Ohm Walsh Micro Talls: who's actually heard 'em?

Thanks, Map. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Also for sharing your experience with others here!

"Oh, and the sub based on the old F cabinet looks like it might be a beast!"

How can you tell? I wanted to see it but could not find a photo.
Other than that its an excellent site!

Where is there an Ohm sub? I don't see it on John's site.

"John has been touting on his site"???
Touting? Hardly. He says go to the site for more information. Well there is very little information about any of his products. You have to pretty much call for any details (how does he get anything done if he's on the phone so much?). I keep hoping he will get the site redesigned but I've been hoping a long time and not much has changed.

Don't get me wrong - his products sound wonderful. I own a pair of 5000s and love 'em. I too am wondering what an F-5015 is. Guess I'll have to call, but a pic would be nice.

Help me decide which amp for my 5000s.
Currently 23yr-old B&K EX442, ~190wpc. John S. says I may need more power.
I'm interested in either W4S ST-1000 or VanAlstine 600R.
What I'm after is lower, fuller bass and less midrange congestion. Open to other suggestions, not to exceed $4k.

I was considering the NAD M2 but I'm a separates kind of guy.

Mapman,
Did you do a critical comparison between the BC's and the W4S? What was it that influenced your decision to pay the xtra?

Oh I've been running the b&K on the 5000's for 2 yrs. Well broken in and definitely make beautiful music together on solo piano and chamber music. But on large scale works they get congested. We also play quite a lot of pipe organ and I feel the bass is lacking support. Hence the desire for more power.

I am leaning towards the Van Alstine 600R because it's a hybrid valve/FET which may have a smoother top end than the W4S - more like what I am getting with the B&K but with tighter and lower bass.

What is your answer to those who whine that digital amps are not great in the treble - say with a soprano voice. Not sure specifically what they mean, but I've read that many times. A roughness I think. That's my fear about W4S in particular and somewhat the BC's.

Carja - Thanks for your input. A few years ago I was hot on McCormack 500 and then they seemed to fall off the map. Seem to be weak on marketing which makes me nervous - as in about to disappear from the scene.

I see your photos. Looks like you have limited space as I do for the 5000s. I have a lot of air space due to large openings, but there is no way I can put these 5 ft from the wall. 30-32 inches is it. I know the staging suffers, but otherwise a nice natural sound - on chamber music especially. I'm satisfied except the old B&K runs out of gas and gets screechy and congested when I turn it up.

If it's not out of the question for you, Carja, I can highly recommend computer audio for digital. I went Mac-and-DAC about 7 yrs ago and was sold immediately. Hi-resolution downloads really do sound better in my system - IMO.

My 5000s sit on a suspended hardwood floor. I firmed up the bass considerably by installing 3 FIM pucks shown here:

https://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/showProduct.cgi?id=325

under each speaker. No other modifications were made or added. Gets rid of vibration and resonance.

Blueranger,
What did you do to make them "blow". What are the symptoms - just no sound? Was there any strange noise just before?

I would call John S.

Ditto. I too would like user feedback on D-Sonics as I will be upgrading shortly.

Re: Power for 5000

I am considering both a new power amp and later adding subs. It has been stated here and elsewhere these speakers need lots of power. Is the power needed for the bass driver or the rest of the drivers? If I add powered subs, does the 5000 still need the same amount of power as without the subs?

Current amp is c1990 B&K EX-442 ~180WPC @8Ohms. Thinking of D-Sonics.

Any and all comments welcome.

I should add that music is mostly classical of which a large portion is pipe organ and large scale orch. - sometimes w/organ & chorus (ie, Mahler 2).

With my B&K when I turn it up, sq sounds a bit choked and closed in. On chamber music sq is wonderfully rich and natural.

Thank you all for your sound advice (pun intended). I will go for the amps first - a pair of D-Sonic M2-1500s sometime in the Fall.

Absolutely! I have learned much from you guys and other forums as well. Only fair to reciprocate.

My system is MacMini > M2Tech Hiface2 USB/spdif converter > M2Tech Young DAC > Placette VCU > B&K EX442 > Ohm Acoustics 5000s

Regarding the amps' break-in, can I run them with speakers off w/o damage?

