My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
I don’t understand WHY manufacturers make ugly components. Don’t they understand that pretty stuff appeals to most men? What man likes an ugly, ancient looking woman? It’s like they don’t have any common sense. Ive said this to several of them too. Stop making hideous stuff!! It’s already hard to sell some of this stuff so making it ugly makes it that much more difficult. The one thing I’ll say once again is that the Wilson audio Sasha grabbed the most attention in my home and then Martin Logan 15a. Lastly, this is WHY McIntosh and b&w sell so well too. People love their look and so aesthetics is huge especially here in South Florida. Who the hell wants to drop 2 million dollars for a property on the 50th floor overlooking at the ocean in south beach and walk in and find some ugly rogue audio equipment?
WC, As grey9hound, thezaks say, don't assume that because something is cheap that it is no good for you. Most people here who enthusiastically make recommendations to you are to be considered your friends who mean well, unlike shady dealers who are out to take your money for crappy, overpriced hyped up mediocrity. As RIAA says, we don't really know the truth about anything unless it is auditioned, especially in our home reference system. When I discovered that the cheap Rane ME 60 as a line stage (not even using the EQ capability) was more transparent than the expensive Spectral DMC 10 gamma, I was delighted to discover something that is cheap and excellent, and also delighted to gloat that the emperor really has no clothes, or that the flashy girl with thick makeup and tight jeans really is ugly without makeup with a dumpy body in more modest clothes. As a twist, I LIKE the idea that a (probably) fine sounding speaker like the Tekton DI may be considered ugly. In a way, the owner of the Tekton can make a statement to his guests, saying that "it's the sound, stupid--LISTEN TO IT." When they do listen, the weird look and the concept of such a design that yields fine sound, can turn a physically weird object into a thing of inner beauty.
WC, I understand your point about good looking components, but that adds a lot to the price, so you get poorer sound for the dollar. That Viola amp I criticized was a $23,000 gorgeous jewel made of a sculptured solid block of silvery metal. The manufacturer was looking to fool the rich guy who cares mainly about looks. (But the Viola or Mac amps still are ugly compared to a work of real visual art like a great painting, antique furniture or sculpture.) The sound wasn't bad--it was good enough to fool the rich guy who cares more about his image than listening seriously and critically to music and sound. Then we have the fashionable socialite at the opera who sits in the elegant Grand Tier to be noticed and photographed. Never mind that the sound there is rolled off and dull compared to the first row. She doesn't care what it sounds like, as long as SHE can be SEEN.
Living in central Florida, I still have not heard the Tektons, and I would like to, after all that I have read. As far as their looks, Mr. Alexander has a background in pro loudspeaker design, and we all know what they look like. He is keeping the cost down by designing this way, but does make available any paint finish and color you would like, for an additional cost. My Lascalas are big boxes, and I love how they look ( love how they present music, too ). The use of pro drivers gives them efficiency, dynamics, and high power handling ability. I have never posted on the Tekton threads, but I wanted to point that out. As far as EQ, I modified my Rane, and although it is a bit cleaner than it was, it still does not come close to my Luminous unit, so back in the closet it goes, or, maybe I will sell it. A final thought. In terms of system price, my current system is less expensive than most I have owned in the past, and I am enjoying my current system more than any other. A step backward ? In price, maybe. In musical satisfaction, quite the opposite. Enjoy ! MrD.
Valid points guys. Yup, some lower price gear sometimes sounds better than pricier gear. Normally not, but it happens for sure. Always best to listen and compare. I happen to have experienced it lately when comparing my 8k dedicated dac with the one included in my new 4k preamp....and well the latter sounds better. I was astonished, and kind of insulted I had put this much money on a dead horse... big hit will be taken in trying to resale that freaking dac.
About ugly speakers, well I agree Wilson and Tekton are far from looking good. And if I decide on day to put 30k on a pair of Wilson, their sound better make my jaw drop to the floor for them to enter my living room.
