Ohm Walsh Micro Talls: who's actually heard 'em?

Coot,

Keep in mind that the new amp is likely revealing or relating what is fed into it differently than before. If "digital edginess" is heard, I'd say it is quite possible that changes to input might address that. My Class D Bel Cantos are very revealing. I hear major differences in that regard even with changing ICs. Also definitely with DACs. Not so much on digital source, but my digital source is Wifi connected to remote music server with Toslink connection out to DAC. USB connections alone can vary quite a bit case by case as well as I understand it, though I have no experience with those. Personally, I would steer away from USB conenctions myself unless willing to experiment with different implementations.

Just some thoughts to point out that any new issues heardwith new amps may or may not be amps fault. A/B comparisons/testing with different gear might be needed to sort through.

That is my favorite version of St. Saens ORgan Symphony as well. Not perfect but a very fulfilling analog rendition no doubt.

Also should point out that break in time may be needed with many Class D amps from what I read, so might be wise to get through that first before changing opr addressing anything else. My Class D amps were acquired used and I did not find they changed much over time by the time I had them. ALso, they sound good immediately from a cold start when I power them up, though I do tend to leave them on most of the time in that they do not draw much power idle.

Mapman:"changes to input might address that."

My thought exactly. Wyred4sound DAC 2DSDse is on order.

Also, D-sonics now have been running over over 60 hrs. I'll check for sq in a few more hrs.

Just spent 2 hrs listening after 66 hrs break-in. Not much better. Looking forward to new DAC.

Coot, the PS Audio Power Plant Premier's maxium output is 1500W, make sure you are pluging the D-Sonic amps directly into a wall outlet. By the way, for break-in purposes the D-Sonic amps only need to be plugged in and turned on 24/7, no real need to play music for break-in.

Good point by Tobe. Not usually a good idea to plug high power amplifiers into anything other than the wall outlet. External power conditioners usually become a bottleneck for optimal amp performance in that they cannot deliver the power and current needed. Those that can will be quite large and heavy and expensive to boot and better results may or may not result still.

Thanks, guys. Done.

Final report on d-sonic M3-1500s. To make it short - They're going back. After 100+ hrs, shrillness still there - I mean "gives us headaches" shrill. Good kick in the low end, but that's all the good I can say. Connected my new W4S DAC2 DSD-se hoping to make it better. No change in sq al all. Put the B&K back in. The bass is deeper and sound is cleaner with more detail throughout with no digititis. I am v-e-r-y happy with this DAC. Sorry the amps didn't work out but glad you suggested to try a better source, Mapman! Later I may try the AVA 600R, but we will live with the B&K for awhile as it has whetted our appetite for deeper bass, etc.

Coot, thanks for your honest opinion. To hear shrillness coming from your Ohm speakers really did concern me because Ohms have a very mild manner tweeter. I'm shock but appreciate the heads up.

Coot .. as I'm sure you are aware, the W4S amps have garnered much praise in their latest iteration. Just thinking out loud here but perhaps you should consider them as well in the future. The synergy offered by using products from the same company can be compelling. Congrats on the new DAC.

Yes, OHMs and shrillness are not a natural match, but I have heard a big difference top to bottom with different amps so amp is always a big factor.

I guess the lesson learned is Class D is not always a slam dunk with OHMs, for whatever reason.

I find ICs from source to pre and especially pre to amp can also make a very significant difference. I've switched between DNM Reson and MIT TErminator. DNMs have more etched detail through mids and highs, which I like with the OHMs. MITs are smoother/more rounded there and add more to the low end. Room acoustics and personal preference would probably be the largest factors in choosing.

Wow. Thanks, Coot. That's the first negative experience I have read with the D-Sonics. And, the ONLY experience I have read abouit with D-Sonics feeding Ohms. The posts regarding power filters vs. plugging into the wall cannot be stressed enough. I am still evaluating, but it appears that my amp clipping issues (see earlier posts) were mostly the result of two different power filters the amp had been plugged into. With my current amp (Odyssey Audio Stratos HT3 w/cap upgrade) plugged into the wall, most of the clipping issues seem to have dissappeared. Also, the soundstage presentation has widened out a bit. Good thing, too, since I won't be able to do any upgrading for a while.

If you want good Class D amps that worked very well with my Ohm 2000s, I suggest the Arion RS-500. Pricey (~$4K/pr), but I think they are less expensive than new Bel Cantos.

