New Class D amplifiers

Marty,

Very good. I just started a new thread on this idea.

Please pm me tomorrow for more discussion.

@jeffseight I'd be up for a shootout in the Bay Area.

More than happy to bring:

Class D Mini GaN 5

Peachtee GaN 1

Purifi 

HiFi Rose RA 180

Marty

@ricevs mentioned this new brand to me a few days ago. Ric is modding my Peachtree GAN1 (to his preferences of course). This other amp he mentioned is the same as the GAN1 in spirit. It is more robust in that it has a volume, analog inputs, likely better software, and USB and SPDIF. It also has some audiophile name recognition and cost a lot more money (which makes some happy).

Maria Amplifiers – Daniel Hertz SA

Not sure if it has a remote.

Nio,

I am out of this thread.

I will begin another to carry on the proposal.

@ricevs , if I understood it correctly,  does an essential part of your moding consist of verifying and replacing wiring,  capacitors and resistances, or something similar? Do you rely on your personal sonic preferences, how you attain a better sound reproduction? 

Honestly, i don't see a point in personal insults. 

Wow has this thread gone off the rails! All b/c of one member.

Well this person also tends to not practice what he preaches. Below is what he posted in September last year:

Sadly, there are many small minded people who can't accept that their opinions on the matter are unimportant to a great many.

Based on this, it tells me that this person not only has a small mind, but an even smaller brain!

We need a formula with a number of parameters (including the price, and a few parameters that measure the SQ, and a few parameters more like the weight, the size and the power consumption of the amp, etc) to measure the overall benefit/performance of each amp. We may easily construct that formula if someone will carry out experiments and put the corresponding parameters into the formula. @jeffseight , does it look good to you? 

@tweak1 I am sorry for that accident. Something similar happened with my Megaschino, but it was finally repaired (just 10 days ago). Now neither am I in an extreme hurry to repair my 5.5 watts SET amp (earlier the left channel  EL34 tube of the amp was blown up and damaged  the 50 v 470 capacitor which is just below the amp. The amp still worked but the left channel was a bit weaker. Finally, I decided to replace the capacitor. We touched just this small part of the amp, nothing else. Surprisingly, no sound coming out of either channel anymore. I have no idea what could happened. The amp has a blocking system, which now does not unblock). 

If Aavik agreed to provide one it could be last.

At 2-3 times the MSRP it should win. 

...and therein lies the problem.

@niodari

I can't try anything as I had an accident when I was moving it with the lid off, but resting sideways on top (plugged in f course... the top fell in and it crashed into one module  creating BIG sparks. Fortunately, I was able to drop the EVS1200 in its place until I get it fixed. Im not in any hurry as the EVS sounds amazing

No I can not sorry. I was interested in knowing if any were better for my ears

than my Pass amp. Except for the Bass punch that was a no.

As I hear it Pass and Luxman Class A solid state amps

still hold the most magic. 

But Class D Ganfet is making the differences subtler.

I would like to hold a shoot out of Class D Ganfet amps

to include: Technics, Atmosphere, Orchard, AGD, Bel Canto, LSA,

and possibly others. In an A/B format. Audience voting preferences

would decide which moved up to go against the next.

Starting with the lowest MSRP seems most logical.

If Aavik agreed to provide one it could be last.

At 2-3 times the MSRP it should win. 

Refinements?? Suggestions?

I could hold this in either Seattle or the Bay Area. Or both.

@jeffseight ​I have heard the Aavik, Orchard, Atmas, Bel Cantos, LSA Class D sound

Can you explain the differences between all those class d amps you heard? Which was the most musical?​​​​​​

I have had Walter's Voyager Amp in my system for a couple weeks.

The sample was eventually sold to another audiophile with a great system.

I compared it to my Pass Labs INT25. The extra power did improve the bass

response. I think overall it is a great value. I may get a class D Ganfet for 

bi-amping.

I have heard the Aavik, Orchard, Atmas, Bel Cantos, LSA Class D sound.

If the Borresen people find it palatable, I can't imagine we are far from

seeing it everywhere. 

But for now I will stay with my friend Nelson.

