Re: Power for 5000
I am considering both a new power amp and later adding subs. It has been stated here and elsewhere these speakers need lots of power. Is the power needed for the bass driver or the rest of the drivers? If I add powered subs, does the 5000 still need the same amount of power as without the subs?
Current amp is c1990 B&K EX-442 ~180WPC @8Ohms. Thinking of D-Sonics.
Any and all comments welcome. |
D-Sonics are worth a try IMHO.
More recent models are better suited for use with a tube pre-amp I recall.
Current delivery/robust power supply is more important than just power/watts.
Using subs should offload low bass from mains and reduce demand on the main amp so lesser amplification might be used if a good sub or two is in the equation.
IMHO, OHMs right sized t o the room with optimal power amplification do not need subs, but using subs is certainly an option if desired. |
I should add that music is mostly classical of which a large portion is pipe organ and large scale orch. - sometimes w/organ & chorus (ie, Mahler 2).
With my B&K when I turn it up, sq sounds a bit choked and closed in. On chamber music sq is wonderfully rich and natural. |
Coot I think 180 wpc@8 ohms is enough. Before I got my McCormack (250 wpc), I was using 130 wpc amp and it sounded nice. The extra power was noticed primarily in the deep bass response, and you should be fine, particularly with classical music. Also remember that Ohms have an impedence of 6 ohms, which means your 180 watts will be over 200. |
Fore Coot, with classical/organ music, and OHM 5000s, 250-500 juicy watts from a good Class D amp or appropriately beefy Class A/B may well add value.
My Bel Cantos I use on OHM 5s are 500w/ch of good Class D. That should do it I would think, but extra power in reserve if needed can probably not hurt, though some caution to avoid overdriving might be in order in that my 500w/ch amps seem to never break a sweat and I have never tried anything even more powerful.
I'd do the amp right first and then determine if any need for subs. With organ music, they may or may not still add something of value if set up right, depending. |
Coot - If you review my more recent posts, you will see that my Odyssey Audio HT3 amp (w/ cap upgrade), which is rated at 150 watts/channel @ 8 ohms, was audibly clipping **in the midrange**, especially on vocals. I do run my Walsh 2000s with powered subs, but the Odyssey was struggling with the midrange. IMHO, I would go with a beefier power amp before I added subs to a pair of 5000s. You will still get plenty of bass out of the Ohms, and if your room is large, and your present amp is clipping, you could damage the 5000s. |
Thank you all for your sound advice (pun intended). I will go for the amps first - a pair of D-Sonic M2-1500s sometime in the Fall. |
Coot: At the rate I am going, you'll have your new amp before I will have mine, so when you do get it, please post your impressions. Thanks! |
Absolutely! I have learned much from you guys and other forums as well. Only fair to reciprocate.
My system is MacMini > M2Tech Hiface2 USB/spdif converter > M2Tech Young DAC > Placette VCU > B&K EX442 > Ohm Acoustics 5000s
Regarding the amps' break-in, can I run them with speakers off w/o damage? |
Coot, is that Placette VCU a Placette Audio passive linestage preamp? If so, you might have an impedance mismatch with the D-Sonic M2 which I believe have an input impedance of only 10Kohm. Actually there some confusion, is the D-Sonic M2 input impedance 10Kohm or 60Kohm? At 10Kohm it will give trouble (roll off highs) to resistor type passive preamp and some tube preamps. If the input impedance 60Kohm, there should be no problem. |
I'd check the input impedance spec of the newer D-Sonic amps.
The older ones were stock Icepower, 10K ohm input impedance, not a great match for most higher output impedance pre-amps, like most tube pre-amps. DOn't know about Placette specifically.
Newer D-Sonics use Pascal Class D modules I believe and I recall reading these have 40K or so input impedance, which is much better for use with high output impedance pre-amps.
