Good morning. I have been out of any kind of audiophile circles for a long time. We moved into a house with built-in speakers about 5 years ago, which I really enjoy, but of course it's better for casual listening at a party than for quality listening. Our family room is in a pretty open space that borders our living room and kitchen, so my wife is very focused on speakers being unobtrusive in appearance. I was therefor looking for small speakers and got turned onto KEF LS50s, which sounded really nice for the price, and more than good enough for my desires. And they are small. But I didn't really focus on their "untraditional" looks. It turns out that was a deal-breaker when I brought them home to demo.
So, I am back to square one. What I would really like is a speaker that is about the size of the LS50s, or maybe a little bigger, and has a nice looking, traditional wood finish. Bright colors and artificial surfaces, no matter how good they sound, need not apply...
I would say my self-imposed budget is around $2,000 at the top. Unless new speakers leads me down the audiophile slippery slope, the speakers would be powered by my old Adcom 545 II amp and GTP 500 II tuner, with either an Adcom CD changer or Apple TV streaming the music. Not exactly Audiogon Best In Class, but I think it will bring a smile to my face. And you never know if this will lead to upgrading the whole shebang.
Any thoughts appreciated. Not that it matters, but I am in the Chicagoland area.
If the issue with the LS50 was the Orange Doily, KEF does have other colors available (or at least they used to). I almost purchased a pair of LS50s that had a Black Enclosure but with the a Blue Baffle. I instead purchased the Sonus Faber Venere 2.0 in Walnut. I'm using them in a Media Room. They have a more forward and fuller sound compared to the Harbeths, which works great for movies.
When you have a moment, consider calling Kurt at Echo Audio to see what kind of alternative colors are available for the LS50. Also, I'm not affiliated with Echo (but I can say that they're legit, and have become a semi-frequent magnet for my disposable income).
Couldn't agree more on the P3s. It does things that seem impossible for their size, and they sound like music. Easy to listen for hours but still focus on the details in the music if you want to.
For me too it would be the Harbeth P3ESR. If more low frequency extension were required I would add two small subwoofers, tucked away somewhere and kept in check by a DSpeaker Antimode 8033 room eq. My P3ESRs are on my desktop, but I did try them in my main system with a B&W PV1d - they integrated perfectly. They like a bit of amplifier power. In my study that is a refurbished Quad 405-2 and for the experiment in the main system in my big living room it was a Quad 606-2.
Ahh, William (Bill) Watkins Sr., inventor of the famous Infinity Watkins Dual Drive woofer. Dude is a genius. His son Bill Jr. is a pleasure to work with on driver refurbishment. Top drawer.
The best small speaker I have heard, at that price point, has to be the B&W PM-1. I heard a pair of these on stands and could not believe the accurate tonality, clarity, soundstage and low tight bass. I really thought I was listening to the big floorstanders sitting next to them and I thought there was a subwoofer playing.
Thanks! I really appreciate all the advice in this thread and spent a lot of time googling pictures, hunting down demos, and reading reviews. I made the right decision for me, and if looks and innocuous appearance are on your list, the Harbeths are a great way to go. I loved the sound of the KEFs, but the appearance (orange tweeter looked like an orangutan's sphincter) were a bit problematic for the spousal unit. lol
chiguy said: "Will try to check out the Harbeths (never heard of that brand!)"
I say: You must listen if you want to end your search :) If you like them, you will probably hold on to them for many many years until you replace them with another Harbeth:)
Thanks. I did get the Harbeth P3ESR speakers quite a while ago. For me, they're perfect. Sound is neutral and excellent. The speakers are very, very small and very traditional looking. Fit and finish is very good and attractive. My wife can live with the size and look, and I love the sound.
I don't know if you were able to find what you were looking for. I do know you good attempt to find a custom build. I know that Stetron International has several speaker options that can be tailored to your needs. https://stetron.com/category/speakers/
Ohmspeakers.com. Has all shapes and sizes of their Walsh models for placement most anywhere and I find they tend to sound as big and open as anything for their size. Might be worth a look.
I should clarify that the total price of the speakers/stands/cables was not less than the cost of used Harbeths here. Just the cost of the speakers. :)
Well, I ordered a pair of Harbeth P3ESRs, sight unseen, woofer unheard. I appreciate all of the responses here. With this being my first set of posts here, it was very helpful and somewhat surprising to get so many good, well thought out ideas.
