Network Switches
Hi-Fi+ latest review on Network Acoustics ENO, https://hifiplus.com/articles/network-acoustics-eno-ethernet-filter-and-streaming-cable/?goal=0_ff6d... |
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Let me add this final comment. For me, me only, I find myself so engaged to my music that at times it brings me to tears connecting with both the emotions and intentions of the artists. This kind of realism and emotional impact only came about as I improved my digital front end. Everything matters, as they say, when it comes to digital. I’m intentionally curious and rather relentless in my quest for this emotional connection to music. Some call it passion. Not all will share this passion. For them all of this switch and cable talk is nonsense and a chasing after the wind. This is understandable. |
Ethernet cables matter and they impact sound quality in important ways. Only way to know is to try for yourself. Speculation and thinking won’t get you there. You must try. If your system is resolving enough and you care about tone, realism and other sonic characteristics, then you may appreciate the sonic impact. I use Network Acoustics ENO ethernet cables and their ENO filter. Put both in your system and just listen. The improvement related to noise reduction was just fantastic for me. Yes, switches also matter. I use the English Electric switch. Not as much improvement as the ENO products, but still important to me. I have an Innuos Zenith 3 server and it certainly responded to these network additions. The difference was not small for me. The end result removed some glare and smearing and helped my digital front end sound far more at ease and natural. Realism improved greatly as more and more noise was removed. Like all things audio one has to try these in their own system and decide for themselves. No broad-brush statements saying they do nothing or everything are ever accurate in this hobby. To many complexities and variables are at play that we simply don’t fully understand. I think it’s important we step back and realize just how little the entire human race actually knows about the topic of digital audio and how it relates to individual hearing. In the decades to come we will understand more, but not right now. In addition, one person can only ever posses a very small percentage of the total knowledge currently available on a given subject (under 5% certainly). So the only way to really know for yourself is to try. To complicate things even further some of the products we try will work well, some not so well, and others not at all. Ha! Perhaps it’s time to gain valuable empirical evidence with your mind wide open. I’m afraid there are no shortcuts to this experience based approach to digital audio. |
Thanks @david. The audio community has been fed many half truth for a long time about various digital issues. A mix of skepticism and open mindness (i just made that up) is ‘a propos’. Your experience about Ethernet cables is most interesting. I can come up with multiple reasons why many things would change something: power cables, power regeneration or cleaners, any inter connect, any component, any settings, new Room couch, how warm devices are, how hot/cold the room is, and list goes on. unfortunately I can’t make a theory about Ethernet cables unless they are not meeting CAT specs. I built piles of switches and routers that sold for billions (not a typo). I understand every details of how the sw, chips, hardware work together. Not bragging, it’s my full time day job. Now I’m not and ASR kind of dude. Does not mean that because I don’t know or I can’t measure that it’s not happening. I’m very curious about this issue now. I would really love to have a chit chat with the fellows that design those audiophile switches, their spec sheets are not telling me much. CAT 5/6 cables are a bit delicate though. Some fancy enterprise switches have detection for bad cables. Bad cables happen and do cause problems. Mostly it happens at the connectors. More to learn there is. |
@lmcmalo Thank you very much for contributing to this thread and topic. Your experience and perspective are helpful and valuable. I'm glad you posted! I have (also) bypassed an 'audiophile' stand alone switch for my system. However, I have heard the results and contributions made by some of the 'audiophile' switches and fully understand the choice made and it's utility for those who go down that path. Like @sns I've invested in the power side, custom DC cabling, isolation (active and passive), grounding, etc. My personal experience with LAN cables is that they make a significant difference. Your use of the word "delicate" is so apropos. : ) Looking forward to your further contributions. - David. |
@sns Thanks so much for sharing your system chain. A major +1 to the following: I"m being extremely thorough here in attempt to illustrate the importance I've placed on every single aspect of network. Paying attention to DC and AC power sources is of utmost importance IME. I would add the importance of grounding as well...which you also addressed in your post. - David. |
