glupson ...
"In general, when it comes to reading about tweaks, I find it unexpected that all the tweaks seem to be for the better. I do not know if I have ever read a negative tweak story. "
I other threads I've talked about the benefits of the Herbie's products. I'm using their tube dampeners throughout the system. I'm also using Herbie's feet under my CD player. These items improved the sound significantly. I also tried Herbie's Black Hole CD dampener and heard no improvement what-so-ever. I reported that as well. One A'gon member asked me via PM if I wanted to sell the Herbie's Black Hole CD mat, and I just mailed it to him free of charge. Subsequently, he told me that it did have a positive effect using it in his CD player. Rather than bashing the product as ineffective, I remained neutral, thinking that it was perhaps system dependent. Turns out, that was the case. I call 'em as I see 'em ... nothing more, and nothing less. As for the patent numbers, this question has been raised before. If memory serves me correctly, I think there were two patents. For the numbers, you might talk to Krissy personally when you order your two new Omega+ E-mats. :-) Frank |
oregonpapa,
You did find a tweak that did not improve whatever it was supposed to improve. Have you ever experienced any that actually made it worse? Such reports are really sparse with the caveat that I do not sift through them meticulously.
I could find two patents under Mr. Mrock’s name in the U.S.A. Both seem to be for contact enhancer. Omega E Mat info mentions that no physical contact is needed so I thought those patents may be irrelevant in this case. Am I wrong? Could contact enhancer improve contact in decidedly contactless environment?
Omega E Mat+ info claims double the power of the original one due to two-sided approach with more of the patented effect. Is that some other patent not under Mr. Mrock’s name, maybe licensed from another entity?
Not skeptical, just curious about the way things are allegedly working.
|
glupson ... Sorry, I don’t have the answers to your questions. I’m not privy to any information re: patents, formulas, processing ... nada. Tim was tight-lipped and held things very close to his chest when it came to that kind of information. Over the years, I’ve tried numerous tweaks that actually degraded the sound. Shrink-wrap on the tonearm. Two layers were good. Any more than that and the sound became dulled. Mu Metal ... too much and the sound dulls. Various contact enhancers that sounded great in the beginning, then degraded over time and had to be removed. Expensive CD enhancements that rolled off the highs and had to be abandoned. Tube rolling that was unsuccessful. Various footers, some good and some bad. With over 40 years in the hobby, I’ve tweaked a lot, and some were successful and others not. What can I say more about the PPT products and the SR products that I’ve reported on, and recommended here, other than give me a little trust? The best thing to do is to read the other member’s posts and see what they’ve found using products that I’ve recommended. They can’t all be charlatans, right? Take care ... Frank |
oregonpapa,
It is refreshing to read about "unsuccessful" tweaks. Not because I want them to fail, but because it all seems a bit more balanced. Just notice how rarely you will encounter statements that you, I must admit bravely, just made. Others do not seem to be that forthcoming. Or, maybe, they are just luckier than you and they had no failures.
I hope to get to the description of that patent. It is a part of description/advertisement (sales pitch, I guess) on the website. No matter how tight-lipped the inventor was, once it is patented it should be traceable somewhere and somehow. Maybe I will be luckier tomorrow. Maybe someone has already found it and is willing to share that, usually, public info.
|
Ok, I accede to Frank's more magnanimous nature and apologize to everyone. I promised to uphold a standard of decency on this thread---I have broken with that.
In the past, I have been protective of PPT products because Tim, the originator, was trying to get off the ground, and his offerings worked so well, I was spared the desire to upgrade. With each addition, some sent gratis, I have become more appreciative of the results--and of my modest system.
Lately, with Tim's passing, I and others have been supportive of she who remains to carry forth the business and legacy. She is determined, she is generous, she is mourning. We want her to succeed. I would have to say I'm a bit selfish in that, because these products are extremely important--and to some of the most avid system builders. |
I feel the same way, jafreeman. Tim, Krissy and I became friends over time. I want these products to succeed too, for Krissy's sake, of course, but also for the advancement of the hobby ... and for the enjoyment that other hobbyists will get out of them. This really is a giant leap forward and it deserves success.
Frank |
Have been asked to return to this thread.
My apologies to Glupson for my unseeming behavior.
However he does need to get out a bit more and read some more threads.