I ended up with the Harbeths because I felt that they were about as compact and nice looking (and traditional looking) as any of the suggestions, and the reviews were overwhelmingly favorable. I was able to get a deal through a friend's connection that was cheaper for a new pair than any of the slightly used pairs of Harbeths here or on eBay. The deal includes speaker stands and cables, so I should be good to go.
Perhaps this will encourage me to replace my vintage Adcom amp and tuner and start spending way too much money on a sound system. We will see!
Thanks again for all the thoughtful comments and ideas.
I mentioned my Adcom amp and tuner in the very first post. I mentioned the classic rock music I mainly listen to in subsequent posts. The room size is the issue. It's kind of a family room and living room in one open area. And that is open to the kitchen as well. That is why the speakers have to blend in visually and be more traditional looking than the LS-50s.
The area, excluding the kitchen side of the house, is about 13' wide and 28' long, with about half the length of the room being the family room area with tv and stereo, and the other half being the living room.
I am zeroing in on the Harbeths, but haven't yet seen them, heard them or pulled the trigger. ;-)
I just read through the thread, and realized that the OP, Chiguy, never gave some of the basic facts one needs when making speaker decisions, unless I missed the info.
When shopping for speakers, the size of the room they are going in is paramount. We also need to know the power amp being used, or considered. Chiguy did mention the amp is a 20 year old one that he might be replacing, but that doesn't help much.
Also what he'll be using the speakers for, music or movies, and what volume levels he's hoping to attain.
We can throw out ideas all day, but without some basic information such as above, it's not really much help. One thing I would suggest, if the OP is allowing his wife some say in this speaker decision, he better be bringing her along on the shopping trip rather than bringing yet another pair home to only have her veto them.
My favorite bookshelf speakers are the AE (Acoustic Energy) AE1 MKII Reference made in the UK. Make sure you get the MKII as the difference is HUGE. I compared both side by side! These speakers play surprisingly loud when called upon to do so, and as you turn the volume up, the sound only gets better, no compression, just beautiful music, unconstrained and imaging is second to none. In a blind test you will mistake them for floor standers. The new version is $5000 per pair, so I suggest you track down on the used market. Best of luck!
The ELAC UB5s will deliver what you are looking for. Incredible bass capability in a neutral, detailed sound. They will need power though- a good hefty 100WPC.
@kalali- I have heard the JA Pulsars and without hesitation they are the best speakers I have ever heard and worth every penny of their $7700 retail price. Very good bass, excellent dynamics and an unparalleled clarity and transparency yet with sweetness and delicacy. Other more costly speakers have more scale and can fill larger rooms (not that the Pulsars bad in this aspect) but they simply do not sound as good. The Prisms (~ 3700 I believe) are not close to the sound of the Pulsars and can easily be beaten for the money- e.g. Harbeth C7ES3.
Not sure if you already pulled the trigger on new speakers, but I recently got a pair of Ascend Sierra 2's, and after a couple of weeks of listening, I am pretty much blown away. Others I've had in the past few years:
I'm running them with a Rega Elex-R, and they sound really great - nice tight, tuneful bass, and a ridiculous amount of detail from the ribbon tweeter. And my favorite thing is that they sound fantastic at lower volumes, as I live in a condo. And I got the "B-stock" which is $300 cheaper, and I have no idea why because they are drop dead gorgeous, and I don't see any imperfections. Hope this helps.
Guru QM 2. This little box out of Sweden gets the music more right than almost anything I have heard. Everything sounds great on these. Lots of PRAT, vocals are superb, and bass is nothing short of amazing for the size or quite a bit bigger for that matter. I play lots of rock, acoustic, rock, bluegrass, and all fantastic. Hard metal is goodish. It's almost eerie how they project into the room. Put them against a wall or in the corners as they are designed for and enjoy. They are little gems. Have them setup in a second system in the upstairs living room placed in the corners with a 100wx2 tube amp and they are outstanding. I have heard the LS50s in the same room. They have a more hifi presentation to my ears but not as natural and are tinny in comparison. They did absolutely no justice to any kind of rock imo.
French high-end AUDIO Build and performance excellence personified and these are very efficient to boot at 91db......
BUT (again) .....
revealing and engaging speaker excellence capability is a double-edged sword. Shortcomings and compromises upstream (amp and source) will be exposed and magnified in lock-step.
"...,Best standmounter £800-£1200, Awards 2015. ATC has struck gold again. These are the most talented standmounters anywhere near this price Tested at £1,200 ...."