First post here… just as well be on such a delicate topic. A little background as I’m new here. Electric engineer, did some analog electronics design. 35 years of designing wired and wireless equipment. I guarantee that you have used technology I invented and some hardware and software I contributed building. Unless one stays away from mobile phones and wifi :-) Audiophile for 40 years. Enough of this, only proves I’m old. There is a fundamental difference between IP networking and the other digital technologies that we are used to in audio…. DACs are very delicate machines in the digital section. There’s all sorts of opportunities for noise, jitter, skews and multiple issues potentially affecting sound quality. Folks get that complexity here. USB and SPDIF are simple “link layer protocols”. This means that those protocols allow for 2 devices to exchange data over a single physical link. The same applies to Bluetooth, AirPlay, in the wireless domain. USB and SPDIF are simple, basic protocols. They do not support FEC, or forward error correction. This opens the door to all sorts of clock, skew, jitter and noise problems. The unfortunate truth is that because of the protocols limitations it’s more dicey to move a bunch of bits from from the streamer to the DAC over those interfaces than it is to move the same bits from tidal/servers to the streamer, more in a second. Note that I’m not talking about noise propagating inside the components from those interfaces. This issue is orthogonal to messing up the bits in transit, it’s a design issue and well made digital interfaces can avoid noise propagation in a component with usual precautions, and costs associated. That would apply to any digital interfaces. Tl;dr - USB and SPDIF are fragile designs optimized for cheapness, fancy cables can make a difference there and discussions will continue to rage on. Now IP networking is something completely different. There’s 2 pieces to it. A) a link layer protocol, Ethernet, that moves data between 2 devices B) a network protocol, IP, that carry data between multiple switches/routers, possibly over the internet. Ethernet is the protocol that home switches deal with. Ethernet is a fairly simple protocol, but it has FEC and more features not relevant to this discussion. Ethernet layer will correct corrupted packets if possible or drop it if is not. Drops you may ask? Does not matter. The data that travels over it is layered like this: music data | Http, https, some other applications | tcp | IP | Ethernet IP protocol has its own error correction too, end to end between let’s say a local or internet music sever (Qobuz, tidal) and a streamer. And TCP sitting on top of that will handle retransmissions as needed. In this whole chain, there are zero opportunities for messing anything up. Either the data gets through with 100% integrity or it doesn’t. Please note that there is no timing/noise/jitter-what-have-you issues that apply here. This becomes a problem again once the music data needs to be transformed in USB or SPDIF or fed to a DAC. Complete non issue in the IP network. An ‘audiophile’ switch cannot do anything useful on the data integrity front that I can understand that a regular switch cannot do. The only thing I can see it can do is possibly keeping the noise low on those Ethernet links. Maybe. They have to use the same Ethernet transceiver chips as everyone else, it’s limited to the quality of board and components around and isolation. BUT. The target audience for this is not the fellow that streams from a Pi. The only place in the system I can see an ‘audio switch’ maybe making a difference is on the box where the streamer runs and feeds the DAC or convert to USB or SPDIF. I have 3 ways to do that on my system, a Naim ND5 XS2, a Mac mini and the network card on the Bricasti . Unexpectedly, they sound different, I’d even say very different. More unexpectedly, the Naim sounds quite a bit better than the network interface on the M3 (all with Roon). (to me anyways, better clarity, definition). I really think a good quality streamer should do a great job at isolating the noise from the digital interfaces, including Ethernet, and it’s hard for me to see how a fancy switch would make a difference. So, Maybe, I’m open minded. But until someone credible reports that it makes a major difference in a nice system, I’m not ditching my ubiquity POE switch (Nope, that’s not who I work for). I’m in good Company, Paul McGowan sells cables that cost more than my MA PL200ii speakers and a major ‘usb cables make a difference’ guy, but he refuses to go down the ‘Ethernet cables make a difference’ path. I’m at the same place, I run decent but not outrageous interconnect and MIT speaker cables, Gaia feet under my speakers and a couple of components which many see as snake oil potential, I’m just not there with ‘audio switches’… |
