New Omega E Mat from Perfect Path Technologies

If the manufacturer asked you to, and you did it, then yes, that would be an advertisement.

jafreeman OP506 posts11-21-2019 2:06pm
In my opening statement, I said a few of us who have these new mats were asked to introduce them, not because we work for the company, but because we are using them. If you wrote here about how great your new audio component sounds, would you say you are running an ad? No--you would not.

Perhaps you can explain how applying a "mat" to a sealed metal enclosure would significantly change the EMI, when the metal enclosure would already do that?  Since the mat has metal on it, it would stick to a steel enclosure which would also have magnetic shielding properties as well and if aluminum, a sheet of mu-metal is about $25.

jafreeman OP506 posts11-21-2019 2:06pmGlupson, you’re not reading for comprehension---I just told you the systems are quite good, and I asked you to describe your own. If you had done so, I would have said, as good as your system is, it would sound as good as it actually is if you had some Omega mats in place. This is the point we are trying to make about these mats’ effectiveness in rejecting the EMI that masks the signal.

RF and EMI absorbing sheets are quite common in industry, relatively inexpensive, and easily sourced. The technology has been around for a long time. For high frequencies, typically carbon black, graphene, etc. embedded in a polymer, for lower frequencies, magnetic materials such as ferrite, fine iron powder embedded in a polymer (and of course hybrids). When exposed to EMI, the particles self-resonate and convert the EMI to heat. Sometimes there is a conductive layer to shield and/or to cause the EMI to reflect back through the material for more absorption. The particle sizes/material are tuned or varied to cover different frequencies.

I have my doubts about the patent but doesn't matter. Slaw go back a page or so and I explain how products like this work. They have been around a long time and regularly used in many situations in electronics. They are regularly stocked at electronic distributors. 

Give me a break thecarpathian, almost none of you had the first clue how EMI absorption products work, it is rather evident in the posts being made.

Geoff you sell magic pet pebbles, and promote things that don't exist. I don't take anything you say seriously and rarely read past the first line or two anymore. There is no point.

I am sorry that the workings of thermostats escape the understanding of those using these products.

Tesla was a tinkerer. He invented some obviously important things but he actually did nothing to advance our fundamental understanding of the world. He shunned theoretical physics and those who attempted deeper understanding.

I know how electrical products in your house work, virtually all the ones that will contribute significantly to your electrical bills, and no, not this nor any other similar or different product is going to break basic laws of conservation of energy that would be required to magically reduce electrical bills 30%.   


If you are upset about negativity then consider the claims you make. 

It is hard to avoid negative comments when claims are so specious as to be ridiculous. A mat, no matter what or a power device is not going to make things in your fridge suddenly freeze. There is a little thing called a thermostat that prevents that, and motor efficiency already fairly high is not going to go faster so no there will be no more cooling.


Ditto something attached to your electrical panel is not going to reduce your power bills 30%, not 10%, and at best maybe a few percent.


When you make claims that are far outside the realm of believable, it is hard to accept the other claims and that can generate skepticism and ridicule.

Geoff, your post makes 0 sense and what may sound logical to some has no factual logic behind it.


The thermostat turns off when the temperature get to X usually about 3C or 37F.  Doesn't matter how efficient your system is, that is when it turns off.


Cooling capacity is governed by compressor speed which is either fixed to AC frequency if AC motor or fixed to electronics if DC. Electrical efficiency does not impact cooling capacity only energy usage.


Residual cooling after motor is turned off is defined by coolant, not electrical. Time constant, i.e. how fast fridge cools is quite slow so residual cold is fairly low.  


This product will not cause things to freeze in your fridge. 


Things that cause freezing are lowered outside air temps which can cause thermostat inaccuracy (only in one spot) and not opening the door for long periods which can cause temp differentials due to lack of air flow from infrequent turn ons, cool air movement from freezer, and minor amplification of residual cool.


You are desperately clutching for straws.

 

I never called anyone a liar. I have no doubt you believe what you say. However if you want the things you say related to audio to be taken seriously you may want to understand the things you claim unrelated to audio don't jive with basic laws of physics and hence put in question everything you claim about anything. It shows you are easily swayed and not objective.

Many of Tesla's ideas were proven wrong.


May I suggest getting your fridge serviced? You seen to have a thermostat issue. 

This is not the 1500s, so the church analog was not a good one, but given the many things Tesla believed that were false, that is more appropriate.


