My New Magnepan 1.7i's sound dull and lifeless on the top end...why?

I’ve high passed my 1.7is at 100hz with dual tekton 2x10 subs, rca inputs.

played around a bit with sub xover, volume and phase settings for room/placement.

Happy camper here..

I just received a call from the hifi shop that my Maggie LRS+ speakers have arrived. I would say “finally” but it was only a three month wait, which is a rather big departure for me since I’ve always bought everything I own from stock. I’m not a very patient guy…

 

Immediately upon receiving the call I put my pair of original MMG’s up for sale on another site, at a price I hope someone long interested in a pair of Maggie’s but hesitant about taking a more substantial financial plunge will decide to buy. I mean $275 for a pair of speakers as good as these is a pretty good deal.  It’s worth a toe in the water at that price. 
 

 The audio press went fairly gaga over the original MMG model when it was first released, and if the equally gaga opinions currently being tossed out there for the LRS+ are even half accurate I’ll be a happy camper. The two brands of speakers that have consumed most of my interest and money over the years are Magnepan and Thiel. There’s more than just “something about them” that keeps me wanting one or the other. 
 

I pick up the speakers this coming Saturday. Woohoo!

@bdp24 Yes. I meant “pecussiveness”. Autocorrect messing me up again.

My experience with Magnepans are my former 1.7i and the AXPONA tests of the LRS and the LRS+. I added a pair of REL T/9i subs to my Maggies and it made a world of difference. Not hard to dial in. But I think the addition of the subs and what kind of subs could be room dependent. I have thought about getting a pair of LRS+ just for kicks. I haven’t pulled the trigger on that yet though. Going to AXPONA at the end of the week. Maybe something will happen there. 

I sold off my 1.7i’s not long after I had them solely because their height and overall presence in my room made me feel as though I was on Easter Island…

I replaced the 1.7i’s with a pair of .7’s, which I found to be much more responsive, perhaps even “brighter”, for lack of a better description. I had a Pass Labs X150.5 during this period, as well as a couple of tube preamps - all was good. 
Fast forward to the present and I’m now absolutely digging a pair of original MMG’s whilst I await the arrival of the new LRS+.  Pass with Maggies and Thiels is usually a solid matchup. 
 

My current setup is a good deal less involved with equipment. I’m enjoying a Belles 250i hybrid Mosfet integrated amplifier with the MMG’s, a coupla Schiit dacs, a cd transport, a cheap-seats pro-Ject turntable, and an Aurender 2TB music server. Back to basics more or less and everything is fine. Oh, and no sub. 

One difference between open baffle dipoles (such as planars) and dynamic drivers in enclosures (whether sealed or ported) is that dipoles "move" air from one side of the planar to the other---leaving the air pressure inside the room unaffected, while box speakers change the air pressure inside the room (and inside the enclosure, which is why the suspensions of drivers intended for use in enclosures differs from that intended for open baffle use).

@kingbarbuda, did you mean to say "percussiveness" rather than "persuasiveness"? If so, I find the bass panels of the big Maggies to have a very percussive sound, which is why they reproduce piano and drums so well. But that’s more a mid-bass rather than deep-bass (40Hz and down) phenomenon. Magnepan has been working on a dipole woofer system for a few years now, which uses multiple dynamic drivers in a sealed enclosure. It will be available as an add-on for current Magnepan models, and as the woofer system for a new model: the 30.7 For Condos.

Eminent Technology already offers such a woofer system, and then there is the state-of-the-art OB/Dipole Sub from Rythmik Audio/GR Research.

@bdp24 your point is well taken. The point I was trying to get across is that Maggies do not move air. They don’t have traditional drivers they move air. Hence, no persuasiveness in the sound. 
 

@charliech No high pass filter used. RELs were connected to amps with high level REL cables made by Kimber and later Analysis Plus to amp binding posts. Crossover was tuned to my Maggies and the room. It’s been a while since I had the Maggies in my system. But they were crossed likely at around 80-100Hz. 
 

I would also recommend getting the Mike Powell silver Ag Maggies upgrade and putting the 1.7i pairs on better stands. 

Not to be argumentative, but Maggies are NOT ribbon loudspeakers. Well, the tweeter in the 3.7i, 20.7i, and 30.7 is a ribbon driver, but all the rest of the Maggie line and all their drivers are planar-magnetics, not ribbons. A "ribbon" driver is a very specific thing (the diaphragm of the driver and the conductor that causes it to move are one in the same), not just any ol’ planar.