Yes, I AM convinced that we cannot measure everything we hear......in fact, most things we hear cannot.....at all....be measured. All wires, direction of wires, all jacks, all fuses, all capacitors, all brands of solder, etc. into infinity sound different yet they do not measure any different. Just a few days ago I put a piece of cardboard underneath my streamer and it sounded better.......please measure that! The mods I just completed to the Peachtree GaN1 transformed the sound but will NOT in any way affect any measurement you can do. Our ears are way more sensitive to what things "sound like" than any scope or distortion measurement device. I just swapped two different 6 inch pieces of twisted wire on the digital input of the amp and you get a completely different sound.......this is everywhere.....every single thing you do has a sound. There is no such thing as a pure thing. This is why the first rule of tweaking is to eliminate as much of the signal path as possible......these new digital amps do just that.....of course, there will be better digital amps......most of us will have digtial amps within 10 years....this, I have no doubt about.

@tweak1 With XLR inputs, you may try all four possible positions for the back switches and see if this affects SQ

Do I really need to explain the difference between subjective preferences and objective performance again?

There should be no difference at all! If you think there is, then you are convinced that we can't make the measurements for everything we hear (which, since about the early 1990s, we can) and also that the human perceptual rules that are shared by everyone on the planet are of no consequence, making things like deciBels irrelevant.

Of course I've found that both the objectivist and subjectivist camps don't like this heretical view. I subscribe to Daniel von Reklinghausen's take on the matter of measurement and what we hear. 

Obviously anecdote isn't reliable, but it can provide data points over time, especially if everyone's anecdote, independently of one another, describes the same thing.

Similarly, the guys that only look at measurements are notorious for their bias confirmation, and their striking ability to assemble dreadful sounding systems.

Neither side is right; both suffer bias confirmation.

Wow has this thread gone off the rails! All b/c of one member. 

@tweak1 This makes sense, that unit is non-functioning for me anyways.

kuribo

... you are another example of someone who can't deal with an opinion contrary to your own. Feel free to ignore that which causes you grief.

Ahhh, the classic ad hominem, the laziest of all logical fallacies.

@niodari 

My V chassis is all metal. My system is all XLRs, so never tried the RCAs. Maybe shoot Ric a couple of photos pointing out the situation

Good Luck

@ddafoe 
 

Then why do you continue to post your recommendations on Class D amplification and ridicule those who choose to spend more than your  mandated $1000?   You are contradicting yourself.

Do I really need to explain the difference between subjective preferences and objective performance again?

I wouldn't ever even begin to believe that what I prefer in audio components would have any relevance for others. 

@kuribo, really?   Then why do you continue to post your recommendations on Class D amplification and ridicule those who choose to spend more than your  mandated $1000?   You are contradicting yourself.

@tweak1 , thanks for your remark. My LSA GaN 350 Voyager was sent back for the repair, but it came back with the same performance and a worse physical shape (they have broken the plastic frame of the case without even letting me know about it). Do you use the back RCA/Balanced selection switches? Independently of which of the inputs I use, my Voyager sounds more or less acceptable only if one of the channels (the left one) is in RCA and the other one is in XLR positions. Otherwise, the amp sounds like a $100 Sony amplifier from BestBuy. They were not able to or did not wish to spend enough attention to arrange this issue, literally returning the amp as it was (and not precisely, because of the broken case). If you like how it sounds, there could be possible to do something. I contacted Ric Schultz earlier regarding the problem with my Chery Megaschino, he said he cannot help.  (but Ralph has agreed very kindly to try to arrange it, but finally, to my surprise, it was repaired for $80 by a technician who is within 10 minutes of driving distance from my house, hope this will last). I will try to contact him though am not too optimistic that this amp may sound good. 

@kuribo , honestly, I did not notice any dependence of the frequency response on speaker loads. I tried the Voyager with three different pairs of Thiel speakers in three different systems. The problem is not literally in frequency response (in both high and low frequencies). It rather gives a "dead" sound for my taste. I cannot explain it logically, though soundstage and separation could have been better. Curiously, I enjoy even more Nuprime   ST10 class D amp. And there is just no comparison with Cherry Megaschino amp, which I indeed enjoy. 

kuribo

I have no personal agenda, other than to call out over priced, under performing products when I see them. Audio is full of over priced products that don't measure up to far cheaper alternatives.