I would confirm the D-Sonic output impedance specs though in that I am not 100% certain about specs of the newer D-Sonics. |
ALso if anyone is interacting with D-Sonic to buy, if you can ask them to confirm what Class D modules their newer amps use, I would really like to know for sure. Pascal Class D modules have been inferred elsewhere where I have read but not confirmed. I'm not sure the specs I see published on D-sonic site match Pascal or not. THat does not mean that those modules are not used and tweaked in some ways by D-Sonic, though I recall in the past D-Sonic seemed to merely put stock Icepower modules in a box with no apparent electronic mods. Not sure what D-Sonics expertise is to be able to do electronic tweaks as opposed to merely packaging amp modules from other sources. |
At D-Sonic website under the Product tab, the input impedance for the 600W and 1500W output M2 series are listed as 60Kohm. But I e-mailed Mr. Deacon last month asking him what is the input impedance of the M2-1200S and M2-3000S stereo amp. He replied 10Kohm. So I'm not sure, but 10Kohm should be fine for all solid state active preamps and most tube preamps. |
TObe,
10K ohm input impedance may be fine for many tube pre-amps, but I would just note that there are some Class D amps designed to work well with any pre-amp, inlcuding tube, like Wyred4Sound and Bel Canto, that introduce 60Kohm or higher input impedance for that purpose for best results in all cases. 10K may sound fine but could be more hit or miss for best results in terms of dynamics and low distortion IMHO. The reason is that most impedance ratings including those for pre-amp outputs are nominal for all frequencies but actual impedance varies significantly by frequency, so my opinion is that a high amp input impedance is a good insurance policy in order to be safe. |
BTW, I considered the older D-Sonic Icepower based amps at the time but ended up going with Bel Canto for significantly more cost. THe 10K input impedance rating of those older D-Sonics plus no special robust design for the Power supply to the IcePower module used were the main reasons. I use an ARC sp16 tube pre-amp. Who knows, maybe it would have worked out fine, butI have not regretted going the way I did. THe newer D-Sonics have more appeal for me, especially assuming the higher powered ones have 40K input impedance or higher. That is what I recall reading for Pascal Class D amp modules on the Pascal site, but not certain. Pascal amps also appeared to be stronger out of the box in terms of power supply, current delivery capabilities, and overall switching amp specs compared to older Icepower. Assuming those are what is used, I would expect the product to sound VERY good, at least if they live up to the specs on paper. Were I in the market for another amp today, the D-Sonics would be a much stronger contender than 2-3 years a go or so. |
First question for me is what Class D amp modules D-Sonic uses now. Most of what I have read has been speculation
Reading info on Pascal site again, Pascal may not be the most impressive Class D amp out there on paper compared to other newcomers I have seen mentioned as possibilities for D-Sonics, especially for some tube or other higher output impedance pre-amps, but for the price are still certainly worth consideration in any case. |
You are right but Wyred 4 Sound and other manufacturers include a buffer stage ahead of the Class D amp for the simple reasoning of increasing the input impedance, making it an easier match for tube preamps. I personally would prefer not to have the extra circuitry dressing and go all natural. |
Mapman, your ARC SP16 tube preamp has a output impedance of 260 ohms. Using the simple rule of thumb that the input impedance of your amp should have at least 10 times or more, the output impedance of your preamp, 260 ohms * 10 = 2.6Kohm. At 10Kohm for the D-Sonic M2, your ARC tube preamp would have no problems whatsoever. |
Tobe,
My approach in landing on the Bel Cantos was No Holds Barred, to try and land the best amps I could afford that looked best on paper. It worked out well, but you could be right, and I might have been able to save some dough accordingly.
I would like to compare the D-Sonic sometime. One may well be on my list again next time I am looking for an amp.
At least when the time comes, I feel I have a very excellent reference in place currently to compare others to. |
I exchanged several emails with Dennis a couple of months ago inquiring about the amp modules he is now using and he did confirm he was moving away from the ICE modules in some of his amps, but he never answered a direct question. Honestly, I found the whole exchange frustrating and decided to move on. I understand not wanting to give away trade secrets but a bit of info is warranted I believe. For me, I already own a PS Audio ICE-based amp and I want to know what flavor of class-d I'm buying. It's too bad because I was ready to make a purchase. |
Tobe,
My Placette is a volume control unit which uses Vashay resistors only. There is no other circuitry. I am running without any other preamp. IIRC it is 10k resistance and it works just fine with my B&K. I am not technically adept when it comes to electronics. When I get closer, I will ask Dennis about mating his amps to my system, of course.