Calling Maggies a ribbon loudspeaker is like calling an electric bass a bass "guitar". Common (Steve Guttenberg regularly refers to Maggies as ribbons, and John Atkinson always calls his electric bass a bass guitar), and incorrect. ;-)

@kingbarbuda "Magnepans NEED subwoofers. They do. They are ribbon speakers with no air movement and no percussion. There is no slam. They need subwoofers. I added a pair of REL T/9i subs to my 1.7i and it revolutionized the sound."

Can you elaborate how you connected your RELs to your system?  Did you just set the crossover on the subs?  If so, what did you set them to?  Did you do a high pass filtering on the 1.7s?  I have some 1.7is on order and want to have two subs as well and am trying to figure out the best way.  

Right now, I have MMGs and I'm using a Bluesound Node and it's sub out with a single sub (and its high pass filtering and low pass filtering) to connect everything, and it sounds pretty good to me.  But I want to have two subs with the 1.7s.  Thank you.

 

@trumpetbri Glad to hear it! Maggie’s are glorious. Anyone who says they are inaccurate is delusional .

Okay, little update here...and this is for MY particular ROOM.  I think I've solved my situation, and posting in case it helps any of you.  I have a small room, and had the tweeters on the inside all this time, figuring it was the best plan with my little space. WRONG BRIAN!!!  I moved them to the outer edges, with slightly more toe in, and the difference is NOT subtle!!  Beautiful highs, openness, and imaging.  Plus it spread the music on a wider stage, with no loss of excellent imaging.  It's actually more focused in a real stage way, and as it was with my previous set ups. I'm now pretty damned happy, as set up the other way, they sounded like they were playing in their cardboard boxes!!!  So there you have it.  Your room may vary, but try what I did if issues, and remember to tow em in well. Ahhhh.  Back to Maggie May Bliss!

OP, this will answer some questions:

I’ve been a loyal Maggie owner for decades using 10s, 1.6s and 3.6s as my main speakers. I even bi-amped my 3.6s using a Pass Labs XVR -1 crossover. I moved on to YG Acoustics and couldn’t be happier. The YG’s are more accurate, neutral, detailed and musical.

I have no affiliation with GR, but found the video and measurements to be informative.

Did the original post guy have any changes to his? 

Yes, he had pushed the banana plug in too far and it was contacting elements. Your issue may be different. I didn't like my Mac 402 with my .7 Maggies. Much better with a Parasound A21 and a lively preamp. 

Hi Friends, 

So I am at about 250 or so hours with my new 1.7i's, and also experiencing the lack of highs, and sort of lifeless sound as well. Do they ever open up more, after more hours...or is this it?  🤔  They are quite slow sounding, and I have a McIntosh MC 252 driving them, on its 4 ohm Taps.  So weird. I'm  not used to Maggies sounding slow, as I've owned MG 12's in the past, along with. 5's, and these sound nothing like those.  So will these open more in time? Did the original post guy have any changes to his?  Really curious, and also wondering if I should start driving them hard and loud to get em to open shop.  Just don't know.  Thanks for any insight.  -Brian.

@eatapc Hi. I am a former Maggie 1.7i owner. This is what I recommend:

1. Magnepans NEED subwoofers. They do. They are ribbon speakers with no air movement and no percussion. There is no slam. They need subwoofers. I added a pair of REL T/9i subs to my 1.7i and it revolutionized the sound. 
2. I agree the binding posts, fuse and jumper are steel plate garbage. I replaced the steel plate jumper and cheap fuse with Mike Powell’s silver upgrade. It’s a sliver humper and a silver tube replacing the fuse. Those changes greatly improved the top end. I am sure if you are handy enough and can replace the crossover and binding posts, more benefits will accrue. 
3. These Maggies need powerful solid state amps for regular driving, but also for headroom and dynamics. Schiit Vidars are insufficient. Amps like the Brystons and Pass Labs are good. 
I hope this was helpful. 

I just bought a used pair of 1.7i speakers, in pristine condition and only 7 months old. I own a pair of .7s and wanted to upgrade. The 1.7i speakers sound bad. Dull, bassy, no high-frequency detail. I was hoping to get more low-end response, but I wasn’t expecting the dull, lifeless sound. I am very experienced in setting up Maggies. Magna Risers don’t help. Different amps don’t help. Tweeters in vs. out don’t help. Neither does moving the speakers and my listening chair help. I can get them optimized, but I can’t remove the shelf in the frequency response (about 5 or 6 dB starting in the midrange, so that the lower mids and bass are elevated). Is this how they sound? Is there a large variation from one pair to another? My .7s sound awesome in the same room with the same equipment.