@david_ten Cable modem supplied by cable company placement near audio system> Audioquest Vodka ethernet> Netgear Nighthawk router powered by 12v 4a lps plugged into BPT 3.5 sig (modded) via DIY Helix with three strands VH Audio Airlock hot cable power cord>Synology NAS powered by over spec lps and Shunyata Python VX into BPT, and extremely modded Mac Mini (Intel I7 best processor available at time, Uptone MMK, JS-2 L{S, only most necessary services operational, went into DOS commands to shut down others many don't shut down) JS2 powered by VH Audio Airsine PC>(2) TPLInk MC200CM both over spec lps with Shunyata Cobra PC powered by lithium ion battery pack>SOTM SMS 200 neo powered by Uptone JS2>Audioquest Diamond USB>Uptone USB regen over spec lps,VH Audio Airsine pc>Musetec 005 DAC (usb Amenero w/OXCO clock) DIY Helix PC into BPT. I should mention all ethernet Audioquest Vodka, everything with exception of TPLinks going into BPT on dedicated AC, have two other dedicated AC lines for analog and amps. My house ground has also been taken care of, new grounding rod with equal length grounds cables so no ground loops. I also have separate ground cables coming from each of my three dedicated AC lines. I"m being extremely thorough here in attempt to illustrate the importance I've placed on every single aspect of network. Paying attention to DC and AC power sources is of utmost importance IME. |
Speaking of no absolutes, I'm done for time being with adding network switch. In the end, Renolab switch result in diminished sound quality. Without switch, images and sound stage wonderfully dimensional and life sized. With added switch, while there was a minute increase in lowest level information, image outlines were drawn too precisely, still three dimensional but with cookie cutter edges, not lifelike at all. My preference and experience is that images naturally blend into one another to some extent in both artificial and natural sound stages. With the switch it was if each performer in individual sound booth, way too precise and unnatural. At this point I'm making assumption the added clocking of switch was creating anomalies. My network is already optimized post server and NAS, sufficient clocking for my sound preferences. And so back to absolutes; perhaps adding switches is not beneficial in all network setups. At the same time, I'm not making argument another switch could be beneficial for me. Its been my experience network improvements up to now have been in region of lowering noise floor of system, some added lower level information in the sense of more clearly heard instrumentation or voices mixed at relatively lowest levels. But mostly I've heard sound stage and image improvements, another byproduct of lower noise floor. At this point I'm content with sound stage and imaging from my system, adding that last minutia of lowest level info isn't worth the cost. |
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I own the Paul Pang Quad switch, doesn't get any better.http://ppaproduct.blogspot.com/2015/07/audio-grade-switcher.html |
@bulkdevicesuk Hello, I see you are new here so - welcome! I don’t have a good answer to your question, but for best results I recommend starting your own new thread with the title, "server hard drive needed" or similar. Post it under digital. There are also other sites with computer/digital audio specific discussions you might try such as Audiophile Style (under Music Servers) or Audio Asylum (under Digital or PC Audio). Good luck. |
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“I’ve seen many reviews of other switches also claiming more natural sound from systems.” @sns, Of course, they all claim to do so! But to what degree, the only way to find out is by trying them out in your system. The noise is the #1 issue in any audio signal path. You lower or eliminate the noise and music starts to sound natural as possible. As I said before, the Telegartner M12 switch does a exemplary job of removing digital grunge and it does so transparently but at much larger scale than my previous reference, i.e. English Electric 8 switch and ENO Filter. In this hobby, most of us are striving to attain the next ‘level’ performance; so implementing a switch like M12 was the next logical step in my holistic approach of how my system going to sound when i cue up my music. In my system, the M12 switch was the game changer and a very worthy stable mate for my digital front end. Good luck with your journey, hope you find your ultimate Switch soon :-) |
Lalitk, I've researched your Telegartner switch in past, certainly impressed with technology. I'd expect lowered noise floor, so improved detail, transparency, etc. Based on reviews the only sound signature from the unit is 'natural'. I've seen many reviews of other switches also claiming more natural sound from systems. And so, in your experience, did the Telegartner deliver more natural sound quality than lesser switches you tried? And is that due to a more natural sound signature of switch itself, or simply because it exposed more of the natural sound signature of your entire system? In other words, are there variable levels of naturalness delivered by switches? An affirmative answer means there is in fact a sound signature or flavor delivered by switches. |