So you see yourself as a savior, eh? And you assume the roles of judge, prosecutor, jury, and executioner because you have "considered opinion?"

I have no doubt your amp is well engineered, well built, and performs well. It's just not a good value ... I am sure it will sell well, though I would not necessarily consider that a reflection on the amp itself ...

Have you heard the amplifier? For that matter, have you even seen it?

... more further proof that audio is full of insecure, status seekers who like to spend extravagant amounts of money on products to assuage their frail egos.

Yes, you have certainly provided proof that audio has its share of "insecure, status seekers." Well done!

@ddafoe 

 

Nice; from my perspective, all the more reason to skip over your posts...

Oh yea, what system do you listen to again?  Just a hint, if you have mandated yourself to save us 'status seekers' from spending too much on Class D amplification, you might want to tell the rest of us what your system consists of and describe to us how it sounds and performs.




 

Feel free to read or not read, no one is making you read anything. I can't help it if my posts strike a nerve.

I wouldn't ever even begin to believe that what I prefer in audio components would have any relevance for others. Do your homework and find what works for you- it will prevent you from overpaying for products that under perform for their cost. Unless of course you find some psychic value in paying for certain things that are perhaps not directly related to performance. Best of luck.

@niodari

In fact, i own LSA GaN Voyager for already some months and keep it on a shelf unplugged. I am disappointed not only with its sonic properties but also with a terrible service i experienced.

It has a load variant frequency response as I have said due to its lack of post filter feedback. This problem was solved in class d 20 some years ago. It may be your speakers present a load variance that is causing an issue with the frequency response that you find unpleasant. This is an example of an amp that jumped on the GaN bandwagon and suffers from an issue modern class d designs do not suffer from.

Curious if the OP @grantgg has decided on any amp or had a chance to hear any?

@niodari 

Sorry to hear you did not get the assistance you need with your Voyager. BTW, I have one and love it!

Do you know Ric Schultz from Tweak Audio? He does mods, including the Voyager You might contact him about his upgrade. I have his EVS 1200, a ground up design based on dual AS1200 Ice modules. I have owned many many amps over the decades, tube (including servo and OTLs), SS (class A, AB, D) his EVS 1200 is one of the very best amps Ive ever had

hth

I have no personal agenda, other than to call out over priced, under performing products when I see them. 

more further proof that audio is full of insecure, status seekers who like to spend extravagant amounts of money on products to assuage their frail egos.

@kuribo, well done, after incredible amounts of excruciatingly repetitive posts on almost every Class D related thread that is created on this site, you now make it very clear your agenda and also what you think of us (likely the majority of the posters on these objective forums too) as 'status seekers'  who like to 'spend extravagant amounts of money on products to assuage their frail egos.'

Nice; from my perspective, all the more reason to skip over your posts...

Oh yea, what system do you listen to again?  Just a hint, if you have mandated yourself to save us 'status seekers' from spending too much on Class D amplification, you might want to tell the rest of us what your system consists of and describe to us how it sounds and performs.

AFAIK, ICEedge was relatively new.  ICEpower however has been around for much longer.

So when we say "legacy ICE" I have to believe you mean ICEpower.  Maybe I'm mistaken.

ICE ICE baby! Checkout the Legacy ICEedge technology amps. Own one and love it!

There may be not much of universal objectivity in comparing  different amplifiers.  The tastes are different . Most people like 8 cylinder pickups. I don't like them independently of their price and the gasoline they require. I prefer a light sport car. If an "American meat and potato" translates to an 8-cylinder pickup,  I am not sure if I will like Atmosphere class d. In fact I am not  impressed with Pass labs stuff, it's again matter of a taste.  If you want to drink water and instead you are given a very good prepared tasty lemonade, you would not like to drink it. I don't like  lemonade and Coca-Cola-like drinks although most people do like them (by the way if you want a cheap version of a Pass  amplifier, try Nuprime stuff, e.g. ST-10 class d amplifier). I'm so glad I was able to repair my Cherry Megaschino class d amplifier. I can now drink a pure good quality water. Tommy would have been very happy to hear this. 

