My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

Jay you have that right lol

viber6

He completely renovated his garage to make a great listening room, created dedicated AC power lines and outlets.

Did he? What’s with that 208VAC or 240VAC line for the a/c or arc welder that he’s also using for his 120VAC outlets?

Even if he has AC problems, that’s the purpose of the Stromtank to clean it up.

Right. But from what I gather, the Stromtank he can afford isn’t sufficient to power an amplifier. So he is still stuck with his AC problems.

Meanwhile, Jay is in denial and acts as though he's never heard any of this before.

My guess is that Jay owns his home.  He completely renovated his garage to make a great listening room, created dedicated AC power lines and outlets.  I don't think a landlord would permit a renter to do all this.

Even if he has AC problems, that's the purpose of the Stromtank to clean it up.  Still, an inverter generates its own particular distortions, which is why ricevs' friend Oeno (great link to his comments on WBF, accessible on p 4 of the battery thread, accessible from p 406 of this thread near the top) uses the Puritan 156 filter after his inverter to filter out the inverter distortions.

Jay, how about trying your Puritan after the Stromtank?

jays_audio_lab

I don’t know where this narrative is coming from about me having electrical issues ... So as far as i am concerned folks, most of us have absolutely no business in this hobby due to our terrible electrical system ...

Perhaps you are suffering short term memory loss. Earlier in this thread, another user analyzed your YT video and posted graphs showing it had spurious noises as well as what appeared to be AC harmonics. You were displeased (I’m being kind) and the details you then revealed about your AC power (which you insist even a six year old could have installed) only raised more questions, such as whether you have a 208VAC or 240VAC line that you are using to feed your 120VAC lines. (I know that sounds crazy, but that’s the information that was exchanged. ) A whole bunch of posts were deleted, including yours that contained threats, and Tammy popped into the thread with a gentle warning.

Did that refresh your memory?

It’s not difficult to see what’s happening here. You became a dealer for the Stromtank battery "solution" because you have AC problems. What doesn’t make sense is that you now refuse to acknowledge your journey’s path. Most odd, because much of the history is right in this thread.

As others have noted, it’s possible that you’re in a rental, so there may be little or nothing you can do about your AC issues. But pretending they don’t exist won’t make them go away, and you’ll have to deal them until you have Stromtanks sufficient to power your system.

Jay, installing proper dedicated AC lines isn’t rocket science but it isn’t for six year olds, either. If it’s an option for you, I encourage you to have an expert examine your AC power. He’ll tell you, among other things, why your 30A 120VAC lines are problematic, and he’ll have suggestions that could make a big difference in your system’s sound. The cost will be much less than even one of the small Stromtanks.

If that's the case, then I retract my comment and apologize.

Clearthink,

We agree that there are two separate issues--AC power quality, and EQ.  Both are important, but you emphasize AC and I emphasize EQ.  It is highly likely that Jay's AC quality is better than mine, due to his dedicated lines and better outlets AND Stromtank.  It is also likely that my system would improve with a good battery/inverter, but even with my unknown AC quality from my excellent Shunyata Denali conditioner, the effects of EQ are life-changing.  I cannot listen to any system, mine or others' without EQ.  BTW, another common example of EQ is the loading of the MC cartridge.  I have always preferred max loading at 47K ohms.  Although some criticize the HF peaks of MC cartridges which are fully revealed at 47K, I hate the "correct" loading at a few hundred ohms which tames the HF peak but it also rolls off the upper midrange and HF, making for a relatively lifeless sound.

Most if not all recordings presented here are badly processed productions with lots of EQ and many unnatural sound effects.  It makes no sense for listeners to this stuff to criticize EQ while preaching "purity" without EQ.

+1 for @ron17

And where is this arc welder coming from?

Jay didn't you say your ac was on a completely different box and/or circuit?

Could we go back to talking about the Apex and 3060? I have to know which one to buy when I hit the lotto. Hope its the Boulder they are a lot closer to me.

Finally someone understood what i meant.... Thanks @ron17 

"So as far as i am concerned folks, most of us have absolutely no business in this hobby due to our terrible electrical system."

I have a feeling Jay was being sarcastic due to the constant prodding by one poster about his so-called poor electrical system.

Pot meet kettle.

Not disagreeing but all have been rude from time to time.

Some have been pretty petty also. 