Thanks for your input! |
Your B&k EX442 amp input impedance is 24Kohm and the Placette passive preamp is rather high at 2Kohm output impedance but both should work fine together. At 10kohm input impedance for D-Sonic M2 the high end will begin to roll off. Yes talk to Dennis when you are ready to make the purchase. |
Thanks. I was not aware there was much difference in amps' resistance. I don't want to add a preamp, but is that how to remedy the mismatch? |
Wow...
After being gone a while due to some health issues I realized that the five hundred or so posts had swollen to an amazing 1800+ LOL
I wanted to chime in about anchoring the Ohm's to the floor with more then those laughable casters (sorry John).
To realize the full potential of these speakers something had to been done. As my listening room is on a raised floor
not concrete, I figured I had to build a platform that would couple the speakers to the floor properly. I tried some plywood... No good.
Then on to 1/2" thick marble slab that was ok (still sitting on those silly casters from the 70's).
At this point I figured the speakers deserved something overwhelmingly solid that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
I did call my metal warehouse that promptly told me that they would be more then happy to cut my aluminum bases to size....$1300 thank you!!
So after NOT discussing the cost with my wife, I decided on concrete as the price was agreeable, and making the molds was a snap :-)
As you can see in the image Speakers were painted in an automotive dark grey urethane, stand-off's in stainless steel. The bases added an amazing
110 lbs of mass, and I added an additional 4+inches worth of height.
I always loved my Ohm's, but there was the image height that totally screwed with my enjoyment as it sounded like...... short people music.
Now I have a rock solid, correct imaging height, and fantastic dynamics.
I also had John install Bybee speaker bullets inside the speakers.
This system does duty for stereo and surround sound and it is pretty amazing
considering how much I invested in the system.
Here's the images of my Ohm's...
http://s185.photobucket.com/user/m7tuning/media/Ohm1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s185.photobucket.com/user/m7tuning/media/Ohm2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Peter |
Coot, your Placette passive preamp is very highly regarded. You just need to be sure the amp you are getting has an input impedance higher than 20Kohm. Talk to Dennis, maybe his amps really are 60Kohm input impedance which would be perfect with your Placette passive preamp. |
Ohm is currently offering a deal on driver upgrades to their 4000 series. I currently have both walsh 4's and 300mk11 any thoughts on the 4000 driver as a replacement for either of these speakers
Dennis |
Peter .. seriously gorgeous. Seems you have taken your Ohms to another level, quite literally. |
Regarding the OEM source of the amp modules in D-Sonics amps, if you read the 6Moons review, you'll see that Dennis ain't talkin'. IMHO, that's his prerogative. It's all about the sound. If the amp sounds good, what difference does it make, really, which amp modules he is using? FWIW, my McIntosh C220 works swell with my 10K ohm input resistance Odyssey Audio SS amp, even with 20' RCA runs and the Vandersteen outboard HP filters. No HF roll off that I can hear.
Peterr53: Thanks for the post. Fascinating. FWIW, my Walsh 2000s have no issue with image hieght. In most cases, the image reaches my 6' ceiling. I had Sound Ancors custom make solid, adjustable three-point spiked, cradle bases for my 2000s for around $325/pr. A real step up in imaging and transient detail. |
If you click several times on the open case D-Sonic M2 600 mono thumbnail, the print on the circuit clearly says Abletec Engineering. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?142204-d-Sonic-M2-600M-monoblocks-amp-Pics. |
Bondmanp, I look up the output impedance for your McIntosh C220, it's 250 ohm, so yes, no problem going into a 10Kohm input impedance amp. |
YEs, those pics have come up on another thread about M-Sonic.
ITs still not clear if that is what is being used by M-Sonic currently or not though.
Only the vendor or a customer who has purchased recently would be able to say for sure.
It really would be nice if the vendor would disclose what is used. Without that, they could change at any time for any reason and nobody would know in advance if they will not even answer the question when asked. |
Sorry, meant D-Sonic, not M. |
Why would Dennis Deacon risk hurting business sales by not releasing more info on his amps? It could be he is overly sensitive about disclosing proprietary information ever since getting Der Wienerschnitzeled by having his business model of selling inexpensive Ice amp on-line stolen by Wyred4Sound. |
The difference, at least historically, between D-Sonic and Wyred is D-Sonic merely puts existing third party amp modules in boxes with connectors to make a finished product. No special circuitry. Wyred and some others like Bel Canto add circuitry to stock power amp modules to tweak/improve performance as needed. That's a big difference! |
Bondmanp..