I for one ,along with Frank, Ozzy ,BDP24 just to name a few, have more than once reported on tweaks that did not perform as hoped for.
Now that goes NOT mean they do not work period, just that they did not work for us at that time in our present system configuration.
I still firmly believe that it is all about system synergy.
What may be reported to work well for one may very well underperform for someone else.
That does not mean it is a bad product or does not work.
I for one have returned solid copper core speaker cables for a full refund as they just bloated the bass to horrible extremes in my rig. Others report good things about them.
If it appears that PPT products have a near universal success rate then it is what it is.
A great product by a great designer sadly no longer with us. |
Frank,
Thanks for your balanced info about various tweaks that were good and others that were bad. You also said, "various contact enhancers that sounded great in the beginning, then degraded over time and had to be removed." In what time periods did it take for them to degrade? This might be true about Total Contact as well. How long have you used it? We don't yet know how long it might take to degrade, and whether it will be able to be removed totally if this is indeed possible.
|
Sad story and I understand parts of why a few of you would get so emotional.
Going back to this particular Omega E Mat+, after noticing differences, has anyone investigated further? Info on the website implies more of something that is patented. Has anyone been curious enough to attempt to figure out why the Mat works? Not just "less RFI" or whatever else has been mentioned in this thread. What is this patent, that seems crucial in the story, all about?
It is great when the product works, but is anyone curious what makes it tick? And the answer may be relatively close. Does the packaging have some info about it? Years ago, even Matchbox cars mentioned patents on their underside.
No, don’t call me skeptic, call me curious and eager to learn. |
Are any PPT Mat owners former (or even current) users of older related products such as the Shakti Stone, any of Jack Bybee's products, etc.? |
glupson,... Sad story and I understand parts of why a few of you would get so emotional. In this case I doubt that you do understand. We all have wondered how the mats work and have asked Tim in the past, and Tim has been clear that he prefers to not share the technical details about how his products work. I do not in any way think this is your intent, but your not respecting his clearly stated wishes at this time is in bad taste. |
jetter,
I do not mean to disrespect his wishes, no matter how unusual they may be.
However, I could have never guessed that a person would not be allowed to ask about something clearly posted on the website. In particular, about something that is frequently posted elsewhere for everyone to see.
Try to understand that most of us have not known the man and do not know anything about him, or his wishes. Much less about his work.
I will leave it at that. |
glupson said... "Has anyone been curious enough to attempt to figure out why the Mat works? It is great when the product works, but is anyone curious what makes it tick?'
You can buy one and take it apart to see what makes it tick.Other than that...I doubt you will get any help from PPT.
|
aolmrd1241, I will have to give up on that. Just like everyone seems to have given up. |
Not given up Glupson.
Substitute " don't care how or why"
It really is that simple. |
Bdp24.
Yes I had a stack of Shakti Stones scattered around my rig.
I was never 100% convinced they made a real audible difference.
The PPT mats and eCards are in a different league entirely.
An instant change that only got better over the following weeks.
I sold all the Stones on eBay and here...... |
uberwaltz, I understand that. I do not understand "no questions allowed" approach, though. Don't care "why" anymore. |
Glupson.
I am not sure I have actually ever seen the verbiage " no questions allowed" myself, but I do not read every post.
I would have said it was more akin to " ask whatever you like but do not be offended if you do not get your answer"
Tbh, I never cared how or why, science cannot explain a LOT of stuff no matter what some would try and have you believe.
The acid test was and always will be for myself.... What does it sound like?
And life is good! |
RF and EMI absorbing sheets are quite common in industry, relatively inexpensive, and easily sourced. The technology has been around for a long time. For high frequencies, typically carbon black, graphene, etc. embedded in a polymer, for lower frequencies, magnetic materials such as ferrite, fine iron powder embedded in a polymer (and of course hybrids). When exposed to EMI, the particles self-resonate and convert the EMI to heat. Sometimes there is a conductive layer to shield and/or to cause the EMI to reflect back through the material for more absorption. The particle sizes/material are tuned or varied to cover different frequencies.