Kuribo, your judgement may come from some objective data, this may make sense. To be more convincing you may go a bit deeper into the design basis of some GAN amplifiers, e.g , those of Atmosphere. Of course it would be important to compare them by yourself with Purifi etc.  (By the way, what you would say about the former amplifiers if they were five times cheaper?) In fact, i own LSA GaN Voyager for already some months and keep it on a shelf unplugged. I am disappointed not only with its sonic properties but also with a terrible service i experienced. 

@ddafoe ,

I noticed that you have the new AtmaSphere amps. Congratulations on the new acquisition. Would be eager to know how they compared to the Pass you had perviously. I have read nothing but great reviews about Ralph’s Class D amps.

This bit isn’t accurate. Have you priced them recently? We have. Using those modules would cause our amp to be more expensive than it is now.

Of course it is accurate. There are Hypex nc500 and Purifi amps, complete, from several sources, that are around $1000. No, they don't have a linear supply (they don't need one), no, they don't have a flashy case, nor do they have something you have to hide. They have decent warranties and companies that stand behind them. They are easy to repair and update. And most have a 2 to 5 year warranty, compared to your 3. And let's not forget, these are 400W, 500W into 8 Ohms, in other words, double the power or more than your 200W into 8 Ohm amps.

It's hardly a close comparison value-wise.

I fail to see why you keep repeating the bit about how it would make your amp "more expensive" to use 3rd party modules. So what? All that tells me is your modules must cost you very little, making your amp even more over priced. There must be at least a dozen or more companies out there who have figured out how to make a 3rd party module class d amp for less than half the price of yours or less. Maybe you need to up your game.

Less expensive than the other class d amps it competes against? So it's the least bad value of the bunch in the over priced status amp luxury market? Congrats.

I have no personal agenda, other than to call out over priced, under performing products when I see them. Audio is full of over priced products that don't measure up to far cheaper alternatives. I have no doubt your amp is well engineered, well built, and performs well. It's just not a good value, in comparison to other class d amps which have flooded the market, in my considered opinion. I am sure it will sell well, though I would not necessarily consider that a reflection on the amp itself, more further proof that audio is full of insecure, status seekers who like to spend extravagant amounts of money on products to assuage their frail egos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVDEE30XB5A

F'n fabulous...

Thanks Ralph.

I simply seeking to clarify the record by asking for any evidence of issues with Hypex or Purifi, which are much cheaper alternative.

This bit isn’t accurate. Have you priced them recently? We have. Using those modules would cause our amp to be more expensive than it is now.

But if we had it all made overseas it would be cheaper. If we didn’t have a dealer network to support the customer the same. If we didn’t care about the product being rugged enough to survive shipping abuse things would be different.

I’ve bought cheaper stuff that was supposed to be better. I hate to do it, because so often it simply doesn’t work out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVDEE30XB5A

We care about these things- so the amps are made here in Minnesota, they have dealer support, they hold together and have a lasting finish- and they meet emissions directives for real.

FWIW in the last 40 years we’ve been less expensive than our competition operating in the same performance bracket, often by several times. In the case of our class D, its less expensive than the amps it competes against, in some cases by mulitiple times.

FWIW if you bought an amplifier and put it in storage for 10 years, it would likely need to be refurbished at the end of that time since the filter caps would be shot at the very least.

Fortunately our class D isn’t one of the ’heavy amps and flashy cases’ you are talking about...

Its very obvious you have a personal agenda that has nothing to do with amplifiers.

As @jeffseight mentioned earlier in this thread, there is an excellent recent YouTube video called "The perfect power amplifier?" by Harley Lovegrove of Pearl Acoustics. Harley praises the accomplishments of Bruno Putzeys and his colleagues on building the Purifi amp modules, which are outstanding for their clarity, detail, tight bass, and dynamics. However, at the same time Harley says that the Purifi module is not all that pleasant to listen to without an excellent buffer to increase the gain of the module.

Harley mentions that Warren at VTV generously sent him a Purifi module along with a couple of op amps to use with it, one from Weiss and another from Sparkos. (He preferred the one from Sparkos.) So Harley’s view (and VTV’s too) is that the Purify module is a great starting point, but it only becomes a great amp with the right implementation. As Harley suggests, it’s technically brilliant now but it isn’t amazing yet.