“RenoLabs switch has amazing build quality, would fit $3k plus category. ” The only way to know how Reno switch ($650) stacks against Innuos switch is by trying it in your system. Otherwise, it just a pure speculation on your part. Going from Reno to Uptone may yield ‘lateral’ improvements or different flavor, if any. I say this from my experience by trying switches, filters priced under $1K in my system. I am way passed some of these short term bandaid solutions :-) |
Well, at present I have switch playing 24/7, and I'll try one of my power cords that fit sound signature I'm looking for. Burn in and pc issues will be moot at that point. $3500 for Innuos a little steep for me. Uptone switch would be next try, the only reason didn't purchase is only one highest quality output, I need two, one for server, other for NAS. RenoLabs switch has amazing build quality, would fit $3k plus category. It may also be the switch is exposing something else in streaming setup. I'm presently using SOTM SMS200Neo in series with Uptone USB regen, perhaps using two usb decrapifiers is excessive, may try removing Uptone. Both on LPS, Sotm on Uptone JS2 |
If I continue to hear deficiency of new switch, along with it's improvements, the question becomes. What would a much more expensive switch like the Innuos bring to the party? Is lower noise floor sole improvement, or are you paying that extra money for something more, meaning more natural sound vs. lower cost switches. Assuming Innuos is superior in any parameter? |
I've heard that prior to using LPS and power conditioner on every single network piece. I'm also thinking perhaps the signature thing was less noticeable in past since streaming solution not as mature, advanced as now. Past upgrades improved noise floor, resolution to such an extent, all my attention went there, not so much on sound signature. This haze or less natural sound is a subtle thing, but still exposed on present extremely high resolution system. I know theoretically, network equipment shouldn't change sound signature, yet most of us have experienced theoreticals being broken. I do know a lot of these audiophile switches use generic switch circuit boards with upgrades parts and LPS added. Perhaps I'm hearing generic board liabilities. In any case, it will take a few more listening sessions to get to the bottom of this. I already know about placebo effect, expectation bias, and how to adjust, this not the deal here. |
Recently added network switch, has imposed sound signature. I received expected benefit of lower noise floor, more detail, resolution, transparency, didn't expect so much or any impact on the quality of sound. Just a bit less natural sound than prior, like a layer of electronic scrim added, quieter, yes, but like a haze added. I've improved other network equipment and cables in past, don't recall this much impact on sound signature. So, in your experience, have network upgrades affected sound signature? I'm burning in network switch, new ethernet cable as we speak, eliminate this as culprit. I'm also going to try various power cables. |
I have had an Orbi mesh system for a couple of years now. Although I run fiber from my main router to my main system and that works great, I operate my garage/outdoor system through one of the mesh satellites as described by @david_ten below with a 0.5M CAT8 cable from the Orbi satellite to a Metrum Baby Ambre then Jade DAC and it too sounds great with no issues (drop outs, etc.) whatsoever. I use the stock power supply on the satellite with no perceptible detriment to SQ but I do use LPSs on both fiber converters associated with my main system. |
@treebeard1 Yes, the satellite will have at least one, usually more LAN ports. If you go with this approach, consider brands/models which have larger "open" space access for the LAN and DC power cables. It will allow for easier cable connections, especially if the cables are thicker / stiffer. It will also allow for the satellite unit to stand properly "upright." |
@david_ten Thanks, this is great info. I never considered wifi because the DS Jr only accepts a hard wire connection but I'm sure the satellites have an ethernet jack. I actually researched mesh wifi a couple months ago to get better reception throughout the house and decided to hold off. I guess I need to revisit that decision. |