"So as far as i am concerned folks, most of us have absolutely no business in this hobby due to our terrible electrical system."

@jays_audio_lab 

I have no problem with you Jay, and I know that you have a lot of followers but considering that you were a rank beginner not too long ago, I think that was a pretty rude comment for you to make. 

I think some want us to think Jay has worse power than most.  Not sure why. It’s coming from the same source tho. No matter what kind of power you have,  dedicated lines can help. Also very likely that having a conditioner like the Stromtank will also improve most systems. When you are  at this level everything is revealed so now the improvements will be more easily recognized. When you have perfected a system to this point the next logical area to improve is the real source which is clean power. So now that’s taken care of where to look next?  It’s definitely a system worthy of the “Lab” name. You can really compare things with this system. Good job building a true reviewer tool. 

That might be the most judgmental statement you’ve made here.  

I don’t know where this narrative is coming from about me having electrical issues... That said, if i have electrical issues after having 5 dedicated outlets installed then i can say with certainty that over 90% of the folks who read this thread have miserable power because most don’t have a stromtank and some don’t even have dedicated outlets....they are slinging 5 dollar power strips, panamax power surge protector or a monster unit and some are even plugging in their system in the same outlet where they plug in their TV...

So as far as i am concerned folks, most of us have absolutely no business in this hobby due to our terrible electrical system. 

 viber6"Innovation is dependent on being open minded and flexible, ready to experiment."

Yes and yet you see in this very thread what happens when someone suggests, proposes, or raises a new idea or one that has not previously been properly evaluated in the context of the discussion that the response is sometimes one of vile profanity, ugly personal attacks, threats  of a crude and even sexual nature - all of these things have happened in this thread and all I am trying to so is have discussion about the things that are appropriate to what is being undertaken by Jay.

If an EQ solves the problems with your Music Reproduction system that that settles the matter for many and if they are upset, disturbed, or bothered by the use of EQ of course they can avoid it but in Jay's case he is going to have to tackle electrical AC power system issues one way or the other sooner either by getting bigger batteries or fixing the AC itself but until then EQ might be of some help to him.

Clearthink,

Agree with your last two posts.  Innovation is dependent on being open minded and flexible, ready to experiment.  Nobody is TOTALLY open minded and willing to try new things.  I have my own limitations, and I can't try everything under the sun.  EQ is perhaps the most important of the basics, so even if I agree that AC quality is a major issue, it is not as big a factor as doing EQ.  Very rarely, my power quality is so bad that the music sounds like it has marshmallows in its mouth, and my EQ won't correct that problem, so I give up for that day, and wait until the next day.  It's like a rainy day when you can't go swimming, so you just wait until the weather is decent.  Most of the time, my AC power is OK, so EQ is essential for fully appreciating my system.

No audio system which is claimed to be neutral, actually is.  How can mechanical drivers in a box have the same tonal balance as a natural instrument of brass, wood or strings or the human voice?  IMPOSSIBLE.  The best we can do is to use our ears to EQ the system to produce a semblance of reality, or whatever is pleasing.  It is not perfect, but it is the best single intervention that produces close to the desired result.

About phono EQ--deluxe phono stages offer several EQ curves such as RIAA, AES/EBU, etc.  The actual difference is these curves is small compared to what an EQ like my Rane can do.  I have only the RIAA curve in my phono stage, but I still vary my EQ to suit the recordings I listen to.  

My background was in the sciences before I went into business so it is a mystery and puzzle to me that some people deliberately, intentionally, and willfully avoid knowledge, experience, and information that has the potential to enhance and improve their lives I have seen this many times. When any of my hiring managers is interviewing new hires for roles such as engineer we probe to discover and learnt the person's alignment toward exploration and those who are already decided, fixed, and rigid in their thinking and analysis are rejected. Of course the hiring process is not perfect and some of those people get hired any way but I can tell you they do not last long in a culture of innovations such as my companies they will usually quit with in 90 days or so.

viber6"Understand that your system, no matter what it is, employs some form of EQ"

This is absolutely valid, accurate, and true it does not matter as a practical issue how much Jay may want to avoid EQ and deny, reject, and/or ignore its potential benefits in his system because he already has EQ and it is not only in his speaker system crossover network but in his R.I.A.A.stage with in his phono preamplifier and he has acknowledged, recognized, and accepted that he is using cables to apply equalization which is an unreliable method and not recognized as best practice for correcting his issues which we must remember is complicated by AC power delivery problems that have driven him to advocate, promote, and sell expensive battery "solution" for those problems which have also been revealed in a graph posted previously in this thread.