Tobe,
My Placette is a volume control unit which uses Vashay resistors only. There is no other circuitry. I am running without any other preamp. IIRC it is 10k resistance and it works just fine with my B&K. I am not technically adept when it comes to electronics. When I get closer, I will ask Dennis about mating his amps to my system, of course.

Thanks for your input!

Thanks. I was not aware there was much difference in amps' resistance. I don't want to add a preamp, but is that how to remedy the mismatch?

Aside from maintenance issues, what would be your reason(s) for not using a tube amp for for Ohms? Just curious as I understand 100W tubed = ~500W SS.

Thank you guys for your comments. I have no plans to move to tubes, just something I have not seen mentioned wrt amps for Ohms. Really a moot point as I plan on upgrading my 5000s to some form of the powered F with the 15", keeping my original cans.

I asked John about them and he said maybe he could use my existing drivers and a 15" to do a custom pair. I am not thrilled with the prospect of shipping my 5000s 3,000 miles to him, however. I'm afraid it's gonna be awhile before I seriously take it up with him. It's just speculation for now, but it's nice to know it can be done.

I like things squared up as much as possible, so when I first installed my 5000s, I set them facing straight forwards. I have been happy with the sound, but being an audiophile ("It's good but maybe it can be better."), the other day I was adjusting them to angle outwards so the label points towards the seating more.

My wife wanted to know why. If they are omnidirectional, what difference should it make? I truly did not have a good answer other than because there's a sticker - that's why. I knew my answer didn't satisfy either one of us, so what should I have said?

Thanks, Mapman. I knew this, but like I said, I like the squared-off look. I'll talk to John to see if there's any reason the cans can't be pivoted 30-degrees or so. That would take care of it for my room.

Question WRT Ohm 5000 power and bass. It has ben said that adding wattage may obviate the need for subs. I need lower bass, not just firmer or louder bass.

Interesting you mention Bryston. I am looking to replace my B&K with a new amp. So far I am considering Bryston 4BSST2 (300W 8Ohms)-$4995, Van Alstine 600R (300W 8Ohms)-$3500, D-Sonic M2-1500 (1500W 8Ohms)-$2800. Not sure I want to blow the extra $$ for the Bryston. Right now, looks like I will try the D-Sonics. Speakers are Ohm Acoustics 5000s. Budget: $5k max. Any comments appreciated.

Thanks Mapman. That helps.

I just pulled the trigger on a pair of D-Sonic M3-1500s. Yipee!!!

Report to follow. My hope is that the midrange on up is at least as sweet as my B&K.

D-sonics due to be here 8/15.

Don't expect too much from me, guys. I'm pretty much a conservative classical listener. We only have music on for serious listening - as opposed to background; approx. 10-12 hrs/wk. I have VERY limited knowledge of electronics, although I did go 100% computer audio 4 years ago. My hearing is still pretty good even at 73. I don't change components very often - averaging 20ys for speakers and amps.

Don't say I didn't warn ya. I'll do what I can...

Mapleshade solid copper work well for me for speakers and for power.

Thanks, guys. Done.

D-sonic M3-1500 my first impression.

Out of the box, I am pleasantly surprised at what I am hearing. Be advised, I have nothing to compare them to but my old B&K EX442 and it is no longer connected so no AB. I was concerned about loosing mid and upper range sweetness, but am no longer worried about that. What I have gained - and almost goes without saying - is a substantial bottom end and generally fuller sound. I notice no high range digital edginess or screech. I should mention here that I am soon to hit 73, so take that with a little of salt I suppose. As to my background, I am a recovering music teacher and studied and have heard all instruments play live singly and in orchestras and bands.

Music I listened to was orchestra, solo men and women's voice, choral, string quartet and other chamber groups, brass bands, and finished off with St-Saens' Organ Symphony - Ormandy, Philadelphia w/Michael Murray - Still the best version to my ears. It was an excellent finish. I will say, that I feel Ohms are finally living up to my expectations in the bass department. Some of you have said more power might obviate any desire to add subs. I'm in full agreement with that assessment and I appreciate your suggestions!