Power usage of devices can be measured to about 0.1% inexpensively. If this did save power it could be proved easily.


It may surprise you that the electrical aspects of almost everything in your home are quite efficient. The losses are mainly non electrical. 30% losses on the electrical side does not even exist.

I didn’t claim that Tesla had a lot of failures I claimed a lot of hypotheses he had were plain wrong. He was a smart tinkerer but was often also eminently arrogant and that impacted his ability to learn. He looked down on his contemporaries like Einstein with contempt. While we appreciate the things that Tesla brought to the world like 3 phase power and AC induction motors his knowledge and understanding of fundamental physics was limited and he appeared to make no attempt to change that and looked down on those that did like Einstein.

He was an inventor. There is almost nothing in science attributed to Tesla. I get that you want to believe that but he did pretty much nothing to advance fundamental science maybe nothing. He literally shunned theoretical physics, arrogantly assuming he knew it all. That is why he had so many crazy hypotheses that were wrong because he refused to accept that there were things he did not know that others did.


Be was not a great scientific mind, a great mind perhaps, but in many ways he shunned science and those that knew things he did not and could theorize where he could not.

I think what glupson was trying to say is that your unbridled idolatry to the point of ignoring reality was perhaps not a great promotional technique beyond a limited and easily influenced crowd. His lesson unfortunately was lost. You started this thread to promote the product. Perhaps you should listen to him.

Geoff, if you care, the Gate is likely capacitors and maybe MOVs in a box based on claims and wiring installation but unfortunately hampered by the single phase connection, long wires, and price. Based on it being capacitors in a box, it likely will reduce AC line noise, though only effectively on one phase.


Will it do that better than those $199 - $399 capacitors in a box that also make unsubstantiated claims of power savings? Your mileage may vary.

David_ten it does make claims wrt power factor and yes that needs to be load specific but that has not stopped people from selling caps in a box with power factor correction claims.


GK,  you sell magic pebbles (literally colored pebbles). I think you are proof no magic is needed,  just the suggestion of it.

Oregonpapa,
Since you have admitted you don’t know how the Gate works, how can you say I am off base?

The way it is hooked up is pretty clear. It only connects to one phase. That means the benefit it can have on the other phase is limited. That is simple reality.

Steakster,

Stop being a jerk and show me where I am wrong. It’s easy to say someone is wrong ... Let see if you can back up your condescension with actual words with meaning.


I clearly said that two phase is not really two phase but split phase of a single transformer winding. 

If you are in North America, they what is supplied to houses is split-phase 120/240. It is technically not a true two-phase system but usually referred to as such. What it is is a 240V center-tapped transformer on the pole, then 3 wires are run to the breaker panel, two lives, and the neutral. Almost all audio equipment I am aware of in North America is 120V, which means you are only connecting to 1/2 the windings on the pole transformer at at time.

Noise reduction and surge equipment only attached to 1/2 the transformer will have some effect on the other side of the transformer, but the speed/bandwidth of that effect is limited as the bandwidth of that large pole/neighbourhood transformer is low. Power-Factor applied to only one side of the transformer can work, is not as effective, but as was noted above, to achieve power factor correction, it takes more sophistication.

jafreeman OP519 posts11-24-2019 8:22pm"The way it is hooked up is pretty clear. It only connects to one phase. That means the benefit it can have on the other phase is limited. That is simple reality." at david

Atdavid, is you system powered by more than one phase in your box?

A 240V connection is normally cleaner, i.e. less THD than a 120V connection, but you can run a 120 to 120 center tap transformer and connect the center tap to ground and technically that is balanced but running from the two lives (busbars) is a better implementation.

Pop answer ... that would depend on how many db attenuation you expected, and because there are normally multiple RCA jacks close together, you would also need to know the spacing of those jacks.

What if your enclosure is solid metal and your RCA (or other) holes are covered? Then how much RF escapes and what will a mat outside that enclosure do?

geoffkait18,468 posts11-25-2019 6:58am

Pop quiz 1 - What is the frequency of RF that can squeeze through the tiny openings of unused RCA jacks?

Why does he have to be positive? Are critical takes suddenly not allowed? This is a public forum is it not?

jerrybj33 posts11-26-2019 1:14am

Glupson
From the other side of the screen, it seems that you get overly emotional and agitated in this thread. May I recommend that you stop reading it? It may be detrimental to your health.

If you can't say anything positive, leave.

GK: remaining irrelevant one post at a time.