I think the fundamental, underlying, operative problem here is that because he is in a rental Jay can not do much about the power problems which have been guessed to include an arc welder or similar device, tool, or equipment on his "dedicated" circuit.

I do not understand some of the loud objections to considering, evaluating, and exploring the potential for EQ to resolve other problems that can not otherwise be corrected because it is one way to "fix" the high frequency distortions intruding upon the signal and originating somewhere on the AC lines.

zprr,

Don't you acknowledge the post by bulldogger on the benefits he has obtained from EQ?  Understand that your system, no matter what it is, employs some form of EQ.  Many people give up on their 400 lb speakers in favor of an updated version, and go through the hassle of returning their heavy speakers and getting the new version.  They don't realize that a big part of the new version is merely a different EQ setting in the crossover network.  It isn't necessarily better, and it merely represents the designer's choice of the moment.  With EQ you make your own choices with much more flexibility, without braking your back and bank account.  Be open minded to the possibilities.

@zprr 

Thank you. I plan to do the tour this Friday and hopefully the first video releases on Saturday. Then the interview with Mr. Wolf will come out towards the middle of next week. Lots of content will be released starting this weekend so make sure you have your notifications turned on 🙂

oh god... not eq. there are dozens and DOZENS of pages already on this thread dominated by a tiny number of contributors - about which, as Jay just stated, he is not interested, again, aside from cables and naturally components.

enjoy your visit to the west coast wc!! perfect weather here in the bay area this weekend. just enough fog

watched a long 90 min utube video of an audio publication visiting CH Precision. Alot of good info but it was one long reel without any headers, separation, outline etc. brutal

I really enjoy how Jay keeps things tight and short on specific topics. I can imagine a number of videos out of this Magico tour. so cool. looking forward to any footage however it is delivered and glad Magico is recognizing your hard work.

The most obvious example of EQ is the different tonal balance of a system in different rooms.  A large speaker in a small room is bass heavy compared to in a larger room.  Room treatments and DSP are worthwhile, but they are mostly used for bass, whereas a simple electronic EQ can be used to modify numerous frequencies from bass to HF, producing a much broader array of effects.  Of course, it gets very complex, and you have to be judicious and carefully listen for yourself to get the best results, rather than blindly trusting objective algorithms which often produce unsatisfactory subjective results.

Bulldogger,

Exactly!  Perhaps your Krell XD amp has a beautiful midrange, but you want to extend the HF to more accurately convey the complete natural tonal balance of an instrument.  The 5th row in the concert hall has a beautiful midrange, but rolled off HF compared to the 1st row.  You use the EQ to get the tonal balance you desire, judiciously without going over the top (pun intended).  On duller recordings, I boost HF more than for more brilliant recordings.  My Rane ME 60 original version has 30 bands with center freq of 1/3 octave from the adjacent band.  It is on eBay for $200 or less.

More generally, most people don't realize that their systems are EQ'ed in various ways, especially the "purists" who say they don't want EQ.  Even Jay just admitted that much of the differences in cables can be explained by their different freq emphases.  Or it may be that different capacitor/inductor values in cables have an effect on the freq balance.  Actually, the biggest EQ effect comes from the speaker designer.  The upper end Wilson speakers have amplitude adjustments for each driver, functioning as a parametric EQ.  I don't know whether Magico has such adjustments.  I like the S7 MUCH MORE than the M3 and M6 that Jay demonstrated.  Are the drivers and cabinet design better in the S series than the M series?  No.  But the crossover networks are different, and in the S7 it is apparent that the tweeter is more dominant than it is in the M3 and M6.  So the S7 is in effect an EQ'ed version of M6, aiming for a brighter tonal balance.  You can take a conventional electronic EQ, either digital or analog, and get the S7 to sound more like the M6, and vice versa.  The differences between various EQ settings are MUCH larger than the differences between preamps, power amps.  However, an EQ is not a complete panacea, and I could never EQ a grossly inferior power amp to make it sound preferable to my reference amp.

Whatever distortion is added by an additional electronic stage such as the EQ, is vastly outweighed by the opportunity to judiciously change the tonal balance to your liking.