I would put pictures up if I could, the crossover box looks very nice on the speakers, I have also done a stand upgrade in the back. Both are bolted into the stock frame.

Just updated my Account picture. You can see the crossover box there. 

@kingbarbuda I made the crossover myself, just upgraded the factory crossover, kept the values exactly the same.
You need 115.8uf total for the mid section (3x33uf+10uf+6.8uf), 10uf for the tweeter, and a 1.4mh inductor for the bass panel.
If you follow the existing layout, you can just build a crossover using the same layout. A schematic is also available online.
I had to build a box attached to the speakers in the back of the panel, I put my crossover inside it. You can go about doing it however you see fit.
I went with mundorfs because they are very highly rated boutique parts, build it well and build it once.
Changing the crossover is an absolute must on these speakers.

P.S. Just  watched GR research's video, and his  way of building the crossover is his own, but I can tell you this, the stock configuration after changing all the parts is not lacking in the least. Treble is beautiful, shimmers that are incredibly detailed and never harsh. Everything is in balance. 

@yuviarora did you install the GR-Research Maggie upgrade or are the parts you mentioned above something you selected yourself, or was your upgrade obtained from someplace other than GR-Research and if so, where? I have a pair of 1.7i. Thanks!

@bdp24 I haven’t watched that video, but I will. The post was the 1st thing I chucked, now my crossover is soldered onto my cables directly.
I have Mundorf Evo Supreme oils for the mids, Mundorf Supreme Silver oil for the Tweeter, Jantzen wax 12 gauge Coil inductor for the Bass, Neotech 14 gauge Solid OCC Copper for the internal wiring.... The speakers sound incredible, Jazz is just to die for.
One of the coolest surprises was Electronic music, which previously sounded like monkeys beating pots and pans on the speakers, is now one of the most detailed, crisp 3 dimensional sound I have heard on any speakers.
My friends call the Maggies "The Spaceship". EDM sounds like a mushroom trip, no distortion whatsoever.
Fantastic speakers, but the crossover upgrade is an absolute must in my opinion.

Absolutely @yuviarora, the binding posts as well (Cardas posts will fit right in the stock holes). That whole plate is filled with ferrous parts! Have you watched the GR Research YouTube video in which Danny Richie measures the 1.7 and looks into it's x/o? Well worth your time. A YouTube search for "GR Research" will bring up all Danny's videos.

The crossover in the 1.7i is pure junk. Replace the capacitors and the inductor, ditch the stock  wiring. Lose the fuse
And you  will have dynamic range coming out of those speakers that you  would not believe. 
I am saying this, because I have a pair myself, and did all the upgrades. 

Sounds to me like you set everything up right.  Those stock steel jumpers are junk.  Pass Labs have plenty of current to drive those ribbons.  Anticables work well with Maggies but maybe you just need more break in time.  You may try tilting forward a couple inches to see if that helps because what you are describing doesn't make sense.  I owned 1.7i's and used Anticables and their jumpers with high current amps and the one thing that was never lacking was upper ranges.  And don't be  influenced by measuring devices.  The two best ones you have are the ones on either side of your head.

I had a similar problem with my MMG's last year. I thought the tweeters were blown, however, I took a shot and tried this: I removed the binding post plate and found that the wires from the crossover to the plate were slightly loose. I tightened them up and they're back to normal. I don't know how this happened, perhaps through shipping. Either way, it might be worth looking into. Best of luck.

Jon

Are you sure there is not some snakeoil selling going  here?

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, and sorry if this is a dumb comment, but just check that the external fabric is not adhered to the speaker membrane anywhere. Often they're kinda stuck here and there and can release by themselves but sometimes don't.
That would deaden a panel. 
You'll know by looking side on to see if the fabric is flat or not.

nayls02 OP

The 1.7I is said to be the same evil load in the HF as the 1.7 with very low impedance combined with high -phase angle makes for nasty EPDR loading.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/magneplanar-1.7-speaker-impedance-phase.gif

I wouldn’t expect tubes to have much up there they will sound very rolled off. And Class-D won’t like it either.
Amps to look at are ones that have the reputation for not even breaking a sweat into that kind of loading.
I can think Krell for sure and I’m surprised the Pass mono’s didn’t work a bit, but they are Mosfet, and not quite as muscle bound into those loads as a bi-polar (bjt) Krell.