|
viber6 ... Thanks for the question regarding contact enhancers. My experiments with contact enhancers began over 15 years ago. If I remember correctly, the degradation of these products took place over a period of months. While some were very effective initially, they all eventually began to dull the sound, mainly in the high frequencies. Enter Tim and his "Total Contact" contact enhancer. Tim contacted me via PM around three years ago and asked me if I would like to beta-test the product. I told him not a chance because of my previous experiences. Over about a three-week period of trying to convince me, he finally did. On the PPT "Total Contact" ... I have had some contacts treated for around three years now with no degradation. When I talked to Tim about this, he said that he did some custom work on circuit breaker panels for customers over ten years ago, and still no degradation. To further discuss your questions; the Total Contact dries to a hard plastic-like material. That is the "curing" process that I alluded to in many posts. This is why one has to have patience with it. In some applications, it will degrade the sound initially. When I did the inside of my power conditioner, for example, I used an entire tube of TC to get the job done, and laid it on thick. It sounded like crapola for at least a week and a half. Bass became muddy, and the mid-bass was almost non-existent. The system was boring to listen to. Tim kept ensuring me that everything would come back better than ever. Sure enough, it did, and I was more than delighted with the results. During the curing process after pasting the "normal" connections, like spade lugs, IC and PC’s, there wasn’t a degradation, but an improvement. After pasting the "normal" connections, Tim told me that I would hear a big jump in SQ at four weeks and then another BIG one at eight weeks. Sure enough, right on schedule, there it was. It was the curing process taking effect. The improvements in SQ at both of those time periods were quite dramatic. You shouldn’t be concerned about removing the TC. A cotton swab and rubbing alcohol will remove it rather easily. Hope this answers your questions. Frank |
uberwaltz, I am not sure I have actually ever seen the verbiage " no questions allowed" myself,
Of course, those might have not been the exact words, but a few posts above I was made aware that asking about what patent is in place here is not a good taste at this time. I will respect that to avoid offending someone. Add a few more of my questions that ended up with me becoming a troll and whatever else, and one would get a sense that questions are strongly discouraged. On a completely different note, does anyone know how many of those RCA caps are included in $10 quoted price? It seems it is 10, but picture of the bag looks like it could be way more. |
@oregonpapa Frank, since you were close with Tim, can you share his system? Having his reference may be helpful. Thanks. |
david_ten ...
I was more familiar with the system he had built for the Capital Audio Fest that he had to cancel. I'll ask Krissy and get back to you. Frank |
glupson ...
There are ten RCA caps for the $100 price. Frank |
oregonpapa, Thanks. The price on the Internet was $10 but the little window with, I guess, quantity also says 10. It appeared it would be 10 for 10 which seemed much cheaper than expected given the rest of the prices. It seemed like a steal. I got confused. |
david_ten ... Here’s Tim’s main system ... Speakers - Newform Research 645’s. Sub Woofers - Gallo. CD Player - Consonance - with the stand. Amps - Unico DM Italian amps. No pre-amp. Power supply - Huge unit made in the 1950s that Tim modified. Cables - All custom built by Tim using the same technology that is in The Gate. All electronics and the complete interior of the speakers, including crossovers and driver baskets, are completely treated with Total Contact ... plus a Gate in the circuit breaker box and mats galore everywhere. I think Krissy told me that Tim had eighty (80) mats throughout the system. I can attest to the quality of Tim’s cables. He sent me two power cords that he had built for the show to try out. I had them for three weeks. They were fantastic and much like adding another Gate to the system. I went through a total withdrawal when I returned them. I can only imagine what an entire loop would sound like. Then there was the second system that he built for the show. For the life of me, I cannot remember the brand of the speakers, but they can be bought at Best Buy for $1000. Tim bought his used at an auction for $165 for the pair. The amp was the new Mac integrated, New Mac CD player and that power supply that Tim had built for the main system. Then with all of the above wires, and the speakers totally tricked out like above too. The idea was to get really great sound from those speakers that almost anyone can afford, and have the system blow everyone’s mind. He even made special room treatments that he told me were absolutely fantastic. The guy was a genius. Frank |
Very interesting post Oregonpapa...
It is my experience, without the genius of this guy for sure, that almost all people already own more than correct gear for an audiophile experience of the first order, modulo room treatment, vibration-resonance controls, electro-magnetic grid of the room and the house treatment and some other supplementary tweaks... Interesting thread..