So the imaging was perfect on you're 2000's, before the Sound anchors?
And did I read 6' ceilings??? I wouldn't even be able to stand up straight in a room with that limited of headroom.
Everything is better after adding the mass to the speaker, dynamics, imaging
image height and it looks way more like a modern designed speaker.
Wtf..Thank you for the good word :-)
Peter |
Early on Dennis DID offer, as an option, a buffer stage to increase the input impedance of his amps but later discontinue it as he found it make no difference sonically even when using tube preamps. |
Tobe,
I suppose Dennis has his reasons and motivations for doing things the way he does.
I'm not judging it, just pointing out some differences between vendor's approaches and value propositions. M-Sonic is certainly one of the vendors that sets the bar in regards to low cost.
Take a look at Audio Research's Class D amps over the years. There is a company known for tube technology that has adapted Class D as well. I tend to trust what they do when designing CLass D amps to run best with tube gear. Whatever the real end benefits when listening are, I think they tend to do things pretty right, but they will never be the lowest cost option. |
But I'm with you and others who wish D-Sonic would be more open about their amps. |
I suspect most of D-Sonic customers are not running tube pre-amps. They are looking for best value in an amp mostly I suspect, and are probably not too concerned about technical details relating uniquely to tube gear. D-Sonic will certainly work with tube gear, though a more detailed investigation by tube gear owner would likely identify other options with something to offer, but probably for a premium. Most folks into tubes probably are less cost conscience than the masses I would guess. |
Peterr53: Perfect imaging? Is there such a thing? I never said perfect. I like the imaging I get with and without the stands. But my cement floor is uneven, and the speakers wobbled. With the bases, the center image is solid and stable, and I get less drift of left and right images, although I still get some. My room is far from perfect (it's evolving, slowly). I would like more depth, and a bid more even spread of the stage in front of me. But I did get some of both when I tried the Arion Audio RS500 amps (along with a lot of other improvements). Hence the quest for big power amps that I can afford.
Yes, I have 6' ceilings in my basement man cave (just like a real cave!). The steam pipes are boxed out and are even lower than 6' in spots. I am 5'8", so no problems, and mostly, I am sitting down anyway. It is the best place in my small home for a stereo/HT rig. There are many pros and cons, but the best is that I can crank it up to "11" at any hour and I disturb nobody; not the neighbors, not sleeping family members two flights up. |
A solid foundation is key to getting best performance out of the Walshes for sure!
My 5's are in the basement on thin carpet over concrete foundation! Rock solid and perfect! No problems.
My smaller 100S3s are on main level, with typical plywood floor structure used in most modern homes. That is always more problematic, especially since a lot of bass energy emerges via bottom port on the Walshes. Extent and details varies room to room, but I set the 100s on ceramic tiles at a minimum to help tame the bass in this case. I am interested in something more massive for these to sit on as well, especially in my wife's very lively and acoustically challenged sunroom, but extent of problem has not forced me to do anything more there yet. |
"Regarding the OEM source of the amp modules in D-Sonics amps, if you read the 6Moons review, you'll see that Dennis ain't talkin'. IMHO, that's his prerogative. It's all about the sound. If the amp sounds good, what difference does it make, really, which amp modules he is using?"
Bondmanp, I see your point but in our internet-centric audiophile world, competition almost demands disclosure. We are after all, obsessive-compulsive types and we NEED to know because it is also OUR prerogative to pass. There is simply too much competition to not disclose IMO. |
Wtf: Exactly! Dennis is not obligated to disclose information about his amps, and you are not obligated to buy one. Similarly, witness the absence of Magnepan reviews in Stereophile. Stereophile requires bench testing for all full reviews in the magazine. That's the editor's prerogative. Magnepan won't allow this bench testing, because of the unique nature of their speakers, which produces, in their view, test results inconsistant with the speakers' performance. Magnepan's prerogative, and an impass. So, no Stereophile reviews of Magnepan speakers. I guess Dennis would rather lose some sales than disclose information which he feels gives him a competitive edge. For every audiophile who skips D-Sonic amps because of this, there is probably another one, like me, who cares mostly about the way the sausage tastes, not how it's made. YMMV, as they say.