Cheers George

russ691,216 posts07-29-2021 12:28pmI just wanted to add, make sure your banana plugs are not inserted too far. They can sometimes foul some wiring or reach the panel. Also take a flashlight and look at the wiring near the crossover and see if you see something disconnected. I seriously doubt both panels would be a problem but it is possible that a new guy mis-wired them.  
Apologies for the delayed response. We have a winner! Banana plugs were inserted too far. Backed them off a 1/8", and the magical highs appeared. I must say, these Maggie's deliver incredible musicality and detail. 

Thanks again for all the suggestions and the fix from russ69.

Agreed, very odd, especially since whenever some solo violin comes up at random it's actually impossible to skip or change the tune since it's so darned engaging. One thought, you have a lot of 'gear' going on here. Maggies really aren't that finicky, I recall using some of the priciest Nordost Blue heaven cable and it really dulled things down. Mostly bass, but plain 10 gauge wire sounded much better. If you are 'upgrading' anything based on cables, I'd start there, replace with more ordinary and especially high gauge stuff since Maggies like current. 

That is very unusual for Magnepans...usually the opposite...speaker placement is very important with Maggies. I would try different positions and angles and make sure they are a couple of feet off the wall.

Hello nayls02 . Check the fuses on the lower part of the rear of the panels. Replace them with 1 or 2 amp fast blow fuses, preferably ceramic.

All Magnepan speakers require a lively back wall to generate the proper sound at the listening position. If the back wall is too damped, it will muffle the high frequencies. Remove any damping panels, foam, etc from behind the speakers and listen. Maggies do not respond well to rooms extensively treated for cone speakers.

Sounds strange. I bought my pair of 1.7i's about 2 years ago with never have seen or listened to a Magnepan in my life. I figured for that low dough it was worth taking a chance. Hooked them up to my Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated amp with KT-150'S and was blown away by the sound! Plenty of highs and mids. I also use AntiCable speaker wire and the stock jumpers. I run two subs from the single out on the Primaluna. Blows away the Vandersteen 3A Signatures that I replaced. Dana

I had the LRS for a while and liked them so much I stepped up to the 1.7i

I find they would run OK on a 25 watt tube pre/power amp (Cary Audio), a 50 watt tube integrated (Jolida), but they shine with big SS power (Adcom GFA-365 mono-blocks).

They sound great to me.  Placement is five feet (5') from the front wall, tweeters out, toe-in to aim just outside your ears.

Past speakers in the same room were KEF 104/2, Infinity RS II, Klipsch Chorus II.

PS - I can't hear above 13kHz....................................

williethe53b is Back!  "rabid wild animals?" WTF?

1.7i's sound like they have a head cold because of where the inductor is placed in the crossover. 

If you don't want to mess with the insides, the easy solution is to buy a Shiit Loki or Lokius and bump the frequency you are not hearing properly. I bought one as an amusement and not only does it do that well, but you can also bump the bass, as they will produce a significant amount more than their stock configuration. Same concept as a plate amp for subs. Box subs don't go that low naturally, their bass is intentionally overdriven. Not talking about open baffle or horn subs, just boxed ones.

Let the naysayers descend like rabid wild animals while they mic measure their rooms and let a computer do the tampering for them, all feeling safe on the streets knowing there are no tone controls on their preamps.

Everything else that offers a significant performance increase is major surgery that requires removing the panty hose, starting with a million staples.

mozartfan would you put a cork in it?

ONCE again read before you post..

I offered a reasonable solution it see if the tweeter section is playing and if it is, let it break in.

Second a di pole will comb filter like no other it will cancel out front to rear because of the common pole.

PUT a pillow over the back of the tweeter section to stop the combing,. IF that works you know it’s combing. NOW position the speaker to reduce the combing as much as you can.. The -9db should go down. 

You can double check for combing by using only a single speaker, pull it to the center of the room..

TWO ears TWO eyes, ONE mouth... Order away, they are great speakers..

Regards

I reiterate: The tweeters in OP's speakers are either working properly or they are not.  And nobody here knows what other variables/factors are present in OP's situation. Not every problem nail needs a sledgehammer. (HUH? whatever does that mean?)

I suspect that @dekay  is on the right track.  

I will say it's (sorta) fun to read all the responses in this thread.  But I think it's time for me to unfollow. Best wishes and I hope OP gets it sorted out.

dekay3,770 posts07-29-2021 9:10pmSuspect that they are not propely hooked up/connected.

If damaged it's unusual that both speakers would have the same fault.

Not a clue as to what the "add-ons" mentioned by the OP are, but suggest hooking them up stock (nasty jumper plate and all).