WCSS i wish you could get your hands on a pair of Alysvox ribbon speakers. The entry level one. I am a ribbon guy now. Magnepan. I was use to have cone then electrostatic. I like listening late at night having someone serenade to me and hear as much detail as possible. Only cone speakers I like are Wilsons. Or another choice would be the newer Avalons. I use to know a guy way back when who raved about his system with Wadia 861 front end, Cat pre and power with Edielons. Using all Wireworld gold cables
And how about some Lamm 1.2 mono blocks! I once corresponded with a fellow who said the Lamm tubed ML 2.1 were true sota at the time if coupled to the right horn speaker.
mrdecibel, Interesting comments about pro drivers. In general, pro gear offer better sound value per dollar than audiophile gear, because with pro, only the sound matters. I never claimed that the Rane as a line stage is SOTA. The real value of it is the very flexible EQ capability which is all-important. I was about to dump my new Mytek Brooklyn amp because the highs are not as extended as my Bryston, but a little tweak of the Rane made me happy with the highs and everything else on the Mytek which makes it preferable to my Bryston in nearly all ways. So I rejoice and keep the Mytek. What value for $2000! There is no guarantee that the much more costly Merrill Elements will beat the Mytek sufficiently to justify the cost, or even whether the Elements are ANY better at all. I won't know until I listen to a broken in Element. All of this is made possible by the Rane. Although it may not be as transparent as the Luminous, it is still very good, and the EQ function makes it a game changer and overrides everything else. Please experiment with the EQ in your Rane. There is the risk that baritones will sound more like tenors, etc., but you will be discerning enough to do it intelligently. Don't alter the midrange, but try tweaking from 8000 to 20,000 Hz. By boosting this range, you can turn a muddy distant sounding recording into a more upfront one, tremendously increasing the clarity without getting a gross disco sound.
Did you personally do the modification on the Rane, or what modifier did it for you?
techno_dude, Thanks for relating your story about the expensive mediocre DAC. I have heard the Wilson Sasha, Sabrina and can say they are mediocre for the money, trounced by the CLX at similar prices for clarity, etc. Here we have a SOTA electrostatic at an affordable price, and then a mediocre Wilson which becomes an oversupplied drug on the market. Yes, the Alexia 2 may be superior to the other Wilson's, but it won't compete with any SoundLab or Martin Logan electrostatic in important criteria. At nearly $60,000, I wouldn't count on it being superior to the Tekton DI for $3000. The Magico S5 at $40K probably offers far superior clarity to the Alexia 2, so represents better value. If the Magico has better clarity than the Tekton DI, at least both are good choices at their price points. All this is my speculation of course, since I have not heard the Alexia 2, Magico S5 or the Tekton DI, but let the owners speak.
This constant drumming of "expensive mediocre components" and unscrupulous dealers is getting old. There are great dealers across the country and great components at every price point! I say that, because I choose to attend shows, audition components in my system, listen in dealer's showrooms, and listen at my friend's house. Personal opinion regarding amps is differences are greater when driving difficult speakers. So sure, most amps sound great on relatively easy loads.
kw6, Thanks for mentioning the Alsyvox ribbon speakers. I believe that the smallest model, the Tintoretto, is the best for clarity, focus and suitability for most rooms. The only advantage of the larger models is a little deeper bass extension, but the smallest one still is respectable at 25 Hz. It is still large enough to please those who like big sound fields. The efficiency is high at 93 dB, so dynamics should please most people. In the case of planers, smaller is usually better, although the Tintoretto is still pretty large. Many years ago, I compared the small Stax F81 to the F83, which was merely two stacked 81's. Of course, the F83 had more output, but it was far inferior to the F81 in clarity. Highs were rolled off, and the tonal balance was bass heavy by comparison. At that point I learned a valuable lesson that large panels exhibit time smear in midrange and higher frequencies because of multipath and time delay effects and therefore suffer in clarity. Smaller is better. If you get these ribbons, or just keep listening to your Magnepans, I strongly advise toe-in to get the midpoint of the sub-panels aimed at your nose. The narrowest HF ribbons have excellent dispersion, so it is most important that the body of the speaker containing the wide midrange panel is aimed at your nose. The wider the driver, the more directivity it has, which you can use to your advantage by aiming for your nose. This will make a BIG difference in clarity.
skootb, I use a single Mytek Brooklyn amp in stereo. If I am happy driving my inefficient 75 dB electrostatic speakers with it, getting peaks of almost 100 dB, nobody with much more efficient speakers should be unhappy, assuming they are listening at sensible levels that avoid hearing damage. If the music is very loud on peaks, the amp shuts down for only a few seconds and then is fine after the peaks. No big deal. Using 2 of them would increase the cost to $4000, which may still be a good value, but I don't want to spend a lot of money now, until I evaluate the Merrill Elements. I can afford anything, but it better be a great value, or else I say, forget about it.
