Soulution 700 monos on the way WC? My guess.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
@whitecamaross I was going back on this thread to see if you ever compared the Mark Levinson 585 and the Luxman 509x integrated. I have heard the ML recently and liked it a lot. I have not heard the Luxman 509x and will not be able to hear it with the Magico A3 speaker I heard the ML with. Do you remember which of the 2 units you preferred? |
@whitecamaross Thanks. After listening to the ML 585 I came to understand some of the things you described
about it
in your posts. I also noticed those characteristics you have described during my demo. I did this listening at the dealer with Magico A3. I am buying the A3's. I thought the ML 585 was great with the A3. Your recommendation of the Luxman 509x carries a lot of weight and I will likely get that from A'gon unheard. A few others have mentioned this combo. |
WC, my guess is that the Lux is more neutral/accurate compared to the ML 585, right? My listening has found ML to be on the sweet side, in general. Going way back to the ML 2 class A power amp, initially it was cold and sterile, but after only a short break in, it did a 180 and became syrupy sweet. The ML 6a preamp was really expensive at $6K in 1980, but it was syrupy sweet, a real letdown. I think the Soulution 700 series should be considered for its clarity and neutrality, although my dealer for the Soulution and the Mola Mola thought the latter beat the former for these qualities. Even though the Mola Mola has poor resale value, it retails for "only" $16K, compared to the far more expensive Soulutions and other big monos you are considering. I have written to Guido privately and encouraged him to more formally evaluate the Merrill Elements, which promise to be a game changer. The reviewer of the Element 118 uses the Pass 350.5 as his reference, which is far from SOTA. So Guido may have an opportunity to be much more informative, by comparing the Element to his SOTA Rowland 925. |
yyz, I throw my humble one, don’t buy anything that expensive without demoing it with the speakers you have or will buy. When I sold my Gryphon Diablo 300 to finance emergency situation, I did a lot of research and based on that research I bought luxman 509x. After 200 hours of brake in, in spite of the all proper variables like resolution, imaging, lack of digital glare, good bass, I still had the feeling that something amiss, so when opportunity came,I jumped and got a Pass int-250 and once I had it and compared with luxman, I realized that pass (gryphon also) have that sound that you feel that you are listening to the music, with luxman in my system I felt that I’m listening the hifi device. When somebody on this forum made a brief comment that listening to the luxman 509x reminded him sound of the receiver from 70s, I was outraged, but now I kind of agree with that. Long story short, no matter what anybody saying, no matter how reputable these people are, always try to demo with the components you have or about to get before you commit. |
I first heard the Magico A3 with the following gear: ML 526 preamp ML 536 mono blocks Chord DAVE dac Magic A3 It was fatigue free and fairly detailed with great separation between the instruments. Imaging was outstanding with air around everything. I was never much of a Mark Levinson fan thinking there gear was over priced. I am also not a tube guy and prefer the clarity I get from SS gear. I was very happy to have such a positive experience with the latest ML gear, did not hear the syrupy sound mentioned in the above post with the older ML gear. So much so that I am going to buy the Magico A3’s. BTW - when I put in the ML 585 into the mix I felt it got a good deal of what I heard with the gear mentioned above. You could tell it was not as good but thoroughly enjoyable nevertheless. Saying all of this I am definitely going to check out the Luxman 509x. It also does 2 things (other than sound differences) differently than the ML585. It has no dac and it has 2 sets of speaker outputs (useful to me). @denon1 Sounds like good advice. There is an audio event in LA with a Luxman dealer. I think I will head out to that. Usually not the best way to demo but the dealer will not be wasting time with me on a 1-on-1 basis. I do have the ML 585 in my back pocket if I do not find anything I like better. |
best amps I recall at low volume: mark levinson 532h mcintosh 2301 luxman 900u pass xs150 hmm I’m sure I’m missing a few more. The gryphon diablo 300 is great at low volume as well. Look, I don’t bs anyone here. If I had 15k to spend on an amp and preamp, I’d get the Luxman 509 or Diablo 300. You can’t get an amp and preamp that can rival them for less than 15k. |
best amps I recall at low volume: mark levinson 532h mcintosh 2301 luxman 900u pass xs150 hmm I’m sure I’m missing a few more. The gryphon diablo 300 is great at low volume as well. Look, I don’t bs anyone here. If I had 15k to spend on an amp and preamp, I’d get the Luxman 509 or Diablo 300. You can’t get an amp and preamp that can rival them for less than 15k. |
WC, it was your early review of the ATI 6005 sounding nothing special at low volume that saved me from venturing into it. You deserve much thanks for just that. Something is wrong with resolution if an amp doesn't excite the listener at low volume. In real life, a person with intelligent things to say who speaks softly and clearly will command attention, whereas the mumbling boring guy who has to shout is not worth listening to. |
During my A3 audition on Saturday I made a point of listening to the ML 585 and Magico A3 at low volume. We observed that we could hear all of the music range at the lowest volume. The dealer said the reason for this was that the Magico A3 had an inert enclosure and the ML 585 had a very low noise floor. |