System: PS Audio Power Plant Premier > 2009 Mac Mini (AIFF files) > M2Tech Hiface2 USB to SPDIF converter > M2Tech Young DAC > Placette Remote Volume Control Unit > D-sonic M3-1500 (2x mono) > Ohm Acoustic 5000. Power and Speaker cabling is Mapleshade solid copper except amp power cables are std mfg.

Tobe:

There is a brief manual that covers all M3 amps. I asked Dennis about impedance. He replied as follows "The M3-1500Ms have a 60k ohm input impedance which will assure a high common mode rejection factor."

I find volume settings are no different that what I am used to with the B&K.

Hope this helps. More remarks to follow when I've done more listening. Make that when "we" have done more listening. My wife is more sensitive to pinched, screechy string sound than I am.

Re: D-sonic

I have to renig just a bit on my comment about treble sweetness. Today it is not as sweet as we would like. Still some digital edginess in upper violin range. Overall the sound is not as open as we would like as well, but still breaking in. To be continued...

Mapman:"changes to input might address that."

My thought exactly. Wyred4sound DAC 2DSDse is on order.

Also, D-sonics now have been running over over 60 hrs. I'll check for sq in a few more hrs.

Just spent 2 hrs listening after 66 hrs break-in. Not much better. Looking forward to new DAC.

Final report on d-sonic M3-1500s. To make it short - They're going back. After 100+ hrs, shrillness still there - I mean "gives us headaches" shrill. Good kick in the low end, but that's all the good I can say. Connected my new W4S DAC2 DSD-se hoping to make it better. No change in sq al all. Put the B&K back in. The bass is deeper and sound is cleaner with more detail throughout with no digititis. I am v-e-r-y happy with this DAC. Sorry the amps didn't work out but glad you suggested to try a better source, Mapman! Later I may try the AVA 600R, but we will live with the B&K for awhile as it has whetted our appetite for deeper bass, etc.

Ncore-12 may be a good solution. I have not heard one and can't afford $12k anyway.

Well Guido, you seem to be knowledgeable on the subject. I was going by Dennis' figures of 40-100 hours based on users experiences. I have already sent them back, so I can't experiment. After 100+ hrs neither my wife nor I could tell it had made any difference whatsoever. Further listening was painful - literally. You may be correct, but compared to my sweet old B&K it was no contest.

Interesting thing is, we became so enamored with the new W4S Dac that we have at least for the time being decided the B&K is doing to job just fine. Bass - which is what I wanted improved, now IS. Every aspect of the listening experience has improved dramatically. Better soundstage (I now know what the word means!), detail, correct tonal coloring, etc, etc. I used to read that Ohms were "good speakers, but not the last word in detail'. Well mine are, now!

As for amp burn-in, if I manufactured amps, or any component, I would feel it incumbent to burn-in before shipment as long as necessary. I thought they did that. Guess some do, some don't.

I probably won't be dippin' my toe in the class D pond again anytime soon.

Interesting write-up, WTF.
I too have gone to Amarra Sym w/iRC. I have the Ohm 5000s and was hoping for more than I got. The result was a flat range alright, but overall flat sound as well, i.e. the life was sucked out of the music. I started with very uneven bass which iRC fixed nicely, but the rest did not need much fixing, so I set the high cutoff point to 200 Hz and the life came back.

I am happy with the results. Now If only I could configure the speakers to fill the hole in the middle better. Not much space to work with moving them around.

Yes. The 5000s are 6.5 ft apart on centers. Between the speakers is a 44-inch doublewide Mapleshade equipment shelf. The wall behind is 11.25 ft. wide, the speaker centers are 28 in. from the rear wall. The side walls are 30 inches from the speaker centers. The speaker cabinets are 13 in. square and are angled outwards approx. 4 degrees to aid in directing the high frequencies to the listener.

The listening sofa is 9.5 ft from each speaker. The left seat of the 2-seat sofa is the "prime" one although I can't tell any difference between the 2. I used the "sofa" configuration for the XTZ mics. Ceiling height is 9 ft. There is much more "room" description as it has 3 openings and flows readily out to some roughly 13,000 cubic ft of living space.

To the left of the listener is a small upright piano. To the right is a 48-ft opening. Behind the listeners is a 60-inch opening. Behind the left shoulder of the sofa is a 30-in. opening. No openings have closable doors.