@clearthink 

You mentioned that many folks have heard distortion and reasoned that it comes from the AC power foundation.  Who, besides you, have posted about that?   Maybe one other person?

Dave

@bulldogger ROON also has the more powerful Convolution engine to do DSP. The well known, in digital audio circles, Mitch Barnett did my room and speakers remotely from Canada.

https://accuratesound.ca

Though I no longer user the filter after adding an additional acoustic panel and some furniture rearrangement. The filter was great when I needed to use it.

I have zero desire to use an EQ. I don't criticize those who do use EQ, but in my systems there will never be an EQ (personal preference - nothing else )

Jay it would be thoughtful, considerate, and prudent of you to consider and contemplate the use of EQ in your system and I make that comment even though like many of us I would not have it in my system. The reason I say that is because of the distortion that has been demonstrated, shown, and revealed to be in your system which many have reasoned comes from your AC power foundation and the problems that come with it. These distortions it can be almost certain vary with conditions and whether other things on on your lines such as the air conditioner or welder so an EQ would let you correct that quickly, easily, and reliably where as switching power cords involves shutting down the system and restarting which is not always even practical so @bulldogger made a good suggestion that I hope you will not dismiss, ignore, or reject.

Of course the ideal, preferred, and best solution would be to identify, isolate, nad correct your existing AC problems at the source but that seems to be not possible for you maybe you are in a rental and if that's the case I can see why you use battery Stromtank but I don't think you can put amplifiers on that.

@rsf507 

Thanks for stating the obvious....

@bulldogger 

You can private message @viber6  about EQ. I don't use EQ per say although cables are almost acting like an EQ. 

I am curious if Parametric EQ or room correction has been discussed in this thread? I have Krell XD amps. I don’t like the top end, rolled off so I EQed the top end. At first things were a little too dazzling and I had to bump it down a bit 😀. My old school audio buddies always looked for the right cable to tone things. I"ve found with PEQ or room correction, PEQ if you don’t like room correction, I am able to get the sound closer to what I want. Roon has a very easy to use 5 band EQ.

Does the Apex have no natural predators as its name suggests? Is the Boulder 3060 worth the extra $43,000 dollars ?

Those questions will be answered soon 

Sorry but this question can ONLY be answered in "your" system. In another system the opposite may be true.

Where is the gryphon in that picture,  not your place right?

Gryphon APEX is set to make an appearance on my channel. Two of the best stereo amplifiers manufactured today will face each other ONLY on my channel. You can’t get this anywhere else folks !

Please subscribe and turn on your notifications so you don’t miss when this showdown of the best stereo amp built in America goes against Denmark’s finest stereo amplifier.

Does the Apex have no natural predators as its name suggests? Is the Boulder 3060 worth the extra $43,000 dollars ?

Those questions will be answered soon !

On the 1st video between Shunyata and Transparent, there were big differences.  I also preferred Transparent for its clarity.  On the 2nd video, it seems that the differences were smaller, and I still preferred Transparent but it wasn't as obvious.  Perhaps on the 2nd video, the Shunyata benefitted from the 3 day continuous break-in, and the Transparent didn't have the same break-in.  

I was disappointed with the Shunyata Sigma flagship power cord several years ago, for its laid back sound compared to the entry Shunyata Venom HC.  Except for the excellent clarity of the Shunyata Denali conditioner, I believe Shunyata has a house sound of being laid back.  Combining my experience with Jay's, most likely Shunyata cables behave similarly with most ancillary components.

Revealing items like the Transparent Opus have accurate focused soundstages, but not bloated soundstages.  These bloated soundstages are from relatively euphonic items.  

I would like to hear A/B's between Transparent and Nordost.  My cheap Nordost Vishnu power cord is most revealing.

Find out today !!!

I liked presentation #2 in the recent power cord comparison.  I felt #2 had fuller midrange, more chesty singing, more involved feeling.  I think often a sound that seems brighter is actually missing the midrange.  Would love to throw a Kubala - Sosna Realization cable in the comparison.  I have compared K-S to Audience Front Row and AU24SX.  Thanks Jay,  Ken

The winner of the Powercord shootout will go up against this !

