I doubt changing the preamp will give you a wider soundstage.
37 responses Add your response
Speaker placement is the key. Play around with it and see if you get better results. Use a tape measure and a big dry-wall T Square to help you get exact placement. You'll need to consider the distance from the front wall (the one behind your speakers), the side walls and the listener position. You'll also need to consider speaker toe-in and tilt. Do you have the instructions that came with the Vandy's? If not, I think its on-line at the Vandersteen site. Richard is pretty specific about placement. Once you have your speaker position optimized, you can consider electronics upgrades. But I think your wasting your money with electronics until you first get speaker placement optimized. The only caveat may be the Dual TT setup. I'm not familiar with that TT and you don't mention what cartridge you're using. Is it the only source? Do you have another source you can try? Does it produce the same soundstage issue you are hoping to resolve? |
"I doubt changing the preamp will give you a wider so" over 2000 posts and you are still giving dubious advice? yeesh. the type of preamp a person uses and whether is uses SS vs tube is a well-supported concept, with literally thousands of pages of forums delving into this concept. The Saga would be a good start, it has tubes which is well-known for giving a either a larger soundstage, or at the least "sounding" like a larger soundstage. Let me explain. There is a concept in audio that certain electronic devices give off different types of distortion: higher order harmonics (a type of distortion) versus lower order harmonics (distortion). the tube distortion is, to me and many others, the preferable type of distortion, b/c it doesn’t hurt your ears as much as from the SS, AND b/c it exudes a sonic "presence", meaning that tubes will often exude a wider and deeper sense of space ... IOWs = soundstage. I’ve used tubes for 10 years, and I’ve been in your position. The Saga is good, but it only has one 6sn7 tube. Its a great tube, and it will provide an audible difference in soundstage I believe. But it is only a smaller change. I would encourage you to get a PreAmp with 2 tubes for the more significant soundstage that you are after. for example, I have and use the Schiit Lyr 2. It is both a preamp and headphone/HP amp. it has 2 tubes (ECC88 type which will take a few different types of tubes: 6922, 6dJ8, etc). The Lyra 2 is listed under HPs on the Schiit site. The preamp section is intended for smaller desktop systems, and has a hi/lo gain. I use it will a full-sized bookshelf system with a pair of tube monoblocks I built and a pair of Zu Omens. It sounds fantastic, and I change the hi/lo gain depending on the source (LP vs DAC, etc) and the recording. modern recordings are fine on low gain. older recordings (70s) often need higher gain. (the Lyr only has 1 input, so you may want to get an external device with more inputs, Schiit makes one in fact, but only allows 2 ins, but there are very good options out there) The Freya would be great: it has 4 6sn7 tubes and all the tube/ss/passive options. if you dont need the XLRs, dont worry, just dont use them. It is an unbelievable price for what the Freya offers. IOWs, you can get a used Lyr2 for the price of a new Saga. And you can get a used Freya for the price of a new Lyr 2. I would say, just go for it. you have a good supportive system and great Vandersteens! one of the best selling audiophile speakers of all time |
In my opinion, just about all your equipment could be upgraded for a better soundstage. The Adcom is a great amp, but if it hasn't been serviced lately, I would look into it. I think Musical Design does upgrades for Adcom and they weren't very expensive. (In fact, I just sold my 555. I found it to compare favorably to my McCormack DNA-1-which is 20 years younger). The NAD preamp would be my first choice to upgrade, though. If you can provide a budget, maybe we can give some suggestions. Lastly, the Dual, though a renown workhorse, could either be upgraded or at the least, have a new cartridge installed. Since I have gone to the digital side, I can't give any recommendations. The Vandies are probably the best part of your system and will sound better with each improvement you make. HTH Bob |
I've setup quite a few pair of Vandersteen 1/2/3 series of speakers. IMHO, the most crucial setup aspect is the TILT back. This time aligns the speaker drivers to your listening position. Get this right and set just a smidgen of toe-in and you'll get a pretty decent soundfield. I agree with the few above that you could upgrade most of your gear. |