viber 6 and kw6, thanks for mentioning the AlsyVox magnetic planars. viber6, please be careful with your use of the word "ribbon", the AlsyVox speakers do not use ribbon drivers, but utilize a planar-magnetic method like Magnepan except they are push-pull employing neodymium magnets on both sides of the diaphragm for fast response and high efficiency. Their room at RMAF was one of the best at any price, percussion was particularly real sounding, and they made a big band sound believable right in the room, stellar achievement! I'm sorry WCSS didn't get to Denver to hear the AlsyVox, maybe he'll come up to Maryland for the Capital Audiofest, many wonderful speakers to hear including a similar planar magnetic at 1/8th the cost of AlsyVox, the GT Audio Works Reference 3 full range planar, just for reference to what he has at home.
viber6, I do have a bit of studio and live sound experience ( way back before digital ), which is why my comments about pro audio. In fact, of some of the amplifiers I have held onto, I have a few pro Yamahas, which I will have forever. EQ : I do feel the Rane is as good as many line stages as I have heard, it is just that, I feel I do not need to boost or cut anything, as I am so much enjoying my system, and my recordings, the way things are. I am really enjoying the elimination of the gain stage. Yes, I did the mods myself. The circuit board, transformer, and complete chassis is now resonant free, and the eq has put on some pounds. Added some " special " feet " ( needed 5 of them ), and it might be the best sounding eq I have ever heard, and this is still with those mediocre input level controls. I am sure with a great pair of Alps in there, it could make all the difference. But I am still not interested, simply because of my satisfaction of enjoyment. I have been involved in vibration and resonance control most of my life. In fact, if you took the guts of an Adcom GFA 535 II, and put it in the chassis of a Krell KSA 50 ( of which I both own ), the Adcom amp, in it's new home, would blow you away, in a side by side comparison with a stock Adcom. Anyway, this is for another thread, and not WC's thread. Enjoy ! Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel, Thanks for your info. You may be satisfied with your system, and I trust your findings that the Luminous passive conduit is more transparent than the Rane without EQ, and it probably beats any megabuck line stage for clarity, etc. The Luminous or Music First units are "pound the table" recommendations for anyone here to consider. Just as they ought to be open-minded about this, I urge you to do the same for the Rane for its EQ feature. Believe me, a subtle adjustment of EQ yields bigger differences than two competing SOTA amp contenders, and this effect overwhelms the loss of transparency from going from the Luminous to the Rane as a line stage only. I really hate many European concert halls for their over-reverberance, in real life and on recordings, such as the Concertgebouw. I can take these muddy and distant sounding recordings and make them sound much more like the tightly clear Boston Symphony Hall in the first few rows, using the EQ tastefully. There is no other way to do this. If you still don't find this useful, I would be happy to buy your Rane. Is it the earlier one or the later one with the choice of 2 different curves (6 or 12 dB, etc.)?
klh007, Yes, you are correct about the Alsyvox being planar magnetics, not ribbons, except maybe the ribbon tweeters, similar to Maggies. My friend in LI has the GT Audio speakers for the low teens without subwoofers. For almost all music, the subwoofers aren't needed, since the main speakers have great power down to 40 Hz. If the Alsyvox costs $100K, that is a real ripoff. The finest full range ribbon speakers I have heard are from Wisdom Audio at a MUCH lower price for still large models. The GT Audios sound great, especially when toed in the way I described. But electrostatics are still superior in resolution to any planar magnetic or ribbon, just as capacitor microphones are superior to ribbon mics. The electrostatic is just a huge capacitor. The ML is still best sounding speaker for resolution, etc., and is relatively modestly priced.
mikepaul, No I don't have the ML CLX. I have not found anything to beat my 1980 Audiostatic 240. I only use a single panel for each channel, whose radiating area is 5.5 X 50 inches. I use a yardstick and aim each side at my nose. The support and other unused panel serve as a baffle so I can get more bass, but most people would find the bass deficient. The flat panel is a better concept than the curved one of ML, though the CLX has the narrowest panel for the mid and HF. My beloved old Audiostatic has probably lost some highs, but it still has better highs and midrange than any other commercial speaker out there. I enhance the highs with the fantastic Enigmacoustics super tweeter, but unfortunately that company appears to have folded. Together, the Audiostatic/Enigma combination is unmatched for clarity, although I admit that I have learned to hold my head in position to obtain ecstasy. It is a one listener ultimate experience. The CLX comes in second place, so it is the best commercially available speaker. Everything else is hopelessly veiled. The original Quad 57 stat has great midrange, probably the best ever designed, but lots of other limitations. The newer Quads are hopelessly veiled in comparison.
