DAC, to my preamp. I also run my CD player through the DAC, but rarely use it as all of my stuff is on the hard drive. I have all of my music data copied to two other machines in the house as well as an off-site backup service. I have far more music than I have time to listen to, so I don't bother with streaming services. |
So happy to read this post. I thought nearly everyone had gone to streaming.
Its good to read so many see (or hear) that CDs are still most often better sounding.
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There are so many half thoughts and disconnected opinions here as to confuse anyone. A fw comments:
1. if your wifi sounds better than Ethernet, you have a problem2. A high res video stream is 3-10 mbps; streaming FLAC music is ~ 0.7 mbps. so 230 mbps is crazy overkill.3. But what raet are you getting from the music servers? They are affected by many network issues, principal among them peering (dont ask, its techo-legal)4. first trouble isolate. Does it exist with CD? Phono? Etc.5. If its streaming only, ping TIDAL or ??? and get some data6. opinions and raw "on the tin" numbers w/r/t network performance are so much gibberish. Your internet can be fast, yet a server or intermediate point congested. if so tho, the situation should vary from good to bad day by day7. No magic box will fix. Either you have a misbehaving component that needs repair, or a system problem that needs troubleshooting.
I have never had overt distortion from a streaming service whether low res or high.
Should you discover that you have inconsistent networking, and if you can set your buggers as large as possible.
Good luck. Be step by step logical.
G
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to RVpiano - i play both back to back and on my system vastly prefer streaming to physical CDs - typically from my server but also from Tidal/etc. I rip all my CDs ALAC and play on either Mac with Bitperfect and upsampling, or ROON on dedicated 4-core ROCK.G
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I am running a brand new Asus AC3100 router and it has a few ports
One thing I would do (if you haven't already) is check for firmware updates to your Asus. New wireless routers are shipped all the time with immature firmware which eventually gets fixed. New firmware has fixed network latency issues (and more serious issues) in the past. Whether this fixes your issue or not it's a good idea to check from a security standpoint. |
I used to do corporate networks starting 30 years ago and their could be a few things that you should look at:
1) you indicated that xfinity saw some errors. What were they? Could they fix them or did they mask them by upping your speed? Speed isn’t the problem, it’s the quality of your connection.
2) something simple to look at 1st on your side is you could have a bad Ethernet patch cable. We used to certify every cable that we made to ensure it was built right. Invest in a cheap network cable analyzer like the Tripp-lite network cable tester for $40 and check each of your cables. You would be surprised how many cables have issues
2) Router configuration. How many routers are you using? Do you have a bridged network or a mesh network? If you are using a few routers, are they attached by an Ethernet cable or from WiFi? Big difference in performance, you don’t want to use WiFi unless you have to.
3) you want to use a 1G internal network which requires cat5e cables or higher. I use a cat7 audioquest Ethernet cable from my wall socket to my dac, much better termination which equals better sq.
I have been streaming (to me streaming is accessing music on a disk drive or internet) for over a dozen years without any issues. My music server is a Mac mini running Roon from a different room than my audio equipment. I have been thru many years using pure music/Audirvana software or a dedicated music server Auralic Aries. Roon replaced all of that.
Network wise, I have a 1G private network and my house is all wired using cat6 cablIng. My internet is a 1G fiber network. My last house I had 1G fiber using cat5e cables without any issues. Even with my home wired in every room going to a 1G switch, I use 3 routers all connected together with cat6 cabling. All 3 routers are setup in a bridged configuration. Any Mac that is attached to any router will see 950Mb upload and download speeds with 3 or 4 ms latency. Tidal MQA is every bit as good and usually much better sound quality than ripped or purchased hires files as well as vinyl. |
@ jmphotography I too have Asus AC3100 (AWESOME router!) and NAD C388 w/BluOS2i MDC module (essentially same as Node 2i) connected by WiFi. Whatever Ethernet cable (Cat 5e/6/7/8/etc.) proponents say about improved SQ is BS. WiFi with the specific units mentioned above works AWESOME! Notice I said SQ. I’ve never had bad SQ from the WiFi connection. However, I have had music stop playing due to poor WiFi connection - read more about Roaming Block List below. The bandwidth you mentioned is way more than necessary. We have 100MB service, and simultaneously doing the following without any issues: - 2x kids playing Xbox1S’s MMO’s with VOIP service running on top (for headset banter)
- Streaming Netflix Ultra (4k with HDR and surround) in the HT system on another Xbox1S.