@treebeard1 I have, in the past, used Sonore and Uptone products in my chain. Though I am using a linear power supply on my Modem and Router, I cannot answer your question definitively "with the EtherRegen downstream" since I do not have one in my chain. Linear power supply reviews and owner feedback are consistent in pointing out a lower noise floor, greater transparency, and overall improvements in sound quality across most descriptors. Given the length of your generic LAN cable run (50 feet) I believe you will achieve better results by doing the following: Step 1. Forgo the LAN cable run by adding a Mesh Router Satellite close to your audio system / EtherRegen. Modem > Router >>> WiFi to >>> Mesh Router / Satellite This will isolate and separate your primary Modem and Router from the audio section of your system. Step 2. Use a linear power supply on the Satellite. Step 3. Add a short run of a high quality LAN cable from the Satellite to your Ether Regen. There are many decent, low cost linear power supplies. I use the HDPlex for my less critical accessories. Something along the lines of HDPlex, etc. will deliver results. However, in your application I suggest going with a higher quality linear power supply. I use the Keces P8 Ultra Low Noise linear power supply. There are other options, but most come in at a higher cost. If you want to spend less, then consider the Keces P3. The above approach will deliver a significant return on your investment and effort. There are a couple of additional steps you can take that are additive to the above. Those can be saved for later. I am curious how many are using an LPS on the modem and router (I have both) and what the result has been. I have heard this can be a significant improvement but I'm not sure how significant those gains would be with the EtherREGEN downstream. Brick Wall power conditioner > iFi 12v power supply (2) > modem and router > 50 ft. Ethernet cable (generic) > EtherREGEN with LPS-1.2 > PS Audio DSD Jr. bridge > LTA MZ2 > Halo A21 > Tekton DI |
@treebeard1, I highly recommend Supra CAT-8 LAN cable over WireWorld. This is a great sounding cable for the money. Send a message to the seller for 0.5m and he will be happy to oblige. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supra-CAT-8-ETHERNET-cable-1-meter-Made-In-Sweden-THE-BEST-FOR-NETWORK-AUDI... |
@thyname @david_ten is correct. I wasn’t clear but I am talking about the modem and router. Here’s the chain: Brick Wall power conditioner > iFi 12v power supply (2) > modem and router > 50 ft. Ethernet cable (generic) > EtherREGEN with LPS-1.2 > PS Audio DSD Jr. bridge > LTA MZ2 > Halo A21 > Tekton DI Planning on getting a .5 meter Platinum Starlight 8 Twinax Ethernet cable as well. Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks. |
Hello everyone. My Uptone EtherREGEN arrived last week and I must say it has made a very good impression on me. It's still breaking in but I'm already considering my next move to clean up the digital stream. I am curious how many are using an LPS on the modem and router (I have both) and what the result has been. I have heard this can be a significant improvement but I'm not sure how significant those gains would be with the EtherREGEN downstream. Does anyone have experience to share with the modem and router on an LPS and an EtherREGEN downstream. Uptone says I need to get the JS-2 LPS because the UltraCap LPS-1.2 doesn't have enough amperage. Only in this hobby do you spend a grand on $100 of cheap electronics :( |
I don't know if this has been posted yet but there's a person over in Germany who has this video on YouTube on how to get the most out of a network switch device and for most DIYers, it looks easy enough to do. The Cisco Meraki originally went for over $1k but you can get them on eBay for about $100. HIs mods are worth a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBvkY034VBk All the best, Nonoise |
@grannyring, We shared the same approach to ‘cleanse’ our home network by employing EE Switch 8 combined with Network Acoustics ENO cabling and Ethernet filter. And they have worked beautifully and effectively. So what prompted the change? I have been exploring streamer / DAC’s that have adopted to latest i2S protocol (i.e. components supporting uncompressed audio over IP Network) thus eliminating the need to rely on aging USB/AES/SPDIF protocols. You may read about my new digital components in virtual system page, https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9445 Back to the topic on hand, a high performance switch like M12 made perfect sense since my new DAC/streamer relies heavily on the robustness of home network. The difference in performance between the two setups (EE8 w/ENO & M12) were far from marginal to fully justify the 3x cost of M12. With M12, everything is more spacious, more energy and openness; you’re certainly more engaged and emotionally connected to your music. The build quality of M12 is first rate (and exquisite) not to mention very robust M12 X-Coded connectors. My evaluation is not complete as I’m bringing in JCAT LPS along with Signature LAN Cable that will go between M12 switch and Merging +player. I am hoping to retain the stock Telegärtner M12 X-coded/MFP8 IE GOLD LAN Cable between the router and M12 switch, which is quite excellent unless I can justify the 2nd JCAT Signature LAN cable :-) https://jcat.eu/product/optimo-3-duo/ https://jcat.eu/product/signature-lan-cable-gold-m12-x/ |