All my sympathies goes to his friends and family .My best to all...
|
Tim and I talked about simple things that can make for a nice improvement. One was my mention of replacing all the steel fasteners holding down his speakers, diaphrams, and crossover components. Brass is nonferrous, and has low or no inductance. He was blown away with the improvement even on the ribbon drivers..that supprised him the most.
We both painted the baskets of the drivers and for myself I painted the bezel around the tweeter. Tim treated his entire speaker in segments and then when he knew how great the improvement was he painted the whole darn thing. When one was complete it just disappeared and he had to jump right over and treat its mate..For me once the paint cured there was a nice improvement. But I didnt have buckets of paint so I was more selective in my treatments such as the brass screws. Nice even more.
He told me his speakers for the show were a fairly recent but discontinued Klipsch RP series 2 way. Dual 8 model with horn tweeter.
He told me he wanted it to remain stock for the show...adding only his magic treatments to all the stock components. I think he treated the inside of the cabinet and told me he built his own wiring harness and treated that as well. When he told me about this speaker pair he modded and how it sounded he was as giddy as an 9 year old at Christmas..He built it as a showcase for his products and their application. He didnt change the crossover components or values..no brass fasteners no new isolators or couplers..all stock. The newer Klipsch series speakers are quite good. I know I have sold them in the very recent past. At no time were the speaker drivers treated..only the stationary parts.
Tim was a great guy.. smart man and he was a great listener and always had an idea on fire. Will miss you Tim ...So says Tom.
|
theaudiotweak ... Nice post. I had second thoughts on posting Tim’s suggestions to improve my speakers, but now that you’ve brought it up, here it is: Tim called and asked me if I had a felt-like material around the outside of the drivers on my speakers. I said that I did. Tim suggested that I paste the felt material with Total Contact. I thought ... riiiight. Well, I did and the improvement was immediate. Then he called back and said that he had done some research on my speakers and suggested that I VERY carefully apply a thin coat of Total Contact to the screens covering the Dual Air Motion Tweeters. I did, then sat back and was shocked at how much better the highs became. After that, I took the access cover off of the crossovers and pasted everything I found there. Zowie, another improvement. There’s a lot more to Total Contact than just coating the ends of a cable loop. Frank |
Tim's main system is indeed impressive. I have had the pleasure of hearing (and seeing) it, too briefly, when I visited him. I wish that I could spend more time listening and really getting to know what it's capable of. It is clearly a labor of love by a true audio and music enthusiast. Tim had no fear of trying new things, and that is a big part of how he came to develop these groundbreaking products. |
Hey Tom, Thanks for looking over the cables with me! Everything was packed for the show.... so so happy to have the big system up and running! <3
~~Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul~~
Love,
Krissy |
Yea I have been sitting on the sidelines reading but not posting. Not knowing of his illness I would send research articles nearly everyday to Tim..this stuff would show up on my phone..mostly about new takes on particles with new and novel twists. His replys became less frequent.
The last one sent was an article in the NewYork Times. I got a reply almost immediately not from Tim but from his Bride telling me her best friend passed away a couple of days before. I cried to my bride. All of our loss... Tom
. |
I see I've missed many pages while away on business.
@glupson
You are right to question things. Not everything is as peachy as the PTP crew would have you believe.
PPT claims of the EMAT+, "Even more of our patented 'perfect path effect'!"
Patent laws state, "A patentee who makes or sells patented articles, or a person who does so for or under the patentee is required to mark the articles with the word 'patent' and the number of the patent."
So either they aren't following requirements, or they have no patent and are guilty of false advertising. A patent number shouldn't be difficult to provide if there is one. |
Hi jay, you must be a pretty smart guy to be so aware of the patent laws. Why don’t you PM the widow of the inventor of the PPT products whose husband has just passed away and express your concerns first hand. I'm sure she would be really interested to discuss them with you to ensure compliance. Or better yet, why don't you turn her in to the patent police? |
Jay...the patent is active ..type in Tim's last name its that simple. I have 3 patents and I don't always post those numbers on my products or their related pages. Tom |
Looks like the gangs all here now...
Oh what fun. |
Well, I couldn't help myself as I noticed how much traffic was on this thread. I do have one question....Is there any chance of the Omega Mats becoming saturated...IE non-effective?