I responded to another Maggie owner here with similar complaints and the HF problem was resolved with proper hookup (poor electrical contact was the culprit I think, but too lazy to look back through my posts).

DeKay


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I aint buying in.
No evidence his hookups are faulty.

 amp, or a modern parasound amp.  Needs an amp that can deliver fast settling amperage


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is what my tech was getting at. 
~~Requires high(er) current~~ than what the Defy7 can deliver = Not a  match made in heaven.
Is what he was trying to express.
He suggests , sure for string quartet, the Magnepan + Defy marraige would be excellent..
Well thats not what was the intention. The magnepan was for voicing full slam orchestra, in super high definition rock solid bass, rich detailed perfect voiced midrange, and the most glorious highs ever heard by the human ear..
Is what I had set my hopes on for the Defy7.

Magnepan is quite magical, we all know this based on countless testimonials. 
The caveat is a  amplification current that can deliver the goods.
Lets stay focused. 

As I  now recall was often mentioned when discussing panels wayyy back in my Topic, ShootOut at the OK Corral...
How could i foget,,,which is why i never reconsidered going anything **panel*

Suspect that they are not propely hooked up/connected.

If damaged it's unusual that both speakers would have the same fault.

Not a clue as to what the "add-ons" mentioned by the OP are, but suggest hooking them up stock (nasty jumper plate and all).

I responded to another Maggie owner here with similar complaints and the HF problem was resolved with proper hookup (poor electrical contact was the culprit I think, but too lazy to look back through my posts).

DeKay

I had 7 years with Maggie 3.7 s.  Preamp isn’t the issue. I had a nakamichi amp heavily biased to class a and it was a total mismatch.  Look for a a used Bryston or Mcormick  amp, or a modern parasound amp.  Needs an amp that can deliver fast settling amperage 

Any tech who says no to Maggie's unless you have a very low watt amp isn't worth listening to. Maggie's may need subs for lack of the very low end but they sure don't lack high end sizzle unless something is wrong with your tweeter. They come with the jumpers or resistors to tame the highs in a lively room. Your tech probably doesn't sell Maggie's so is pushing something else which I doubt will ever match a Maggie for the $$.

Either the tweeters on OP’s speakers are working properly or they’re not.

I say the following based on my decades of experience with Magnepan speakers. Amps, room, placement, source material, cables, fuses, the alignment of the stars, and so forth, and so on, have only had relatively minor, not dramatic effects on how the tweeters sound.

Whether I’ve used beefy tube mono amplification, a not-so-beefy tube integrated, a moderately-beefy hybrid integrated, or robust solid-state integrated, I find that I want to tame the tweeters a bit using resistors. The rest is refinement.

That is all.

Maggies like high power

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now we are getting somewhere, which may lead us to the resolution of the OP,,,wait a minute,
Nayls02 has a massive SS amplifier,, and still he can not get the Magnepans to perform as high fidelity speakers...
......

Sure glad my tech geek screamed at me..
***NO***
wow, would have been yet another speaker project disaster.
The Voxativ Project set me back $900.
Good Luck to Nayls02
I’m outta here

bypass the fuses.

Where along the vertical axis are you measuring?  1.7is and all QR Maggies are only good in the middle one third of their overall height. That’s why 3.7is are so much better… true ribbons do not have that limitation.  

I have the Maggie's 0.7's ( room won't support 1.7's) for money spent I'm very satisfied with the performance of my Maggie's 
As most know they need watts/current
I tried using my VAC KT88 tube 100 watt amp that has 8,4,2 taps  l also felt l was missing something also on the top end
l decided to try my SS amp that puts out 500watts@8ohm 650@4ohms and 1,200 watts@1ohm +65 amps for 500 milliseconds  I did the fuse, jumper upgrade and Magna Risers speaker stands
All l can is, that it totally transformed my .7's
I position my Maggie's 48" into the room, 110" apart, slight toe in and l have approximately 60" to the side walls l sit 120" from the speakers 
All l can say is now they have excellent inner detail dynamics and nice extended highs

+1@ oldhvymec
That makes the most sense!

As most things tech, usually the fixes are simple. When they aren’t simple then it’s a big problem. Just put in the stock jumper and hook up your high watt ss system. Angle the panels so the tweeters are pointed at your listening position. Assuming your fuses are ok, what do you hear? Highs should not be an issue on Maggies. How many watts output are your monoblocks? Maggies like high power. I am using a pair of Bryston 28B3 monoblocks for instance. Schiit Vidars are not enough. I used to run a pair of Vidars and one went into thermal protection.