You have no found "anything" I just pointed out the options available to you ... so go through and discuss what the likelihood of any of those and the impacts.

And again ... you have 0 idea what the Omega+ mat does, since you the manufacturer supplies no specs, and you have no measurements for it.

Impacts: Electric field, magnetic field, EM wave (RF), gravity, particles, or purely mechanical. Pick 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, but you don’t get to pick 0.

theaudiotweak1,852 posts11-26-2019 12:54pmThe mats could be working on a couple of levels certainly not RF or just RF as Geoff stated.. Surface treatment on speaker bezels or speaker screens or some devices on acoustic instruments benefit from TC is not RF related. Of course TC is different that the Mat..but they both have a break in period which indicates to me they do not work on RF. Tom

A little quick on the draw there GK ...

geoffkait18,533 posts11-26-2019 10:27pmhttps://youtu.be/byCj2kfIpXI

GK: remaining irrelevant one post at a time.

Considering shear waves are waves propagating in the material (as opposed to purely surface) and are mechanical in nature, why would you need super expensive contact cleaner with limited mass as opposed to cheap paint or similar?

theaudiotweak1,854 posts11-26-2019 6:11pmTim and I often discussed shear waves and their interfering energy in all solid materials. I can see and hear how Total Contact will reduce this interference. With the mats and the Gate I still feel there is a correlation and there is a reaction and influence on wave energy. Not sure the how or why. Tom

Since you have absolutely no idea what the mat is thecarpathian, you are in absolutely no position to claim what it is or not, however, based on the construction that oregonpapa my hypothesis is reasonable.

Wide bandwidth isn’t terribly difficult and does not push the cost past $100 at all. It is a matter of particle composition, size and density embedded in the mat, and often a few layers are used to cover wider frequency ranges. Again, since you have no idea the frequencies that the Omega mat works at (or even how), any claims you make w.r.t. is just conjecture.

So pretty much sounds like an off the shelf EMI absorber sheet (as little as $20, <$100 for really good one this size). They are made with and without metal backing. When they have a metal backing, they RF reflects off the back and passes through the absorber material twice, so double the absorption. The usual place to use them is inside equipment especially RF equipment to control stray RF and improve sensitivity.

oregonpapa3,635 posts11-26-2019 8:33pmglupson ...

Just so you’ll understand ... The original mats were made using the same material used for refrigerator magnets. You know, those cute little things that people stick to the front doors of their fridge? They were used for convenience and not for effect. The Alpha cards were made the same way, then Tim switched to a metal backing for those. The new Omega + E-Mats don’t have any magnetic properties at all that I can tell. None of the other products are magnetic either. I liked the magnetic Alpha cards. I have them plastered vertically to the sides of the PC that I use for the bedroom system.

Frank

Do you have any RF measurement or design experience? No?  Then you have at best conjecture. You tried One-1 EMI absorbing sheet and I expect you are not qualified to evaluate an EMI absorbing sheet data sheet.

Given the extremely low volume these are sold in, do you really think that PPT has the manufacturing technology to make something like this?  .... or is it much more likely they are marketing something off the shelf and rebranding it. Perhaps they are bonding two low cost sheets together, but that is not evident.

But it is quite accurate to say that one in the hands of someone with some basic RF knowledge and tools could figure out pretty accurately what it is ...

uberwaltz8,510 posts11-26-2019 9:54pmActually Atdavid, it might not be quite accurate to say nobody knows how the mats work.
It would be accurate to say though that they would NEVER reveal the design to you or Gluppy.

JCB is a brand name of heavy equipment, like Caterpillar in N.A., JCB is to digger, like Kleenex is to tissue.

This was the exact quote that told me that you hadn’t tested anything similar and that You are unfamiliar with the basic technology, or what frequencies may be of interest, or even what products to use.

You used "rfi/emi shielding SHEETS". There is a very large difference between an rfi/emi --Shielding-- sheet and an emi/RFI --Absorbing-- sheet. People who understand these products and technology would never confuse the two or the terminology, so it looks like you bought the wrong thing and hence Your experiments hold no related validity.

You see carpathian, you didn’t use the word absorbing till after I started using it. You used Shielding. Completely different product. Again, no one at all familiar with these products or even someone who has researched them and bought them would confuse the two.