Mamboni is a classical musician and OHm Walsh affectionado that at last report was very happy with Wyred4Sound Class D. It was his experience that helped peak my Class D amp/OHM interest. I opted to splurge on the BCs rather than "cur corners" with Wyred. They both use similar Ice Power amp modules and custom input stages with higher input impedance for better match to tube pre-amps. BC adds a custom power supply board. Power supplies are traditionally the weak link in many stock Class D amp modules. Different vendors do their own thing there to achieve performance improvements.

Bond, I always found your clipping issue as described somewhat puzzling, but use with power filters as the culprit for clipping for reasons mentioned above does not surprise me. Glad its resolved.

Probably worth saying that if there is still an "achilles heel" to any extent with Class D amps, the top end is probably where it will be. Similar to what is often discussed with digital versus analog, but not exactly the same in a technical sense.

I have been most happy with the top end of my BC amps, but I would speculate that it is the one area that might compare less favorably to other amp types in more cases at present. I think the technology is fairly mature at this point but still has room to improve and will. That drives my interest in newer designs when they come out.

My ears were much more sensitive to higher audible frequencies when they were much younger as well. That is also undoubtedly a factor. Not all ears are equally sensitive in the same ways. Yet another reason why individual mileage will always vary.

Ncore-12 may be a good solution. I have not heard one and can't afford $12k anyway.

Coot, while I do admit that I am extremely fond of Ncore technology, and a well broken-in Ncore NC1200 amp seems completely incapable of producing nasty jaggies in multi-part high strings, class D amplifiers tend to take a long time to break in.... In my experience 1,000 hours for Ncore-based Merrill Veritas, 600 hours for Icepower1000ASP-Based Bel Canto REF1000M, and 1200 hours for Rowland M312 based on the same ICEpower 100ASP module. Before a class D power amp is well stabilized, it has the uncharming propensity of going into periodic funks.... shrill one moment, saggy and lifeless another moment. The 100 hours mark seems to be just the beginning of the typical class D wild ride.

I have no experience with D-Sonics amps, but I suspect that around the 100 hours mark they may be still very young and raw kittens, and may be deserving of some audiophilic patience.

Regards, Guido

That was a very interesting post, Guido. I was also thinking D-Sonic maybe needed more break-in time by just leaving it on 24/7. You have restored my faith in class D amps. Thanks.

Well Guido, you seem to be knowledgeable on the subject. I was going by Dennis' figures of 40-100 hours based on users experiences. I have already sent them back, so I can't experiment. After 100+ hrs neither my wife nor I could tell it had made any difference whatsoever. Further listening was painful - literally. You may be correct, but compared to my sweet old B&K it was no contest.

Interesting thing is, we became so enamored with the new W4S Dac that we have at least for the time being decided the B&K is doing to job just fine. Bass - which is what I wanted improved, now IS. Every aspect of the listening experience has improved dramatically. Better soundstage (I now know what the word means!), detail, correct tonal coloring, etc, etc. I used to read that Ohms were "good speakers, but not the last word in detail'. Well mine are, now!

As for amp burn-in, if I manufactured amps, or any component, I would feel it incumbent to burn-in before shipment as long as necessary. I thought they did that. Guess some do, some don't.

I probably won't be dippin' my toe in the class D pond again anytime soon.

Hi Coot, unfortunately no audio manufacturers have the financial resources and patience to warehouse and immobilize assets for two months of break-in before shipping... Unless one of their relatives were makers of fine Parmizan cheese or Barolo wine, that is.
And very much like Parmezan and Barolo, class D amps fresh-off the factory floor are hardly instant gratifiers.

So they make up these fanciful urban legends about their particular products blossoming into marvellous music makers just after a couple of days of break-in.

Having said this, not having, uhrn... taste tested the D-Sonics at all, I have no idea whether their early intemperant asperities would eventually evolve into the complex bouquet of a mature Amarone, or slide into the matter of factness of a Texas red.

G.

Yamaha does, but there not that stupid.