The latest Audiostatic design from Dutchman Ben Peters, is seen on his website for 3000 euros. I listened to the other models from the 1990's, which were not as good as my 240. I told him a few years ago that I am still very happy with my 240. But he didn't return my emails asking about his newest model. He is now old, so I am not sure if it really exists. Still, I probably will take a flyer and just order it. Not much financial risk. This man is my audio hero. I even considered traveling to him in Holland.
viber6, Even the 5mm wide tweeter in the Alsyvox is a push-pull planar magnetic, unlike the true ribbon tweeters in the better Maggies and the GT Audio Works designs. The Botticelli Alsyvox at RMAF would sell for $87K if a distributor can be found. You may not be aware of another stellar electrostatic design from Conifer, CO, Roger Sanders' Model 10 hybrid shown at RMAF. Honed over 3 decades of improvements his stats are as or more transparent than ML and have beat ML at the woofer integration equation, play with more dynamic excitement, play very loud, but exhibit the narrow sweet spot flat planars come with. The Sanders are $17K/pr but that includes a Magtech amp for the stats @900 WPC, a 10" woofer in a transmission line loading, and DSP room correction. You need to supply an amp for the woofers and you're done. Every year his room sounds like a breath of fresh air, startlingly transparent, big dynamic swings, intimate vocals, seamless woofer integration coupled with crushing deep bass when called for, a real value.
klh007, Thanks for your clarification on the Alsyvox. So the complete planar magnetic design is then inferior to the top Maggies and the GT Audio. What a ripoff. My friend in LI who has the GT, posted under his ID, faxer, I recall, but if I am wrong, his business is Sound Insight, in Massapequa, NY. It is better than any Maggie, especially when toed in. It is tall and skinny, similar to the Wisdom Audio ribbon speakers. The GT and Wisdom are of comparable quality in sound, and both illustrate the superiority of design that I advocate.
I have heard Roger Sanders hybrid stats. At shows they sounded lousy with veiling, rolled off highs, etc. Could have been the small dead room or the DSP not set up properly. I made a trip from NYC to Maryland to hear the top model in a private home. They sounded much better than at the shows, but still not quite as good as the ML CLX, and nowhere as good as my Audiostatic 240. You have to understand my perspective with the unique Audiostatic, which makes my comments about nearly all speakers at variance with the enthusiasm others have for whatever speakers are available today. But everyone should read Sanders' white paper (website Sanders Sound Systems) on why curved panels are not optimal. Originally, he designed curved panels but realized his mistake and switched to flat panels. To get the total purest sound, you just have to accept the need to sit in the sweet spot with the panels toed in to your nose, ears. I agree with his writings, and go further with my analysis of the multipath and dispersion effects that create HF smearing. I have not heard the smaller narrower model of Sanders, but I predict it will have more precision although less output than the larger wider model, for the reasons I have discussed.
Actually, THE best commercially available stats are from King Sound, in Hong Kong. But distribution and availability have been lousy. They are flat panels, with a wide panel for freq below 1200 Hz, and a 3 inch narrow panel for freq above that. The narrower the panel, the more dispersion, without any HF rolloff. I have heard the King and Prince models and can say that 2-3 people can enjoy the total sound. The original King model was great, better than the CLX, but not as good as my Audiostatic. There is a guy from Norwalk, Conn on USAudioMart selling these for less than $3000, a steal if you can accept the risk of no company backup. The next best thing is the KS 17 that maplegrovemusic mentioned. The only problem with the design is that it is very tall, so the height creates some vertical time smear from multipath effects. The narrow width is a plus, however. Recall that I found the tall Stat F83 (2 stacked F81's) to be inferior to the F81 in precision and HF balance.
So the best commercially available speaker is the ML CLX, because the mid/HF panel is narrow and the whole speaker is not tall. The design resembles the King stats, which are still better because of all the flat panels.
Apologizes to those who don't find all this relevant to their needs, but I hope others find it useful.