- Me streaming Amazon UltraHD with BluOS
Another member mentioned adjusting the router to prioritize audio... Yes, this is possible. Once logged-in to the Asus AC3100, on the left side menu click "Adaptive QoS". There will be 3 tabs in the main screen, "Bandwidth Monitor", "QoS", "Web History" - click "QoS". Enable QoS = Yes QoS Type = Adaptive QoS Bandwidth Setting = Automatic Select = Media Streaming Click Apply (router will do its thing, and setting will be in effect) The above is quick & dirty way to do it. Way more trickery is possible with more advanced setting adjustments. If you have a marginally weak WiFi signal, music stream may suddenly pause - then spontaneously restart. If you have a fully-weak WiFi signal, music may pause and not come back. Think of this as similar to having a partially or fully damaged Cat cable - results are expected. Notice there is never static or noise... music just stops (same as it would with damaged cable). My wireless network consists of additional routers. As you may know, AC3100 is MESH-capable. I have the AC3100 as primary, with two Asus AC1900 routers in AiMesh mode to seamlessly (for mobile devices) cover more ground (4,000 sqft house on 1 acre). These routers also allow capability to specify devices stay on a particular router in the mesh network (for devices that aren’t mobile), which can be handy, since mesh will move devices around to load-balance. I have the BluOS2i (NAD MDC module) locked to the closest router (and only router not located in the basement). This feature is called "Roaming Block List" - find it in left-side menu Advanced Settings/Wireless/Roaming Block List. Hope this helps - Good luck! If you need more help with router settings PM me - happy to help. |
Sierra Hull. Thanks for a fine artist and very nice recording. Streaming of course. Requires about 2 Mb/s bandwith. |
OK, thank you everyone for the help. We can end the discussion, it appears to be caps in my amp. It started happening this morning, I switched to CD and it continued. Frustrating, but now I know its not the streaming.
@gosta you're welcome. Listen to her other albums, very talented mandolin player as well as an incredible voice. Found her because I listen to a lot of Alison Krauss |
I stream through spectrum and don’t have your issue but do have issues. I have run multiple speed tests at different times of the day and get results anywhere from 32 to 225. It is not just me but our entire neighborhood. We have had them out here many times and the only answer is we have an issue but they do not know how to fix it. You have to look at how US companies operate. They use outdated systems outdated equipment tell us and market and advertise it as the latest and greatest so they can charge us a higher price than we should have to pay for a system that is 10 years behind the rest of the world. This is the same and worse for your cell phone. Just look at the benchmark speeds that are published for other countries. It is not your modem it is not your router it is the system we have and nothing we can do about it.
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@sgreg1, if you and your neighbors are not getting the contracted speed from your ISP, it is time to take it to the NEXT LEVEL. Please check to see who is responsible for your ISP’s legal contract in your city. In my city, it was the City Attorney. Several years ago. I had similar ISP related problems in our neighborhood. I called the City Attorney’s Office and explained the situation. He asked me to document the facts and send him the information. I put together a very detailed package that documented our problems, what we did, the ISP’s lack response, etc. I included additional comments from my other neighbors. I was very factual and provided all the necessary supporting material. His department began an investigation to see what was going on. It took time, he asked for more information and eventually, our ISP problem was FIXED. As a result of the investigation, the City decided to contract for additional ISP’s to provide its citizens additional ISP service choices. For me, the best news, was that I dropped the bad ISP and switched to another ISP Service.
Obviously, this is not a short-term fix. It will require lots of work, patience and extra efforts to get it done. I was very lucky since my City Attorney understood the problem and was extremely helpful in working to get it solved. I had also contacted other City Officials, explained the issues I was having with the ISP and what I was doing about. They also reported they had ISP issues and that really helped my case. There is no question in my mind that they contacted the City Attorney and that helped put the pressure on.
I encourage you to take this next step. It will take time and patience, but it is well worth it. As noted, you should work with your City Attorney (or another department), and other City officials, to get this issue resolved. I suggest you start gathering the facts, include detailed documentation including comments from your neighbors and present your case. I hope this helps.
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I use Amazon HD and download the songs to my pc. This way, I can play hi-res tracks with no internet at all. I still have access to the vast library, I just download a song/album when I find one I like. |
@ OP: As others have stated, digital data packages are not precisely controlled in the time domain. I had a similar problem with an Apple airport extreme WiFi router (airport express 'satellites' have no internal clock). The best explanation in my case was a clock locking issue at the DAC level. The DAC uses a digital buffer/minimal delay to sort out the time domain precisely. This buffer can be overwhelmed.
I transitioned to a mesh WiFi router (Lynksis) and never looked back. Works well with airplay, Chromecast, and perfectly with ROON even when multiple clients are active on the WiFi network. Specifically, transmitting using ROON via WiFi from a MacBook pro to an OPPO UDP 205 is slightly superior to Toslink or USB. USB introduces minimal noise.