No doubt, it all matters what you feed the OHMs. DAC, pre-amp, amp, ICs, power ... I had to change it all along the way to get it where I wanted it to be. Amp change to current BC Class Ds was the last change made.

after having the 600/channel dual mono d-sonic amp now for appox 11 mo. here are a few thing that I have learned.
Power cords do make a difference get a good H/C one
They can draw a current, remove them from PS AUDIO regenerators which will limit total output... and they like most amps will respond to IC'S to warm up the sound..
I think D-Sonic is a good option with my Ohms esp with these tweeks.
Dennis

Yes, if not mentioned earlier in this thread, definitely do not use most power conditioners/regeneraters, etc. with power amps. They will become a bottleneck in regards to delivering power and current needed. Pre-amps, source devices, etc., have at it.

I have a PS Audio P1000 with 600 watt Bryston plugged in. I use good power cords and dedicated mains. I don't have the bottleneck problem. Cleans up and tightens bass, darker background. Its running in regenerated port with 60 hz 117 volt. What was your model PS Audio

Blue,

Have you compared with and without PS audio using same power cords to amps? I would expect differences at all volumes.

Can't draw any conclusions in lieu of hearing but on paper, p1000 looks like a pretty hefty beast, but only 7 amp current delivery per spec sheet I can see. 600W bryston delivers significantly more current than that I would bet.

My guess is results are a mixed bag of +s due to the device noticeable largely in midrange and higher and -s due to more limited current delivery, which I would guess might limit impact or meat on bones of bass perhaps. Either might sound better depending......

I can tell a little difference listening again. My volume knob does not have to be turned as far. 1:30 vs 3:00. I suspect my 15 amp dedicated line may be the actual choke point. A 20 amp line may be the thing however Bryston said my model is the 15 amp version.

We do share a lot of information here, and especially with this thread in general discussing many other types of omni, or omni-like speakers. This review is of another speaker, of which I have owned it's baby brother, the Model 4, for a year or so, along with a pair of Shahinian Obelisk 2's about 2 months ago. Check out the review here:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue69/larsen8.htm

After taking a big break for about a year or so, selling my gear-my Ohm 3000's and MWT's etc., I came back looking at other alternatives, and the Larsen and Shahinian's ended up doing rotation in my system. While both Larsen and Shahinian-as well as Ohm's share many similarities, they all seem to still manage to do their own thing, and do it well. I still do miss the Ohm's at times, and may someday end up with another pair.

Nice to see this thread still alive! Tim

My lack of recent posts should not be misunderstood. I am still loving my Walsh 2000s, and do not anticipate changing out my speakers in the forseeable future. Unfortunately, any and all upgrades are on indefinite hold. While still marginally employed, the wheels have come off the cart at work. The good news is that I am in a good place, audio-wise, with hundreds and hundreds of CDs to load on my server, and even more vinyl to digitize and place on the server. Just hoping nothing breaks!

Hi Bondman.

Sorry to hear about the work issues. Hopefully that can be put behind you sometime soon. Its a dog eat dog world out there these days for sure!

Meanwhile, hopefully take pleasure whenever/wherever you can. Enjoy the music!

Hoping for the best there Bond! At least you have great music, and while that may seem like a very hollow thing right now, I know music goes a long way to help get through those down-turns, it certainly did with me over the course of the last couple of years! Hang in there! Tim

Hi guys .. not much happening on the thread lately so I thought I'd share.

A while ago I decided to stop the madness and jump off the merry-go-round. Fortunately I have enough gear in storage to swap in/out when the mood strikes for something different, which is inevitable. I moved to computer audio completely in the past couple of years and have managed to put together a very satisfying system, which is currently:

Mac mini (late 2012, i7, 256GB SSD, 16GB RAM)
SOtM dX-USB HD converter
Chord QuteHD DAC
Odyssey Cyclops Integrated (SE+ w/ps upgrade)

While I’ve been using my Magnepan MMGs almost exclusively, I occasionally swap them out with my Mark & Daniel Rubys, or the MicroWalsh Talls for a different presentation, but always seem to miss the Maggies and put them back in the system. Far from perfect, the little Maggies have a rightness to them that appeals to me.

Well, I’m antsy and the mood for change is yet again upon me. It was 10 years ago this coming February that the MicroWalsh Talls arrived in my home, so I thought it was fitting to give them another extensive listen. Of the changes I’ve made recently, the most significant has been the addition of room correction software via Amarra Symphony w/iRC. The integration with Dirac’s room correction wizardry has been game-changing for me and while on the expensive side (for software), it was well worth the price paid. I recently put the Talls back into the system, hooked up the microphone, and ran the IRC Measurement program to create a correction filter.