+1 1Graber and others. I totally believe changing the preamp -- and perhaps the amp -- will give dramatic sonic advantages. Not familiar with Vandersteen speakers, but am sure people who commented above are right. Oh, yes -- a cartridge change always offers huge possibilities for improvement in sound. What do you currently have? What kind of budget do you have? G |
"I doubt changing the preamp will give you a wider soundstage" Wrong! The NAD's always sound too dark and confined to me. The GFA555 is capable of a very nice wide sound stage indeed. If I were the OP I would find a GFP565 this is a great sounding pre amp and they cost around $300 used. Sold new for $800 and it has a great phono section too. Matt M |
I too wonder about the Nad, but also how it combines with the warmish sounding Vandys. the OP is hoping for a bigger sound stage but doesn’t say anything about his cables. Some clean open sounding speaker cables might be just the trick. I’d suggest Morrow Audio in this case, they have good silver content. |
+1 mattmiller! Changing to an Adcom GFP565 preamp would be a beneficial upgrade! I also think that your phono cartridge (unspecified) is a limiting factor. I have found mc cartridges to be superior to mm types. I recommend a Denon 103R as a very good low-cost mc cartridge that will work well on your Dual 1019 TT. |
roberjerman Regarding fuses and speaker wire - neither will give you an improvement in sound quality - regardless of what the "golden ears" crowd says! I have been in this hobby for 40+ years and am appalled by the level of "magical" thinking about wire (and now fuses)! Hucksterism to entrap the gullible! Uh, once I got to the part about, “ I have been in this hobby for 40+ years and...” I stopped reading. Was that wrong? 🙄 |
I have had a GFA555 and a GFP750 for my vinyl system for many years and I also have a NAD c165BEE preamp in another system. I've paired both preamps with my other amps - McIntosh MC2200 and Vincent SP-331 and none gave me the wide/deep soundstage I was looking for. So I decided to try a tube preamp - Aric Audio Unlimited, and the difference was shocking. I ultimately left the Adcom system the same because of the good phono stage in the GFP750 but the combination of the Unlimited with either of the other amps throws a huge soundstage - same speakers (Vandersteen 2Ci), same location, etc. The moral of the story is; if you want a soundstage and don't want to spend thousands on a mega SS preamp, try a tube preamp, even a moderately priced piece could give you what you want. The lush and charming sound is the icing on the cake. |
Forgot to add that the Unlimited also has a decent phono stage, its a hybrid SS/tube circuit but sounds real good. Or you can just get an all tube phono stage preamp from Aric at a couple hundred $ less. By the way, I'm a little confused by OPs reference to Saga. The Schiit preamps, Saga, Freya, etc., are all line stage. Mani is their only phono stage preamp if Dual is your only source. |
no Geoff, not wrong, just reality-based. Soundstage can be improved with many things, as stated above, from the Dual to the cartridge, to the phono stage to the cables, to his amps. But this guy just wants to make one or two simple upgrades. (and I cant suggest Morrow, based on my prior experience with them and their cables). Dude, your system is fine. Suggest that you do what most of us do, replace one piece of equipment at a time. Save your money, and a few months down the road, replace another piece of equipment. And on and on. that is the great thing about this hobby, it will continue to grow and change for the better over time. that is where the fun is! But it is true that the source has to be a good quality to keep good sound quality from source to speakers. SQ only degrades from source to speakers, it does NOT improve along the way. it will change, yes, but you cant recover resolution after you have lost it. However, the Schiit tubed preamps you are looking at do NOT have a built-in phono stage like the NAD 162, so if you swapped your preamp, then you would still have to have a phono stage. Tubed preamps with built-in phono stages tend to get expensive quickly. And generally speaking, phono stages built into preAmps tend to be of lower quality. Even though the NAD 162 is a perfectly capable preamp, the phono stage probably is not that well supported, more of an accessory, and likely part of the reason you are not getting the soundstage you want, as posted above. IMO/IME, the cheapest route to get what you want would probably be a SS external phono stage running into a small tubed preamp. That will make a very noticeable difference in your sound quality AND soundstage. I would suggest the German made Clear Audio mini phone stage. I have one myself for 3-4 years now. Before I bought it, I walked into an AV store in San francisco and asked the TT/Turntable guy, "Which phono stage would you recommend for around $500? The Clear Audio Nano v2, he said. Then I asked him, which phono stage he would suggest for $500-$1000? ..... The Clear Audio Nano v2 he said, the same one he said before. ! The Clear Audio Nano V2 is here: http://clearaudio.de/en/products/electronics-nano_phono_v2.php it runs MM and MC, can specify some filters like subsonic, etc. New = $500, used = $250. And to reconsider, perhaps getting a better phono stage would be your first buy. Run the Dual into the Clear Audio and then into the inputs of the NAD 162, then add the tube preamp which will put a smile on your face. good luck |