And, I must say, that this topic is very relevent to a thread on Ohm speakers, since John Strohbeen is somewhat quiet on some of the ingredients of his own special sauce. |
YEs, I thought the same thing regarding D-Sonic and JS/OHM.
One downside with OHM that results is that many CLS drivers look the same on the outside but are different by design internally. That makes it very hard to know exactly what you are getting second hand. Even direct from OHM, you do not know anything for sure really about whats inside, only how it sounds.
One difference is that what makes the OHM sound is JS/OHMs design, whereas in the case of D-Sonic, what makes it is determined by what amp module is used, and D-Sonic does not design or make that hence they have limited control of that over the long term. AMp A today, amp B tomorrow? How are they different? How is the sound affected, etc? Very hard to say, whereas with OHM I think JS designs his products to have a particular sound and he has a lot of control over how to do that, especially given the nature of Walsh drivers and how those are quite tunable to produce a certain result. |
As a manufacturer it blows me away that anyone would expect a manufacturer to just openly give away the specifics about anything he makes. In todays world with widespread copying of every single minutia, I congratulate Dennis for standing strong, and not give anyone proprietary info no matter how much you think he owes it to you. I had one of my parts stolen from me, copied all the way down to my own f*uck-up (misaligned holes) in a diverter and the offender (chinese) didn't give a crap if I was upset or if I would call my lawyer.
Peter |
Mapman: I am not sure I agree with you on Class D amps. While many Class D manufacturers take OEM modules, almost all of them have their own approach to power supplies, input stages, etc. AFAIK, the amp module itself can be made to sound drasticly different depending on the builder's choices for these and other parts of the finished product. Heck, your Bel Cantos use an OEM Class D module, don't they? Yet they are known to sound much better than other brands using the same modules. I could be way off on this, but even the D-Sonic amps include a circuit board and other parts of the signal/power chain that are of Dennis' own selection (if not design). Just my $0.02. |
" I could be way off on this, but even the D-Sonic amps include a circuit board and other parts of the signal/power chain that are of Dennis' own selection (if not design)."
Maybe, but I am under the impression that this is not the case from what I have read and seen to date. I do not know Dennis's background, but I get the impression from what I have read that this is not his area of expertise.
But you are right that many or perhaps most even (not sure) Class D amp vendors in recent years add circuitry to improve or tweak performance.
It's quite possible from what I read that with teh newer Class D amp module technologies available currently, there is little need to do much more. That may well be the case with D-Sonic now, though it was not the case when they were using Icepower as their main engine. |
My point is D-Sonic has been around for a while now and folks have already heard their previous iterations. The new amps are supposed to be improved. How so? New amp modules (plus whatever else). OK. Many of us have already heard class-d amps and have an idea of what they sound like in general and yes, every manufacturer has their own build/sound, but I would like a more compelling reason to try the amp(s) out other than "it/they sound great". If I want to take a chance I still have to pay for shipping and a restock fee.
"An in-home trial period of 21 days is available. This can be extended by email at the discretion of D-Sonic. If the unit is returned in factory condition and packaging, customer pays shipping both ways plus a 10% restock charge. Unit must be insured to full value."
So .. I don't expect any manufacturer to give away the farm so-to-speak but most will provide SOME info including what amp modules they are using (Bel Canto & W4S for example). No I'm not obligated to purchase, nor am I compelled. |
Peter,
I see this as a potential marketing mistake. At the end of the day, this is a hobbyist purchase. People frequently base their purchase decision on their view of the particular technology as much as the product's performance. If you could hide the fact that your SET amp employed 300B tubes, would you?
I sympathize with (and fully understand) the desire to protect your intellectual property (I'd NEVER download music illegally for this reason), but I suspect that D-Sonic will lose sales over this decision.
Of course, I could be wrong. |
"I sympathize with (and fully understand) the desire to protect your intellectual property (I'd NEVER download music illegally for this reason), but I suspect that D-Sonic will lose sales over this decision."
As do I and I would suspect Dennis is fully aware of the risk. Who can say if he will lose many sales, although I can say he lost a sale to me. |