One of the niceties of the iRC function within Amarra Symphony is the ability to turn the filter on/off easily while playing music, instantly hearing the difference, and a difference there is. First and foremost I must say the 10 year old Talls are still a pleasure to listen to without room correction. With the room correction filter applied, there is more focus and clarity (somewhat like dipoles) and yet the omni presentation and wide sweet spot is fully intact. Bass is more controlled and nuanced. Timbre is gorgeous as usual. The Talls are simply better behaved from top to bottom. Needless to say, I’m pleased with this improvement.

Room correction has intrigued and intimidated me for years. With this latest Amarra Symphony build the intimidation factor is obliterated with its ease of use. Treating the room in this way allows me to have a living-room/listening-room without bass traps and/or acoustic panels, or hiring a pro for advice. It’s been said many times that Ohm’s loudspeakers shine with better electronics and I couldn’t agree more with that sentiment. I would now include room correction in addition to better gear. After 10 years of ownership these loudspeakers remain beguiling and seductive, a joy to listen to and live with. One day I hope to move up to the 2000’s, perhaps when I find myself hopping back on that inevitable carousel ride.

Many people are using the Mac mini(headless) as a music server and controlling itune with an apple remote app or using an apple remote desktop app, like Splashtop on there ipad, neat.

Interesting write-up, WTF.
I too have gone to Amarra Sym w/iRC. I have the Ohm 5000s and was hoping for more than I got. The result was a flat range alright, but overall flat sound as well, i.e. the life was sucked out of the music. I started with very uneven bass which iRC fixed nicely, but the rest did not need much fixing, so I set the high cutoff point to 200 Hz and the life came back.

I am happy with the results. Now If only I could configure the speakers to fill the hole in the middle better. Not much space to work with moving them around.

Thanks Coot. Glad to hear you got some benefit from iRC. Interesting that your SQ suffered above 200hz. I suppose that may help illustrate how well engineered the 5000s are. Bass around 100hz was giving me the most trouble and is much improved with the iRC filter.

When you say you have a hole in the middle, do I understand you correctly that you can't place your speakers in a way for proper center imaging?

Yes. The 5000s are 6.5 ft apart on centers. Between the speakers is a 44-inch doublewide Mapleshade equipment shelf. The wall behind is 11.25 ft. wide, the speaker centers are 28 in. from the rear wall. The side walls are 30 inches from the speaker centers. The speaker cabinets are 13 in. square and are angled outwards approx. 4 degrees to aid in directing the high frequencies to the listener.

The listening sofa is 9.5 ft from each speaker. The left seat of the 2-seat sofa is the "prime" one although I can't tell any difference between the 2. I used the "sofa" configuration for the XTZ mics. Ceiling height is 9 ft. There is much more "room" description as it has 3 openings and flows readily out to some roughly 13,000 cubic ft of living space.

To the left of the listener is a small upright piano. To the right is a 48-ft opening. Behind the listeners is a 60-inch opening. Behind the left shoulder of the sofa is a 30-in. opening. No openings have closable doors.

So, even though I have called this a "room", it is very much open to the living quarters. It is a repurposed formal dining area.

----

Music is mostly classical - full orchestral, pipe organ, chamber, choral, opera, etc.

Bottom line is, yes there is a discontinuance of the soundstage all the away across. And it's not terribly deep either. The omnidirectionality of the Ohm design gets me by pretty well for large-scale works. For more intimate recordings there is more sound left and right, but somewhat empty in the center. If I stand close in, there is a definite centering of instruments that are supposed to be there, particularly in solo singers. For example, Willie Nelson voice and his picking' is more centered and as I back away, he moves to the right.

I have experimented with different angling so as to get the tweeter aimed to the listener, but nothing seems to really solve it. I am more or less reigned to waiting until we can move to a house with a real music room.

Are Ohms less capable of true imaging than non-omni types?

Thanks for sharing in detail Coot. Hopefully someone will have an idea or two for you. First, let me say that Ohm loudspeakers are certainly capable of presenting a solid and believable center image with wonderful depth and width to boot. Like any speaker, placement is key and Ohm’s are generally considered forgiving in this regard. The room has perhaps the greatest impact on sound quality and can be especially troublesome for those of us without perfect dedicated listening spaces. Like you, I’m one of the unfortunate. Please allow me to share my situation as it’s similar to yours and will hopefully offer some encouragement.