So, even though I have called this a "room", it is very much open to the living quarters. It is a repurposed formal dining area.

----

Music is mostly classical - full orchestral, pipe organ, chamber, choral, opera, etc.

Bottom line is, yes there is a discontinuance of the soundstage all the away across. And it's not terribly deep either. The omnidirectionality of the Ohm design gets me by pretty well for large-scale works. For more intimate recordings there is more sound left and right, but somewhat empty in the center. If I stand close in, there is a definite centering of instruments that are supposed to be there, particularly in solo singers. For example, Willie Nelson voice and his picking' is more centered and as I back away, he moves to the right.

I have experimented with different angling so as to get the tweeter aimed to the listener, but nothing seems to really solve it. I am more or less reigned to waiting until we can move to a house with a real music room.

Are Ohms less capable of true imaging than non-omni types?

Thanks for your suggestions, W. I believe I will follow your advice in the last line.

Re Amarra/iRC:
Did you get the setup on the first try? Was SQ immediately an obvious improvement? Did you experience any sparkle missing? I have no knowledge of any other Ohm owners using iRC. Perhaps some will chime in here now.

My level of dissatisfaction with iRC is not great. I tried a DSPeaker Anti-Mode when they first came out. I could not detect a significant improvement so I returned the unit. Add that experience to this one and I have sort of concluded that my space is not particularly bad other than being too small (is-speakers closer to walls than optimum. All I really wanted was to smooth out the bass and iRC ha accomplished that pretty well. Now I will try tweaking speaker placement, etc to get better imaging if possible.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, guys.

Appears not many folk left at this thread, but I'll throw this out there.

1. A pair of Hephaestus Harpoctrates amps on order.
2. Installed a Light Harmonic Lightspeed USB cable (yes, the $999 one) between my Mac Mini and Wyred-4-Sound Dac 2 DSDse. All I can say is worth every penny! Gorgeous life-like SQ.

Thanks Mapman,
I'll try to contact him.

I'm on temporary hold tip I get my refund from Peachtree. I bought the Grand Integrated on sale but sent it back. The thought of combining was so tempting. Get rid of some wires and boxes - simplify, etc.

But. While bass was good, there was no realism. Pasty gray would be my description. Construction not in the big leagues either. Didn't take long to regret that decision. So back to separates it is.

Thanks Martykl.

I think step one will be upgrade power amp(s). Then see (rather hear) where to go from there.

Regarding EQ, I am using Amarra w/iRC. I calibrated closely following their instructions but did not care for what it did to the upper range, so a modified the graph by stopping its effect above 1k IIRC. But it did a good job smoothing out the mid-bass, which is really all I wanted. Of course it does not help with bass extension.

I listen almost exclusively to "classical" music - chamber, piano, choral on up to large-scale works and organ (which to me is also large-scale). My 5000's sound fine on the first three. Really fine. On the large-scale, they leave much to be desired. Of course there are obvious limits to reproducing the sounds of 100+ instruments in one room in my house - or even the whole house for that matter. But I still wonder if there is anything I can do to get closer to a "bigger" sound.

Ohm 5000s, B&K EX442 (185wpc/8)

-Al

Martykl
When a crescendo builds, the louder it becomes, the more constricted the sound. Cymbal crashes are less natural, although live cymbal crashes have always been mostly uncontrolled noise by nature. (Thinking back to high school band days here.). Yes, I would say that loud organ is lacking bass - i.e. St Saens 3 ending.

Mapman
Music "room" is a converted formal dining area 11x13 that is has wide archways opening to kitchen, great room and entryway on 3 sides. It's ceiling is 8ft but the ceiling of the great room and entry is 17'. What i'm saying is there is a lot of air space to be loaded - estimate approx. 13,000 cf. Listening sofa is 9' from spkrs which are 5.5' oc apart. Construction is suspended wood floor and drywall. Thick rug in front of spkrs. First reflection sides are covered.

Your suggestion of high-current/high-power class D amplification is one I am considering. Right now I'm waiting for some of the new technology/models said to be arriving this fall. Apparently lots happening in that arena.

Thank you both.