In my opinion, we should applaud the efforts of talented designers at Atma-Sphere, AGD, Orchard, VTV, and elsewhere who appear to be using Class D models (whether using MOSFETs or GaNFETs) to try to make the best sounding amps possible. This may often involve more costly R&D, parts, power supplies, and custom components or modules to be successful in the marketplace.

Harley Lovegrove mentioned that he recently had the pleasure of having Bruno Putzeys come over for an afternoon of talking and listening to gear. Harley will be publishing his full interview with Bruno on March 14. It should be interesting!

No, you didn’t mention anything directly about Hypex, Purifi, etc. You made a general statement about cheaper alternatives. I simply seeking to clarify the record by asking for any evidence of issues with Hypex or Purifi, which are much cheaper alternative. You haven’t provided any so we can assume you weren’t including them in your general statement. Thanks for clarifying.

And it is easy to scroll through this thread and see that no, I never mentioned your product, nor anyone else’s, by name, when I made my comment about "no need to spend $5000 on a class d amp"...you jumped in and tried to justify your price. Anyone who can read can see this for themselves below. Someone needs to up their game, but it isn’t me.

So you used the same pricing model you have used for 40 years. Perhaps you have been overcharging then for 40 years.

What is Techniques up to? Perhaps catering to a market that isn’t value conscious? Perhaps they are looking to recoup their r&d costs. Or maybe they are pricing according the PT Barnum theory. Speaking of straw men, this is a nice example- just because other competitors are charging way above what a closely performing, or more likely, better performing amp costs, doesn’t mean they are any sort of prize. Having lived in Japan for 14 years I know a little about Japanese business and marketing and the status that is created by putting crazy high prices on prestige products. The Techniques amp is also a bad value when judged on performance.

Again, you claim you are selling to a "different market". So what? Bottom line, there are products on the market with better performance at 1/5 the cost. For those looking for a high performance class d amp, they do not need to spend $5000 to achieve state of the art performance, period. If they want to spend $1000 or so, they can get state of the art performance, good customer service and repairs/updates, and a product that by all appearances will last at least a decade and probably more. They won’t get a heavy linear power supply (so what?) and a fancy case (for many, another so what?). They won’t have sunk a lot of money into an amp tech that they may want to upgrade if something better appears in 5 years, and if they wish to keep the amp for 30 years, they can buy 3 of them, put two in storage in case the others fail after 10 years, and still have $2000 left over to spend on whatever. Oh, and then there are those who might want to buy 3 for an active system and spend the leftover $2000 on dsp or a multichannel dac for an active, truly state of the art system. Wonder if they would miss those heavy amps and flashy cases?

I haven’t heard or read of any issues with customer service from the many US and European sellers of class d amps using Hypex or Purifi modules. Do you have actual evidence of poor customer service you can share from any of the main stream amp providers?

This is a strawman; I didn't mention anything about the brands above.

I didn’t bring up your product here, you entered the discussion after I commented that there is no need to spend $5000 on a class d amp when there are better performing amps available for a fraction of that. I didn’t mention your amp by name. You jumped in and offered a justification for the high price.

And no, I have not singled you out, I made a general comment. I would respond the same way to any product here that has a performance not scaled to the price. I appreciate substance over form.

Calling BS. If you are going to take that approach, you need to up your game.

FWIW we did not make our class D with an idea of making it to a certain price point. Instead we wanted good quality in all the parts with good reliability and priced to the same formula we've used for the last 40 years.

As I said, there is no reason to spend $3000, $4000, $5000, or more on a class d amp to get state of the art performance. When you spend that sort of money, you are paying for cosmetics rather than performance. If that’s what is important to you, have at it.

So this is what you think Technics is up to?

I have chosen to troll this thread? No, I made a general statement that you decided to challenge. I simply responded.

But, ok, I have failed to identify the market you are attempting to serve. Let’s say then it must be that segment of the market where high prices are a feature, not a bug, and where "value" isn’t a consideration. That’s fine and honest. No need to justify your price here, I get it.

Again, calling BS. And FWIW, still don't seem to understand the market. Your strawman here demonstrates that obviously enough.

as the first modded Peachtree GaN1 will soon be compared to the Coda 16 amp.....both driven by the Lumin X1 using Leedh digital volume control......this will be fun!