My typically appointed living room is 13’ x 18’ x 8’. My gear is racked on a Salamander Synergy unit smack in the middle of the speakers and wall. Measuring as you did from the middle of the driver, the Talls are 26” from the front wall, 38” from the side walls, with 80” between them. My sofa being the prime spot puts me at 9.5’ from each speaker. While facing the gear, I have a large picture window (with treatment) to my left, a 68” archway to my right, and a 69” archway behind me. The back of the sofa measures 58” to the back wall and archway. The archway behind me opens to a foyer and stairway. The archway to my right opens to another room .. a fairly open design and somewhat problematic.

This arrangement also includes a bookcase, liquor cabinet, chair, tables, lamps, and artwork, etc. There was a lot of experimenting, moving stuff inch by inch until I locked it in. It took a while and it wasn’t easy, but the results are great. It’s all there .. imaging, depth, and width. Coot, if I can achieve this in my room, I’m sure you can achieve the same. That being said, you have whole lot more space adjoining (13,000 cubic ft. - wow!) than I have. However, I encourage you to reevaluate the space and start with speaker placement or perhaps moving your sofa forward a bit. It’s surprising how much difference a few inches can make. Perhaps snapping a few photos of your space and emailing John for guidance might be helpful.

Best of luck. Sorry I couldn’t be more help to you. Cheers.

Thanks for your suggestions, W. I believe I will follow your advice in the last line.

Re Amarra/iRC:
Did you get the setup on the first try? Was SQ immediately an obvious improvement? Did you experience any sparkle missing? I have no knowledge of any other Ohm owners using iRC. Perhaps some will chime in here now.

1st try? You must be joking ;-)

As easy as the measurement process is I ended up doing several. In fact, each time I swap anything in/out of my system I feel the need to remeasure, realizing, of course, it's the room I'm measuring and not the gear. Still, I can't help thinking everything matters.

I do hear immediate and obvious improvement with no problems in the higher frequency spectrum, no missing sparkle. Honestly, I'm experiencing more clarity and focus which makes the top end sound more detailed, more believable. Have you played around with the gain settings at all?

BTW, I wasn't sure if the omni presentation of the Ohm's would work well with room correction. I'm hoping there are more of us too.

Tweaking is key to getting things right with any setup, including with OHMS.

In general, less separation between speakers and/or distance from rear wall helps with center imaging.

Imaging and soundstage with OHM omnis is significantly different than what most are used to with more conventional directional designs. The soundstage tends to be more detached from actual speaker location and more based on room acoustics and location relative to listening position than more conventional directional design speakers.

You have to listen more to the room and not the speakers in order to get a handle on things. SOundstage and imaging is typically totally detached from actual speaker location and more determined by room geometry when things are going well.

For example, my OHM 5s are both located right of center along the wider base wall of my L shaped room, but sound from mono recordings tend to come from dead center between the walls, almost to the left of the leftmost speaker.

US a good quality mono recording to help get a handle on center focus and imaging. Generally, when a good mono recording sounds well focused and centered, stereo recordings will also naturally come into their own as well.

Furniture or other large objects between speakers can definitely have an effect as with most any speaker.

My level of dissatisfaction with iRC is not great. I tried a DSPeaker Anti-Mode when they first came out. I could not detect a significant improvement so I returned the unit. Add that experience to this one and I have sort of concluded that my space is not particularly bad other than being too small (is-speakers closer to walls than optimum. All I really wanted was to smooth out the bass and iRC ha accomplished that pretty well. Now I will try tweaking speaker placement, etc to get better imaging if possible.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, guys.

While I'm not technically as proficient as a lot of the people in this thread, I do have experience with the MWT's in home theater without a center, and with Audyssey.

As mentioned before, if there is hole in the image, they are too far apart. If too close, they sound like a single mono source. Best thing about Ohm's is there seems to be a lot of wiggle room.

With room correction, even the basic Audyssey worked quite well, especially in taming some shrill highs in a cavernous room we had last year.

However, I thought that old-fashioned experimentation and basic room treatment gave even better results. I definitely have more detail and soundstage without the room correction.