Treating your room properly with bass traps and diffusors will give you improvements greater than the equipment upgrade your contemplating IMO. It can be DIY, or with the many cost effective suppliers. You can do treatments in steps, and if your willing to go all in, the transformation will be startling. LP |
Anybody remember the AudioPulse reverberation device? It allowed one to dial in various settings: "small club" all the way up to "cathedral"! It contained a two-channel amp to be connected to a pair of speakers behind the listener. And it gave surprisingly good results when used judiciously! This was back in the mid-70's before HT. |
The soundstage consists of width and depth. That's why room treatments are being recommended. Using absorbtion and/or diffusion panels will help shape the soundstage and focus the image. Regarding a preamp, the Schiit Freya may be worth an audition due to the use of the 6SN7 tube, plus a return policy. |
dude !!!!! pretty sure my Dad had a 1965 Dual 1019 with a V15 Type II and i am not knocking it... i think you have been given excellent advice to download tge model 2 manual for free and rigorous setup by the book. I assume you have tge Soundanchor stands ? after you get that squared away ( not literally ) then perhaps consider some of the gear listed above..... as some have said without knowing what cartridge you are running in the German semiautomic stacker, I would advise a preamp change... we were one of the biggest NAD dealers in America, I know the...he&& still have a 3020 a in the garage.... |
+3 lpretiring My soundstage became larger/bigger/deeper only after I installed room treatments, and I'm listening to SS, not tubes. I'm using Primacoustic panels, purchased from Sweetwater Sound. No vested interest, just a happy customer. Read Jim Smith's book Get Better Sound. Do what it says, before you spend any more $ on gear. Your room will dictate 50% of what you hear. |
I disagree that changing preamps will not give you are wider soundstage. Definitly try a tube preamp. I had owned Adcom 555 in the past. While they can be a very good sounding piece of equipment, they can be somewhat cold and clinical, especially pairing solid state with more solid state. I made a huge improvement in my soundstage by replacing my solid state preamp with a vintage tube unit. Namely a Dynaco Pas3. I have graduated to Audio Research tube preamps over the years, never going back to solid state preamps. Good luck, Mg16 |
I've owned pretty much every Vandersteen speaker from the 1's all the way up to my current Quatro's. While I agree that changing preamplifiers can definitely affect the soundstage, I don't think that it should be your first move. As said before, Vandersteeen's are very sensitive to positioning, especially tilt. It can make a night and day difference. They also need space to breathe, so set up is very crucial. It also happens to be free. I know that the idea of buying a shiny new toy is always appealing, lord knows I've fallen victim too more times than I'd like to admit, but no matter how good your front end is, if the speakers aren't position properly, you'll never get all the potential out of your system. Look at it this way, its something you're gonna have to do either way. I'm spoiled because the local Vandy dealer is one of my best friends, so anytime I make any changes he comes over with his laser levels and spends the day making adjustments. Its tedious but make a HUGE difference. |
I can appreciate all the suggestions for room treatments, but isn't that like putting lipstick on a pig? I mean, room affects sound/stage, but wouldn't a person want to start with the equipment first? And room treatments, at least good ones, are very expensive. Look at the OPs list of gear, I dont see that the GIK stuff is similar in pricing. I mean, suggesting one GIK would cost more than his preamplifier or other piece of equipment. IOWs, it does not make sense to me. Yes, the room traps/diffusers will help him, but at what price? and then he never figures out which parts of his audio chain hinder the soundstage. |