Thank you. The most epic comparison ever will only take place here. I'm excited to share with you what perhaps won't ever be done anywhere else. 

epic shootout perhaps… congrats wc

no doubt gryphon and boulder confident

curious if/how they would describe their ultimate sonic goals similarly/differently at that level of components. of course would love to know their favorite server/speaker/cabling combos but no luck getting that intel for obvious reasons. that’s in part why i tune in here.  jay’s evaluations are incredibly valuable in that way

No the gryphon gear is not mine. That belongs to a gryphon dealer. 

@jays_audio_lab  thanks for the update and wonderful news!

will that mean goodbye to the boulder equipment.lol 

Official announcement for you guys here:

Gryphon Audio will provide me with not only the APEX stereo amplifier, but also the matching Gryphon Commander Preamp!

I’m super excited for this one!! I can’t wait until it’s all here!

jays_audio_lab

... buy thick wire and 20a breaker, Buy aftermarket outlet of choice, Find a dude on Angie’s list that does electrical work ... I believe my 6 year old can understand how to do the job too.

I’m sure you do believe that your six year old could install your dedicated lines. And that’s exactly how you’ve ended up with the AC problems that you have, including that funky 30A 220VAC line that your stereo shares with an arc welder or dryer or whatever. Is that hardwired, or cord-and-plug?

... make sure the outlets are in phase so there is no bass cancellation issues ...

Your six year old is mistaken about the bass cancellation thing. But hey - he’s only six!

It’s increasingly easy to see now how your AC issues led you to experiment with batteries as a "solution." They're really more of a workaround than a solution.

I’m no electrician... I leave that to the pros. I pull out my wallet and pay the pros to do the work that the manufacturers recommend.

It’s simple: pay a dude to run wires from your circuit breaker directly into your room. This isn’t rocket science. Grab one stupid end of a thick wire and plug it into the breaker panel and run the stupid ass wire through the wall and make it come out through a hole in the wall and then grab a decent outlet and connect the wire into the outlet. Lastly, make sure the outlets are in phase so there is no bass cancellation issues.

Let’s not make this job complicated folks:

• Go to home Depot and buy thick wire and 20a breaker
• Buy aftermarket outlet of choice
• Find a dude on Angie’s list that does electrical work
• Have the dude run the wire you bought at home Depot from your breaker all the way to your desired location
• Pay the dude the money agreed upon for the job
• Plug in your electronics into the new outlet
• Grab a drink and chill.

Step by step how to do dedicated lines for your system. I believe my 6 year old can understand how to do the job too.

Now I’m anxiously waiting for the bashing to commence by the electrical gurus that lurk on here.

Oh yea - stromtank still embarrasses any dumb dedicated lines. Just wait until i drop the video of a guy who i sold a STROMTANK to and how his system has transformed even more than the $15,000 dollars he paid to some electrical gurus who supposedly also did Michael Fremers electrical work.  Just wait and see...

The proof is in the pudding so just wait and see...

jays_audio_lab

I have 5 dedicated outlets with 10 gauge wire and aftermarket outlets. 20a, 20a, 30a, 30a, 30a-220v.

Do you have 30A devices (receptacles) on those 30A lines? If so, when you test power cords, do you change the connectors to 30A plugs?

If you have 20A receptacles on the 30A lines, in many places you’d have a code violation and it’s a potential safety hazard. So that’s problematic.

That 30A 220V line is a real puzzle. Do you actually mean it’s 30A 240VAC? Is that a hardwired connection? If that’s not for an arc welder, dryer, or A/C, what’s it for?

As for some of the spurious noise that was detected in your videos (graphs were posted earlier in the thread) - have you hunted down the source? There were some speculations here that they originated in your AC lines.

Ricevs,

True about the PS Audio Powerplant, thanks.  However, once it generates the DC, it functions like an inverter.  The real issue here is whether the unique types of distortions from an inverter are qualitatively greater than those from good conditioners.  Stromtank distortions are rated below 2%, but PS Audio Powerplants reduce AC THD to about 0.1% distortion.  Yet Jay found the Stromtanks sound much better than PSA.  The unique distortions from the inverters are not characterized.  One more nail in the coffin for the measurements-only school of fantasy doctrinaire claims.  Listening is required to properly answer the question posed by cleeds, whether battery/inverters sound purer than conditioners and dedicated lines.

The Giandel 5000 puts out 5000 watt-hr continuous, 10,000 peak, when used with two Amperetime 200 amp-hr batteries for a total cost of $2800.  The competition is the S-tank 5000 for about $50K or so, for handling a complete system with power amps as well as front end.