If you sit in the sweet spot of a conventional speaker, would the Ohm's differ if you dropped them into the same spot? IOW, is it only when you start moving out of the sweet spot that omni speakers start to shine?

(My apologies if this has been asked already.)

Did someone really say they got Ohms wrapped only in bubble wrap?

My 100s arrived in about 6 layers of boxes that also defeated UPS's best attempts to decapitate them by forklift. I joked with John that he uses that many layers of packaging to discourage anyone who wants to return them - the thought of repacking that box will cause many to think twice.

Shy of my Verity P/Es (shipped in aluminum flight cases) the Ohms were the most securely packed item that I've ever received.

"If you sit in the sweet spot of a conventional speaker, would the Ohm's differ if you dropped them into the same spot? IOW, is it only when you start moving out of the sweet spot that omni speakers start to shine?"

Sweet spot is usually much bigger with OHMs/omnis in general making listening easier. THat's probably the biggest difference.

Second unique aspect of OHM sound is coherency top to bottom to go with the big sweet spot.

Third is usually a wide wall to wall soundstage. Not unique to OHMs, but perhaps easier to accomplish with those compared to many.

Fourth is a lot of dynamic headroom given the size of teh driver and speaker, which seems to be an attribute of the CLS Walsh design specifically.

Like any speaker, positioning is usually a big part of the sonic picture, but not the only part. Dropping an Ohm or any other omni-type speaker into the same position as a typical forward-firing box speaker may be worse in some aspects, especially if the placement of those speakers is close together. This is somewhat listener dependant of course, place to taste so to speak, but I always preferred my Ohms to be typically spaced wider apart than I would most box speakers. I always felt that the soundstage and imaging would be better this way, whereas if they were closer together, things can begin to sound like a large ball of music. Maybe not a bad thing depending on how you want your "staging".

I used to own Walsh 3000's and also the MWT in omni-configuration, and both of them liked to be placed a decent bit apart. I always played with that positioning though very much like I would any speaker, even an omni's soundstage can become collapsed and not realistic if placed too far apart. The positioning/angle of the tweeters does enable a wider spacing, while still getting the imaging and stage correct. In general I agree with Map's post above.

I now own a pair of Swedish Larsen Model 4's, that are not too far off from a pair of Ohm's in some respects, especially ragarding the tweeter positioning to some degree. I find that I can place these speakers similarly to the Ohm, 10-12 feet apart, and listening around the same distance or even a bit less with very good results.

I also own a pair of Shahinian Obelisk 2's, and they continue to amaze me, it seems they can sound as large as the room you have them placed in without making the individual performers and instruments seem too large-no vocalists with 10-foot wide mouths here. I don't know how they do it, but they get most things right as do Ohm's.

Ohm's, Larsens, Shahinians, all very similar products at varying price points, but they all manage to sound right to me, like real music in a realistic setting.

Tim

I have larger OHM 5s fairly close to each other (4 ft) in my larger L shaped room, and smaller OHM 100S3 far apart (10 feet or so, corner in-between) in my smaller 12X12 room.

I think a lot regarding placement will depend on room acoustics and preferred listening location, so I am hesitant to make any general statements about best location. It can vary widely case by case I think, but probably no more so than with most conventional speakers for best results.

I will say that the best location for a conventional box design will likely not be exactly the same as for OHMs, but in many cases there may not be too much difference.

Very true Map, it is like a lot of things, very dependant on room and tastes. I tend to like a bit of spread to my stage, and even when the Ohms are closer together, they still do a good job, I just feel they are a bit more open when pulled apart to some degree.

I think this is one somewhat of a misconception, a lot of people think that the omni's can be just plunked down most anywhere and be okay, and while I think they are maybe a bit less fussy in general with positioning, one can still be rewarded greatly playing with positioning.

I still struggle a bit at times with the Shahinian Obelisk positioning, I like a lot of various positions with them and have a hard time making up my mind which is best for me. Good thing they too are on casters, wheel them around, makes life easier! Tim

By the way Map, just saw your comment in my virtual systems, sorry I rarely go on there. Guess I should check in every now and then! I did respond a bit to a couple of the posts there. Darn, is this the 2000th post on this thread? Good grief, we should have brought Rebbi back for that one....

Mapman do you own OHM? If not you should. You'd at least be their most passionate sales person. Don't mean to offend, just speaking the truth.