So, you see, and I will type it slower, No Actual Personal Experience. You should quite while you are behind. It is embarrassing .... for you.

thecarpathian752 posts11-26-2019 10:27pmDirect quote from my post made on 11/23/19-
Thecarpathian-
"I have personally purchased and used rfi/emi shielding SHEETS, covering the spectrum of frequencies and placed THEM both inside and outside my gear."
So, wrong again!
And I stated I heard no appreciable difference. Terribly sorry I don’t have the exact frequency coverage for you. I didn’t know there was going to be a test. See, personal, physical experience. I’ll type it slower this time....
I speak from a position of experience. You speak from a position of complete ignorance. Honestly, quit while you’re behind. It’s embarrassing.....

Sorry,     thecarpathian, you don't get to wordsmith your way out of this.


You didn't know the difference between shielding sheets and absorbing sheets. Hence you did whatever you did with sheilding sheets. 


I wasn't wrong. I said you hadn't any experience with absorbing sheets because you had already said that wasn't what you used , and You, yes You confirmed that again by repeating that you used shielding sheets, many of them. 

No, thecarpathian you didn’t.


You never used the word absorbing until after I did. Then, in your bluster to prove you were right, you again posted that you used shielding sheets, many of them.


You used shielding sheets. Your own words state that. No one who actuality researched these things and knows what they are would mix them up. It is akin to mixing up a mirror and a black wall.

Except when you are buying RF/EMI sheets, they have very clear functions, of shielding, or absorbing. One cannot assume a shield absorbs, and more often than not, does not absorb. An absorber .... absorbs, which may or may not provide shielding depending on how you use it :-) Not to mention they are also clearly marketed and marked as such.

If we are going to go on semantics, a MuMetal shield does not really shield by absorbing, it shields by conducting.

geoffkait18,550 posts11-27-2019 8:41amAt the risk of being argumentative it’s a bit of a semantic argument. Mu metal shields by absorbing. Tank armor shields by absorbing. Capish?

GK,

Best to read the whole Wikipedia article before posting, it will prevent you from posting things that are wrong, and for the record, once again I am Proving You Wrong.

1. The fact it "saturates" has nothing to do with the shielding. It has only to do with permeability
2. Know what happens when it saturates? ... it stops working as a "shield". That is why Mu Metal is often used as a secondary shield when high magnetic fields are present.
3. It is natural to assume that a Magnetic Shield does exactly what it say’s and acts as a shield deterring the magnetic field away from the protected area. In essence a Magnetic Shield does exactly the opposite, acting as a “sponge” drawing the magnetic field in. It is here that the clever bit happens – the magnetic field is now directed along the path of the shield, bypassing the protected area inside. This allows the field to circle around our protected area before continuing its journey once it leaves the opposing side of the shield. Providing the magnetic field is lower than the saturation of mu-metal (0.76 Tesla) the protected area remains free of spurious magnetic field. Once this level of saturation is reached and exceeded, leakage of the field into the protected area will once again occur.  (Hint, that means it is conducting the magnetic field)  From: mumetal.co.uk
   
4. A high-permeability material such as mu-metal or its derivatives can give LF magnetic shielding by concentrating the field within the bulk of the material, but this is a different mechanism to that discussed above, and it is normally only viable for sensitive (or noisy) individual components such as transformers.  (Again, conducting the magnetic field)  From: EMC for Product Designers (Fifth Edition)
5. https://www.mushield.com/magnetic-shielding/how-magnetic-shielding-works/
6. PASSIVE SHIELDINGThere are two mechanisms for magnetic shielding:eddy-current cancellation, which occurs in materials with highelectrical conductivities andflux shunting, which occurs inmaterials with high magnetic permeabilities [7]. Flux shunt-ing is an effective mechanism for shielding static magneticfields and eddy-current cancellation is effective for time-varying magnetic fields. (MuMetal uses flux shunting. Flux shunting -- meaning conducting the magnetic field or shunting it). From a paper on CERN: https://groups.physics.ox.ac.uk/font/papers/IPAC19/ipac19-mopgw082_paper.pdf
7. MuMetal only works well till 10’s of KHz.
8. This showing you to be wrong is a full time job.
9. It is nice to know you are learning something from me.
   