BUT .... With a qualifier as already highlighted above .....
You will do significantly better with an eventual move-up to upgraded quality and performance from current fare electronics .
Find a pair of usher be 718s. Used in excellent condition should be around $1300. I've heard many of the suggestions, and these are best. Incredible bass, very warm, and they look nice. If you want more traditional aesthetic, perhaps try the totem rainmakers, however you may need to tuck a sub somewhere in the room.
I know these are way outside of the OP's price range but has anyone heard the Joseph Audio Pulsars? Just curious how they compare to more pedestrian "bookshelf" speakers.
I was out of the country for a couple of weeks but am now back and ready to get into this again.
I looked back through all the responses and it seems like, when considering my size/appearance requirements, the popular suggestions were:
Dynaudio Excite 14 or Excite 18 Harbeth P3ESR KEF 300 Ascend Sierra 2
and possibly: Dali Ikon2 Mark2 Tannoy DC8 Joseph Audio Prisms RM22 or RM7 mm de Capo's B&W CM6 S2 Totem Model-1 Signature Rega RS
I will look around here and elsewhere, but if anyone happens to stumble on a nice deal on a pair of used speakers on the above list, kindly let me know. I hope to hear before I buy, but imagine most speakers suggested here will make me more than happy, given my size/location issues and the fact that I've been listening to headphones and whole house speakers for the last 5+ years. So I may just take my chances, if necessary. :-)
Thank you all for the ideas! I am very excited to find speakers as well as stands (and probably interconnects).
Thanks everyone -- lots to consider. FWIW, I don't mind internet shopping although I'd like to have a pretty good idea that something is going to work visually and sound-wise before being on the hook for shipping stuff back. Speakers, I imagine, aren't cheap to ship.
I'd much rather get a used set of good $2500 speakers for $1300 rather than a new pair of $1300 speakers...
The nice thing about the mm de Capo's is that they are very efficient so if you ever upgrade your amplifier you could go with a sweet sounding 300B amp which will make those speakers really sound big. Their mid/woofer driver is directly wired to your amplifier and is a good part of the equation.
Klipsch are good, big sound, so are Harbeth, Dynaudio. I use the XTZ Master M2 and would recommend them without hesitation. Absolutely great speakers, powerful, detailed at each spectrum level, balanced and more. These are audio jewels unknown in the USA. An absolute must!!! N.B: they don't sound good right out of the box and really do need the 50 hrs break-in, just like real high end stuff...
As soon as I saw this thread, I predicted a lot of brands being suggested, and there surely are!
I'll 2nd the Acend Sierra 2 though. These are some serious big sounding speakers that can take 250 watts at higher volumes and make your jaw drop, I am not kidding. The Raal ribbon tweeter has a higher level of accuracy than domes but is never harsh.
It sounds like the OP is doing this old school, shopping from store to store, and expecting to pay retail. The internet direct prices offer much better bang for buck if one is willing to try a 30 day trial.
Another though occurred to me : Red Rose Ribbon Monitors from Mark Levinson (the man, not the company). The front grill cloth extends a few inches above the baffle (to protect the baffle-less ribbon tweeter), but it's otherwise just a nicely finished shoebox sized monitor with a very big, very dynamic sound. These may be tough to track down and aren't the most neutral speaker ever made, but they produce really big sound for their size.
I'd say the Dynaudio Excite speakers are very nice. Have a pair of Dali Zensor 3 speakers and they are by far my favorite under-$2K speakers and I went through a dozen monitors over the past few years before finding these gems. They do everything beautifully and have great low end response. I had the LS50's for a couple of months and found them strident and hard to drive with my 175wpc Plinius integrated amp. So, an unconventional speaker that I finds fabulous, particularly when paired with their sub, is the Gallo Strada II. The speakers disappear into the room and they are rather small in size. They are in your budget if you find them used. Good luck.