WC, I know my quest may not correspond to your present approach with resale considerations, but I just mention products that have real excellence and value by being cheap enough that financially you will come out ahead. You can just get the CLX-REL and be done with the speaker quest and save a lot of money.
skootb, Yes, I recall the Mytek reviewer said that used as 2 monos, the sound is fuller. This is not my taste, but you can see what suits you. A single stereo offers good power, especially for even moderately efficient speakers. No need to blast your head and ears off. Two amps gets more expensive, and I prefer to save for the potentially SOTA Merrill Elements. Aside from more power, I believe that bridged monos of any amp are inferior for purity, because more circuitry is in the chain with opportunity for added distortion.
viber6, in your last post, you said " because more circuitry is in the chain with opportunity for added distortion ". This is why I went passive. I certainly know what eq does, but, unlike you, I have no desire to change the way each and every recording I listen to. What a pain, and again, not necessary. If I recall, Klark Teknik had / has a very good eq that had several memory positions ( consumer gear such as Sansui, Kenwood and others as well ). Speaker / room interaction would be the only reason I would use eq at this point. Back in the day, with my short lived band, we used eq for recording, and my studio time, the same. I am happy with all of the eq on my recordings. If I were to ridicule an aspect of some recordings, it would be to much compression. I know an eq could help with that as well, but, different strokes. My Rane, as I indicated in an earlier post, and, we discussed, is the ME60, not the ME60S.....WC, back to you ! Enjoy ! MrD.
ok guys, i have been laying low lately, but that is when i am making moves. Anytime you see me go silent, that is a sign of things to come. With that said, my new speakers will ship this coming Friday. I won't say what they are until they hit my door, but let's just say that hmmm they have been mentioned here a few times. :) Now i need to head to the gym to get my back arthritis fixed. i will need to feel good for those speakers. Is it scary? yes, will it be alot of work ? yes. have i owned this brand of speakers before? yes. Are they the most expensive component i've owned? absolutely yes. Stay tuned... i TOLD YOU ALL i was going to make this interesting again.
mrdecibel, Yes, we agree that passive has a big advantage by avoiding line stage circuitry. With all the preamps I ever had (in those days most preamps were really complete, with phono stage and line stage in one unit), I would bypass the line stage, taking the phono stage output directly into the power amp. I would choose music where the volume was just right, since I also bypassed the volume control. In every case, there was such a remarkable increase in clarity, transparency that I thought I discovered America. But you admit the value of EQ in your recordings. Digital has proved that compression is not needed and is inappropriate. Personally, I keep the EQ settings for most recordings the same, so there's no trouble or extra work. A particularly muddy and distant sounding recording will require a different adjustment, but that isn't common. Besides, I remember all the recordings and adjustments, just as musicians remember the character of other musicians they have played with. If I ever forget, I can instantly make adjustments the way a violinist rapidly retunes between movements of a piece. Actually, the biggest reason I use EQ, is that all speakers have such large deviations from reality, combined with room problems. I have the rare nerve to believe that I can make a speaker sound very close to a real musical instrument or voice. As musicians we know the difference between a box stuffed with electronic parts/drivers and an instrument made of natural materials like wood, metal or a human voice of flesh. This YUGE difference is why if you want to do the ultimate, EQ is required. If possible, email me close-up pictures of your Rane if you still want to sell it. russlaud@gmail.com.
... even though we can't all afford some of this gear, or for those that can but may choose to use their money in other ways, we can live vicariously through this thread and the shared experiences of our fellow audiophiles.
grey9hound, Yes, why would we be interested in things we cannot afford? A few people here can afford anything, but prudently refuse to spend the big money on mediocre performance, which is the case with many of these items where image and glitz is the thing. I know we feel frustrated that WC doesn't consider high value cheap things like Tekton DI, Rane EQ, Mytek/Emotiva amps, Lyngdorf, Luminous passive, etc. Still, he is a nice guy who generously shares his experiences with us. It's like reading an entertaining novel with fictional characters. But better, because some of us know these characters as they pop out of the page.