10. No mints for you.
    

geoffkait18,553 posts11-27-2019 11:41ammu metal has high permeability so it saturates easily in the presence of a magnetic field, i.e., it ABSORBS. But at the same time, mu metal SHIELDS the surrounding electronics and wiring from the magnetic field, in the simple case of a transformer in an amplifier or BLU RAY player. It’s two! Two mints in one! 👯‍♂️

uberwaltz, the welcome mat has never been out for anyone that doesn't blindly drink the cool-aid so your post is disingenuous. If you think there is harm in trying to have an intelligent discussion about how something works, then really I am not sure what to say. Most people don't buy things blindly on faith, and absent any knowledge of workings, are apt to not use properly.

theaudiotweaks plan to put these on top of an outdoor transformer, to me, seems misguided. However, if you believe in these products, perhaps cutting them in half, or even in 1/4 width strips and taping them around your incoming AC would have a far superior benefit.

No one is asking them to divulge the secret sauce on how they are made, but not providing any details about even what they do seems very odd to me.  That is especially odd given that very long "burn-in" time. Even GK was skeptical about that claim, even though I am sure he will claim otherwise.

You can catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.

Oh look, it is GK, maintaining irrelevance one post at a time.   Gee GK, this deflection is even really weak for you!

I have shown you to be wrong in the past. I have shown you to be wrong now. I will show you to be wrong in the future. You will show yourself to be irrelevant.  I do really appreciate the laugh in the middle of the day, thank you for that.

You know if you are going to come back with a really weak deflection you should do it quickly, and not take almost and hour. When you take that long, someone could assume you were working really hard to come up with an argument, and coming up with nothing, this is what you get ...

Maybe one day we can have a chat about analogies so that you can understand this better. It would be glorious.

Enjoy your day!

geoffkait18,558 posts11-27-2019 1:47pmatdavid, a serious question for you. You’re just pretending to be dense, right?

GK,   I figured you would come back with some obtuse and irrelevant deflection to attempt to prove you were not wrong, but you disappoint even me with this attempt.  There is no "60Hz" mumetal (generic, not the brand specific version), any more than there is a "high frequency" mumetal, both of high permeability. Higher permeability alloys are not good at high frequencies and anything that purports to be mumetal is not much use past 100KHz and rolls off well before that. Similarly, all of them work just fine with low frequency fields like 60Hz.

Oh, and GK, none of that does anything to negate that again you were wrong about how mumetal works. Maybe because of that you have been using it all wrong?

Glupson, you were right, you win the bet.

To learn. It seems like only me and Glupson are actually interested in doing that. It is sad state of affairs really.

We are talking about the Omega mats. GK got off on a tangent about it being mumetal, which highly unlikely that it is.

See GK, that time you came back with an ad-hom in a little over 15 minutes. That’s the spirit. It’s almost believable when you do that. Great show old chap!

OregonPapa, putting my engineering hat on, as GK did for a few seconds, while I don’t see much value in the Omega mat as used, products with likely the same function, i.e. EMI absorption, or absorption with a reflection layer do have value inside equipment. They are regularly used for this. They are used to reduce the emissions from microprocessors into sensitive equipment as GK stated. They usually are not used for shielding sensitive analog as custom metal shields are used for that. They are placed around ribbon cables carrying high speed signals to be reduce EMI both inside and outside the enclosure. They are used over specific traces on PCBs to reduce EMI in the same way. They are used with RF receivers to control reflections and reduce background noise.


Mumetal like steel and other magnetic materials must be used very carefully near transformers. While it has shielding properties, it also becomes part of the magnetic circuit of those components, plus magnetic EMI components. For something like a power transformer, that could be beneficial. For an output transformer that is carefully designed, that is bad.


Uberwalz, given you don’t know how Omega mats work, and don’t seem to have any interest in finding out, what exactly are you planning to discuss? One post of I tried it and it works seems to be enough? If you knew how they work, then you would have a much better chance of applying them to their maximum effectiveness instead of just guessing.

I apologize for GK’s lack of self reflection. One would think his 18,500+ posts, many irrelevant to the conversation would give him pause that he is attracted to other posters, not the other way around. Nothing I can do about that unfortunately.

You haven’t shown any interest in anything approaching discourse before, why would you start now. There is certainly a lot of posts lacking logic and posters being obtuse in this thread, but that is not because of glupson and I.

uberwaltz8,536 posts11-27-2019 9:04pmI have absolutely zero interest in entering into any discourse with members Glupson and Atdavid.

Both have proven to be extremely obtuse and incapable of logical postings.

GK: maintaining irrelevance one post at a time, 24/7.

When you consider the posts of the only people asking critical questions "worthless", then it is likely not those people, but the thread that is the issue.

No jetter, the OP makes it quite clear that this is an advertisement. If you are advertising on a free forum, then I don't think you have any expectation of a safe space free from criticism.