I would check out Saturday Audio Exchange if I lived in your area. I'm in Iowa and get there occasionally. They carry MonitorAudio, PSB, Paradigm, and Golden Ear, so you could listen to several potential solutions in one spot. The Golden Ears may not make the aesthetic cut, but are sonically a contender. I heard the Monitor Audio GX-50 in a direct comparison with the KEF LS-50 in Florida and strongly preferred the GX-50, (in fairness, neither was set up well physically though and the MA lists closer to $2K). The Saturday Audio Exchange website has a pair of GX-50s, new in Ebony (a gorgeous, jewel-like finish IMO), for $1500- which is a very good price, from what I have seen. Often overlooked, the Paradigm's Prestige 15s are also attractive and have gotten rave reviews. On a side note I've listen to LS-50s at least 6 different times- really only once where they were positioned well and demoed with decent stuff. They did not light a fire for me. I even wondered if the stores were not really interested in selling them- on the other hand many demos (not just KEF) are poorly executed. The R-300 were much more enjoyable in the same room. I have not listened to the Excite 14s, but have heard the older Dynaudio Excite 12s & 16s several times and liked them a lot. No connection to any retailer or manufacturer. Good Luck.
On upgrading the wife, that is a great suggestion unless you like her, then you just have to reminder her how much you love her, but love is a two way street and accepting each other for who they are is part of marriage and love. So that's why you should accept my speaker choice.
The Khorns are a good suggestion, like you say ,if you have good corners. One thing for certain, you will never have to say," if I only had a better pair of speakers" . I have Khorns and that's why I bought them, and have never regretted that purchase.
I saw that you were advised to listen to the larger PSB bookshelf, the PSB Imagine B. I have owned a pair for about 4 years now and can say with some confidence that they would make it past the aesthetics committee, particularly the Dark Cherry finish. Great fit and finish. You and I appear to have similar musical tastes. And I am pleased with the sound overall. More about that below.
I normally listen to these with a Bryston B60 integrated amp, but I have hooked them up to my ancient Adcom GFA 535 and they sound fine. No comparison with the Bryston, obviously. And they sound even better with my newer Benchmark AFB2 amp. (And by the way, I hated parting with my old Adcom CD player too, probably the best piece of equipment I’ve ever owned in terms of price/performance.)
Regardless of the amp used, you’ll probably want at least a small sub-woofer for fuller sound, though they do sound pretty good without. You’d have room in your budget for that, and I find that it is easier to hide a subwoofer out of the way than to negotiate for big speakers.
These sound best at least 12" from the wall behind them, the bass port being at the back. I would recommend against this speaker if you’re planning on actually putting them on a shelf. You’ll want at least 24" stands for them - I prefer them on my 28" stands - so you might try to stretch your budget for the Imagine T2 and forego the sub. These have only a slightly larger footprint, but they are floor-standers with the same drivers as the B, just an extra woofer and cabinet volume for more low end.
About the sound: The tweeters in these are very good and will give you a nice, reasonably tight image for critical listening, albeit in a pretty narrow sweet spot. Don’t be afraid to toe them in - in my room, I like them pointed just wide of my shoulders. The bass is tight and accurate. And both work well together - you’ll be surprised at their sound for their size. Once broken in, I was amazed at how well they play even loud, complex passages (i.e. Staind). They might struggle with this type of music, however, if you have a huge living room. These speakers aren’t my first choice for classical music, though.
I’ve taken a while here to say that I think these are pretty decent speakers for the money, and I’ve heard them respond well to most of the other tweaks I’ve made in my system - power, interconnects, new amp, etc. I don’t think you’d be at all disappointed with the addition to your current gear. Hope this helps.
Oh, by the way, do listen to the Joseph Audio speakers recommended by an earlier writer, if you get a chance. The only thing is, my spouse HATES my similarly-shaped Pulsars, so you’d want to check that box before you fall in love with the speakers. I don’t quite get her reaction to them, but mine are placed deep in the man-audio cave where she doesn’t have to see them. Good luck!
I have a pair of Genesis Physics model 7s sitting in the basement because my wife thinks they are too big. They have some of the best tweeters I've ever heard. PSB Imagine XBs are the largest she would let me get. Thank goodness for the man cave where I call the shots!) The PSBs are pretty good. Amazing bass and vocals. I can't vouch for the sound stage because their placement is compromised by she-who-must-be-obeyed.
I wish I had know that the guy who designed the Genesis is in business on his own His name is Huw Powell of Human Speakers and I believe I read that the Adcom 545 is his preferred amp. I would strongly encourage you to visit his site and give him a call. He has a small but devoted following and would definitely have some suggestions that optimize your amp. BTW, the Model 7s were an absolute steal when I bought them around 1990 for $100 I think, and no, I will NOT sell them. I would sell the PSBs and buy the Human QT 2+ in a heartbeat. (the Model 61s are too big)
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