I wonder if this would be apples to apples comparison ? With Peachtree GAN1, you are using only the streamer functionality of X1, while with Coda 16, you are using both the streamer and DAC functionality. Likely, they would sound very different ?

"Objective performance has never been proven to mean anything sonically.....so there is no need to discuss it, the only thing worth discussing is how it sounds"......

This statement is the opposite of what was just stated above. Who is correct? It does not matter. The mind believes what it will.....but your senses tells you what is REAL

Can any of these above mentioned amps (Purifi, Hypex, Orchard, AGD, Atmasphere, Technics, Lyngdorf, etc.) keep up sonically with a modified Peachtree GaN 1 or VTV D300 digital amp? Your analog Class D amps need a DAC, analog cables and maybe a preamp....the digital amp just needs a streamer with volume control and a single coax cable. Way less money........and we shall see very soon how they compare......as the first modded Peachtree GaN1 will soon be compared to the Coda 16 amp.....both driven by the Lumin X1 using Leedh digital volume control......this will be fun!

@ddafoe

Throwing it back at you, please show me why the $5000 AtmaSphere amplifier does not ’perform as well’ as the Orchard or the Hypex, or the Purifi.

The designer has said he can’t compete with the performance of the Putzey’s designed amps, so there is that.

Subjective opinions can not be debated so there is no point in discussing them. There is no right or wrong, nothing provable, nothing factual. No need to discuss what I have heard, what you have heard.

What we can discuss is objective performance. That can be quantified, measured, compared. It's what amp designers use to design their product. Most, but not all, endeavor to create a device with as little added distortion as possible. Please compare the distortion added to the signal by the Hypex and Purifi amps and compare to other class d amps. Tell me which are truest to the input signal. This is the only way to objectively judge and compare amps.

but unlike many others, they are based on facts.

Show me a GaN amp other than Orchard’s product that performs as well as Hypex or Purifi. Show me a $5000 class d amp that performs 5X better than the $1000 class d amps using Hypex or Purifi modules.

@kuribo, what are the facts you are talking about that create your absolutes in performance and value?   You are always talking in absolutes, but can't explain what you have listened to (or own) and what makes one perform better than another...  Does one sound better to you?   If so please explain the differences you hear?  What different speakers have you tried these different amps with?   Are you only going by measurements, then clearly say so that we all know your opinions on what is best and what offers the best value is based solely on the measurements you consider important.

Throwing it back at you, please show me why the $5000 AtmaSphere amplifier does not 'perform as well' as the Orchard or the Hypex, or the Purifi.

I haven't told you what speakers I own, but I'm guessing your answer will take that into account, right?

@ddafoe

Of course they are my opinions, but unlike many others, they are based on facts. If you want to argue the facts, have at it. Show me a GaN amp other than Orchard’s product that performs as well as Hypex or Purifi. Show me a $5000 class d amp that performs 5X better than the $1000 class d amps using Hypex or Purifi modules.

No rational reason whatsoever, from a performance standpoint, to spend $5000 and more for a class d amp. Of course if someone wants to spend $4000 for a flashy case to get performance that can be beaten by a $1000 Hypex or Purifi amp, it's their money to squander...

A solution in search of a problem. The best performing class d amps on the market today do not use GaN fets.

@kuribo, these and the many more you post are just your opinions, nothing more...

@milpai

You asked on what basis I find GaN amps lacking and said you were looking to learn. I gave you a thoughtful reply with leads on where to find further info to educate yourself. In reply, you insult. I expected as much. Information, like the GaN fet, is only as good as the implementation. If you were genuinely curious, you would have taken the time to actually do some homework and would have indeed found value in the reply. You got out what you put in and look intellectually lazy as well as dishonest in your intentions.

Whether or not I have heard the Atmos amp or any other has no bearing on what you or others may subjectively think about it after listening to it. I gave you cold, hard facts, when it seems what you want is for someone to tell you what you want to hear. Listen for yourself, no one else can tell you what you will prefer. If you understood the actual uselessness of other people’s subjective opinions you wouldn't be hitching your wagon to other’s subjective opinions and would see the ignorance of your question to me.

My issues are with poorly designed and implemented GaN amps, or expensive amps built to market to people who apparently care more about style than substance. As I said, these are my opinions based on actual objective data.

Is there a way to block specific user posts on threads here?