Don't give up on streaming yet! Good luck! |
Hi, I share your frustration; I spent almost a year testing different options. I tried the famous brands: Auralic, Naim, Lumin, etc. Streaming is a great option if you have all working properly. You need to have a good streamer. I recommend trying this combo: https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/audio-server/products/premier-server-player-combo-sonictransporter-i5-ultrarendu-7v-linear-power-supply?variant=12400215719970My system: 1. PrimaLuna Dialogue Integrated HP 2. Sonic Transporter i5 and Ultra Rendu 3. Mutec REF 10 External Clock 4. Mutec MC3+ USB 5. Esoteric D-05 DAC 6. Nordost Qkore6 for grounding 7. Nordost: QB8 (1), QX2 (1) e QX4 (1) 8. Focal Utopia Headphones 9. Sonus Faber Cremona Speakers 10. Pair of REL S/5 SHO Now, after using I5+Ultra Rendu in mys system, I found my nirvana. You'll need to buy also a better Ethernet Switch and better Ethernet cables (you'll find people saying that switches and cables would make no difference. Don't listen to them! They are wrong. I don't care that digital signals are 0s and 1s only, but sonically speaking there is a big difference when you have better Ethernet switch and cable. Don't just listen to me! Test and compare as I did). Good luck |
I share your frustration; I spent almost a year testing different options. I tried the famous brands: Auralic, Naim, Lumin, etc.
Probably almost sounds as good now as your CD source once did that was binned. Would have been even better if that kind of effort was put into it also Cheers George |
Sorry to hear about the caps but that makes more sense as the likely cause of distortion than network issues which again can result in delays if insufficient bandwidth but not aware of that ever being the cause of distortion, especially with a WiFi connection. |
Laltik
”care to enlighten us with steps involved with cueing up vinyl”
Not sure where you are going with some latent snarkiness here, but my point was that when getting started with streaming, the frustrations can be so great for the average person, that even getting started with an analog system can be easier.
I am not a vinyl guy. Sold off my vinyl rig five years ago, got rid of the lps, and haven’t looked back. However, this entire thread is filled with people listing their myriad difficulties getting streaming right, going through multiple changes in streamers, WiFi routers,changing Ethernet connections, etc, getting components to recognize each other, etc. Advertisers try to make it sound simple, just plug and play, and that can make the purchaser feel like a nitwit if they encounter all the IT issues that routinely plague the work place and keep IT support people happily employed.
My offhand comment about vinyl (I dislike vinyl so much that I cannot believe I am writing something positive about it here) was that for a newbie it may be easier to initiate than streaming. Turntables can have cartridges pre mounted, and technically, that is the biggest obstacle. Keep in mind I am referring to starter turntables here, not some $50,000 bit of esoterica. Pop the platter on, the Matt, set the antiskate, make the connections with the preamp, perhaps adjust a cartridge setting on the preamp. I won’t get into the record cleaning, static, hum issues, etc...Again, the point being that even this cumbersome process can be easier than initiating streaming.
Newcomers to streaming should be aware that sometimes it works out of the box, and sometimes it can be a soul testing trial. If the person is really proficient in IT, that is a plus. For the rest of us, I would start with a dealer or company that has really good support. The normal progression, at least for me, when exploring a new technology is to start with an inexpensive component to familiarize myself with the technology, and then upgrade over time. With streaming this can backfire, as the cheaper equipment may not be well supported. Bluesound used to have good support, now, as they have gotten bigger, not so much. Dealers, particularly older ones who are used to dealing with traditional audio components, may not be very helpful either, and they can be loath to admit this. If purchasing from a bricks and mortar store, make sure they have some IT savvy people on site
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Hey I'm in I.T., I resemble that...
Besides it wasn't the technology it was PEBCAK
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to itsjustme,
Sometimes streaming does sound better through my Schiit Multibit DAC, but most often my Cyrus CD transport sounds better though the same DAC. |
Try wired connection directly off the router should give you a gigabit speed. Wireless bandwidth is limited. Especially of running wireless video to receiver boxes in other areas of the house.
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I don’t get the obsession with streaming. What, pay some outfit crazy dollars to stream audio rather than using your own media via Vinyl or cd? No, it’s not happening. Is this streaming thing a fad, or do these outfits exist because they’re supported by non audiophiles? I think the latter. Vinyl rules. Still |
What, pay some outfit crazy dollars to stream audio rather than using your own media via Vinyl or cd?
I spend way more on vinyl every month than I do for streaming services. With vinyl (and CDs) I'm limited to the media I have. With streaming I have almost everything I could ever want to listen to at my fingertips. Now that I think about it, why do I keep buying vinyl? |
Streaming brought in about 75% of revenues for the record labels last year. So it will be around for a while.
Streaming gives you access to millions of albums. You can buy the ones you really want a copy of that no one can take away.
Streaming is good for people who like to try new (to them) music. I listen to all kinds of stuff I never would buy. Some I like a lot, some I don’t. Thanks to streaming I don’t have piles of CDs or Lps that I don’t want. |