Remember guys, one can’t please everyone. I am sitting here listening to the Magico s5 mk2 for one last time before they go to their new home. I’m trying to close my eyes and capture as much in head of what this speaker can do as I possibly can so I can compare with what lies ahead. Although yes I loved a lot of what it can do, but it won’t stop me from pushing forward. The ref10 is possibly the item that has sat here the longest and only because I don’t think that there is anything that tops it for under 50k. Just remember one thing, the next speaker is a speaker that JUST ABOUT EVERYONE went against it. I decided to say “ I don’t give a d@amn, let me find out for myself” and go from there. I WILL MAKE THAT CALL. I didn’t start this journey being scared or with fear. I’ve bought stuff that people wouldn’t dare to buy and at that time I had my hesitations but I came out fine. This time, yes we are talking north of $50k and it’s real money but I welcome the challenge. I welcome to find out with my own ears how good or not so good this will be. I will try to film their arrival once they get here and maybe even post a video on YouTube. Maybe that will be the beginning? We will see ;)
@whitecamaross Please do not take anything that I say personal. I am just stating my opinion ,and am not trying to make you mad in any way. I hope these new speakers will be able to do BASS well. If so ,then the music that i sent you will sound much better as most of it has good bass. I guess for me to say that i am not interested if you buy some 50 k ish speakers is somewhat wrong. I am still interested in your reviews and finding , just like everyone else. I should correctly say that I will be disappointed since I cannot afford them, rather than uninterested I still am not forgiving you for referring to Tekton as Hyundai , though :)
Grey9hound: I didn’t take anything personal. I am just saying that the speakers I chose was simply because I felt like I had a great opportunity, I’ve been curious about it, I Believe it will be good but I won’t know until it’s here. Remember, I am going to also have a shot at trying some monster Monos that are being built as we speak. These will be put to the test in more ways than you can imagine. I am not leaving magico to try something I believe will be inferior. However, that remains to be seen. Lastly, the combo I’m getting ready to put together is one that no dealer and nobody has ever done before. I’ve got 2 dealers that will be here to hear this madness once everything is in place. Will I fail? We shall see...
Actually the more I think about it , Tekton is more like Chevrolet and the Double Impacts are like a Camaro SS. The Encores , and Ulfberht like a Corvette. They all give you a Hell of a lot of performance for the money.
I doubt the thread will come to an end. You can’t put a muzzle on 3 or 4 of the self proclaimed experts in this thread. They will continue expounding on the merits of their yugo class gear no matter what, which I think is worse than a Hyundai matter of fact.
WC, Good luck, and I hope your back gets better. But you can most likely top the Ref 10 for neutrality and clarity for under $1k with the Luminous passive. One day you will realize that neutrality and clarity are most important. You want a variety of flavors in your music, but starting with wine sweetened with sugar is not the way to do it. I just hope you don't incur financial strain before you learn this. If you still want sugary wine, there are many much cheaper ways to get this. It is really hard to get neutrality and clarity. Pricy fine wines are not sweet. But many wine connoisseurs have chosen cheap wines as preferable to expensive ones, in blind taste tests. There's a BIG lesson there, totally applicable to audio.
WC, I just had a look at the pictures of maplegrovemusic's KS 17 on A-gon offers. In the background to the left is the original King Sound King model, 6 feet tall and about 28 inches wide. I heard this in NJ at a dealer and GUARANTEE that it is better in every way except maybe deepest bass extension than everything you are considering or have ever heard. The KS 17 is taller and narrower, a more recent design. It probably has comparable performance to the original King. It may actually perform better in your room since the KS 17 is narrower than the King. I don't know maplegrovemusic--I am just trying to be helpful. Unbeatable deal at $9500 asking price, even if the speaker develops a problem later.
Trying once again to guess what mono amps you are getting....
From what you say that no one has done before...My best guess would be Simaudio Moon 880 monos. You loved the Simaudio 860, and if you get some speakers that can handle some serious power, this would be my best guess.
Another amplifier that stirs things (other than the D'ags) are the Constellation Audio products. The Constellation Centaur II monos look to be a great choice as well for having the current to drive REALLY GOOD SPEAKERS that can handle high power.
This is going to be very exciting for you to experience another step up in sound reproduction. Good for you. I know if I could go further up the chain, I would. The one thing I wouldn't shell out big money for is a vinyl setup. With great sounding DACs out there now, why spend the amount of money that it costs to setup a proper vinyl system. I'll have you know that my CD Transport shooting out SPDIF to my DAC sounds better than anything in my system. The same FLAC file dished out from my Surface Pro clone computer is not the same as the CD. And that is using a USB bridge called the Singxer SU-1 with some of the best Femto Clocks around coming out AES to the DAC. Redbook CDs are still better on my system with the transparent sound that is just a notch better. And they cost peanuts these days on Amazon.
I’ve got no interest in vinyl. I don’t hate it but I don’t plan to start buying records. As far as amps, no it’s not momentum’s since I couldn’t get a deal done with anyone. I will do what nobody thought could be done. I learn through this journey without really focusing too much on what magazines write. I plan on video taping this once they arrive next week.
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