I know the product I'm going to mention is different but, here goes....the grounding blocks (many manufactures)...where I've read they get saturated making them less or no longer useful. |
That's a good question Slaw.
Without knowing exactly how they work I'm not sure many people could say for sure but.....
From all I have heard from long-term users who have had mats for years it would appear not. |
theaudiotweak, "type in Tim's last name its that simple." It brings two patents for contact enhancer. Is there some other spelling? jetter, Your comment about contacting the lady is a little out of place, bad taste at this moment, you could say. Nobody would do that, regardless of the patent situation. Try to remember that neither jay23, nor me, nor a few others have started, or asked for it to be started, a thread about these mats. Being virtually invited to it, and then scolded for wanting to participate was not expected. Calm down. |
Glupson only one way to spell the name.
Tom |
Oh, good! Jay's back to tell us all again that he knows what we're hearing better than we do....
|
I have my doubts about the patent but doesn't matter. Slaw go back a page or so and I explain how products like this work. They have been around a long time and regularly used in many situations in electronics. They are regularly stocked at electronic distributors. |
theaudiotweak,
As atdavid said, it does not matter, but those are contact enhancers.
|
@atdavid, I doubt there is a person posting on here that doesn’t know about rfi/emi shielding and absorption products and how they work. Once again the Audio Savior arrives to enlighten the ignorant masses! What pompous, presumptuous nerve. I have personally purchased and used rfi/emi shielding sheets, covering the spectrum of frequencies and placed them both inside and outside my gear. I heard zero appreciable difference. The Omega Mats and now Omega + Mats are in an entirely different league. They do indeed work as stated. But of course, you wouldn’t know that would you? You have neither heard nor tried them, yet you’re spending your time doing your best to disparage a product with which you have zero experience. Can’t wait for you to start telling everyone we’re all fooling ourselves about what we hear. That is next, isn’t it??
|
All of the PPT products work well--that’s why there has been so much interest and talk. As a recent startup, PPT lacks the resources for large production and legal protection. A large company could copy the product, flood the market, bury a single proprietor in legal costs, drain resources and kill the business. Even if a person could eventually win in court, what a drag it would all have become--an end to a dream....all that hard work for naught. Why not show some respect for the small entrepreneur and for the American Dream?
|
Very well said indeed OP! |
atdavid
I have my doubts about the patent but doesn’t matter. Slaw go back a page or so and I explain how products like this work. They have been around a long time and regularly used in many situations in electronics. They are regularly stocked at electronic distributors. >>>>An excellent example of forgone conclusions and Strawman arguments, both of which are logical fallacies. But thanks for the explanation anyway. 🤗 Hint: If the method of operation is RF why does it take a week or two to break in? Answer at 11. “Knowledge is what’s left after you forget the things you learned in school.” - audiophile axiom |
thecarpathian,
I thought atdavid's explanation informative. But if you found no difference with RFI shielding products, then these PPT products are doing something other than reducing RFI. I still say that technical measurements on these PPT products can be released by Krissy without revealing proprietary secrets, just as amp manufacturers do with relevant user info such as power, THD, bandwidth and such, without revealing the actual circuit. |
There are more threads than this one on the mats and ecards and prior to Tims very untimely passing it has been stated that RFI shielding is NOT the action of these items. Neither is any form of magnetic effect.
I would have to dig through many previous posts on other threads which I cannot be bothered to do but this is old news people.
|
Funny story. Back in the halcyon days of the Intelligent Chip one enterprising and very skeptical customer took one of the Intelligent Chips to a metallurgist to examine the surface of the chip, which is a silvery metal disc, with a scanning electron microscope to figure out what the damn thing was made of and if it could possibly be a photon generator or contain artificial atoms as the chip was suspected to be (by your humble narrorator).
The scanning electron microscope determined that the top and bottom surfaces were specific metals but did not find artificial atoms. It did identify Niobium (Nb) and Nickel (Ni) in the top surfaces of the metal discs and Copper (Cu), Zinc (Zn) and Aluminum (Al) in the bottom surfaces. So the skeptical customer declared the Intelligent Chip a hoax. What he didn’t realize is that the disc was actually a sandwich of two discs and in between the discs was the active ingredient - artificial atoms! Hidden from view of the scanning electron microscope. The best laid plans of mice and skeptics oft go awry.
|