WC, interesting point you make about multichannel amps. The 2 channel ATI 6002 might then be better for sonic purity than the 6005, or are you saying that multichannel amps skimp on the power supply for each amp, compromising high power performance? Put another way, at low volumes are the multichannels worse for sonic purity than the stereos, as well as being inferior at higher volumes? The ultimate amp from the ATI designer, the legendary Morris Kessler, is the powerful SAE HP2D. Kessler's emphasis on performance over cosmetics and his efficient manufacturing and contracting services for famous manufacturers have created true value. Michael Fremer from Stereophile, whose ears I "trust" said that the SAE is the most neutral, accurate amp he has heard. His sonic preferences are slightly to the warm side, but he still values neutrality/accuracy, so he respects it although it is not his reference amp. You can get the SAE with meters for $20K retail or without meters for $16K. I can't handle the weight but you can. I wish they had mono versions if only because I could handle that weight, but for the stereo version that is available at a reasonable price, I think you might consider it. Of course, monos usually are better than stereo versions, but they are usually priced double the stereo versions, and I honestly don't think the 20-30% improvement is worth 100% increase in the price. More important than stereo vs mono is the thinking that went into it. A SOTA advanced thinking concept implemented in stereo would be superior to a lesser design in monos. Sure the resale value is probably low, since SAE is not popular, but think of the maximum loss of $16K on the SAE or the Mola Mola, and I would estimate that you are taking comparable absolute losses although smaller percentage losses in the expensive $50K stuff. On the other hand, you are savvy in waiting for good deals, so getting a used Mola Mola, SAE for $8-10K, which you might have to wait many months before selling it at $7K is only a minimal absolute loss. |
techno_dude, funny. Actually it is the name of the biggest fish of its type. The designer Bruno Putzeys thinks his amp is the "biggest fish in the sea." I considered it the most ambitious implementation of the Hypex NC 1200 module, invented by Bruno himself, until Guido pointed out that more advanced implementations include the big Rowlands and the Merrill Elements. The Mola Mola Kaluga is the most accurate/neutral big power amp I have heard at home. I was set to spend the $16K until Guido mentioned the Merrill, so I will wait for his evaluation. I live reasonably close to Merrill, so I can visit him as more info becomes available. The second in line Merrill Element 116 is "only" $22K, still powerful, and the last is the 114, fairly powerful and probably way below $20K. Be patient everyone, and we'll see. |
Guido, yes, thanks for correcting my mistake on the Elements. I meant to say that in class D, they are more advanced than the Veritas, Mola Mola and the many established and DIY companies' use of the various Hypex, Pascal and other modules. We'll see if the ambitious implementation of Merrill's GaN modules is superior to the ambitious implementation of NC1200 in the big Rowlands. I don't follow what you mean by saying that your review of E118/116 is purely hypothetical. I found your impressions of the E118 prototype very informative, and I hope you do the thorough evaluation of the production E118/116/114 consistent with your reputation. Next year, I will try one of them after cultivating a relationship with Merrill. If he permits, I will post here about that. But I won't have access to the SOTA Rowland, so your comparison to that will be eagerly awaited by all, especially WC who now considers the Rowland 925 the best amp he's heard by a mile. |
Guido, yes, thanks for correcting my mistake on the Elements. I meant to say that in class D, they are more advanced than the Veritas, Mola Mola and the many established and DIY companies' use of the various Hypex, Pascal and other modules. We'll see if the ambitious implementation of Merrill's GaN modules is superior to the ambitious implementation of NC1200 in the big Rowlands. I don't follow what you mean by saying that your review of E118/116 is purely hypothetical. I found your impressions of the E118 prototype very informative, and I hope you do the thorough evaluation of the production E118/116/114 consistent with your reputation. Next year, I will try one of them after cultivating a relationship with Merrill. If he permits, I will post here about that. But I won't have access to the SOTA Rowland, so your comparison to that will be eagerly awaited by all, especially WC who now considers the Rowland 925 the best amp he's heard by a mile. |
dguitarnut, sorry I didn't mean to post twice for emphasis. A-gon just had a technical problem so it came out again. This has occasionally happened to others here. But you are inappropriately negative and display a lack of understanding. I clearly said in the last line that WC found the Rowland 925 superior, so the Merrill Elements are clearly relevant to WC and anyone else here who is seeking SOTA amps. Guido's comments are most valuable. I write to him privately about mutual interests, but respond on this thread only to what is directly relevant to this thread. And for many here who can't afford high priced SOTA amps, I have recommended a few very affordable amps with excellent sonics. I hope they appreciate my efforts even if you don't. |
I can GUARANTEE that WC is not going to be buying any MERRILL amps....Unless he wants to lose 50% or more trying to flip it. Bringing up "Boutique" amps in this particular thread is pointless. Negativity has nothing to do with it. The OP has clearly laid out his thought process on this over 2 years YET people still recommend brands that A) Nobody has ever heard or have little interest in B) BAD "flipping" investments. Stick to the game plan. |
theothergreg, respectfully submitted, I think you are missing the point, it is not dguitarnuts contributions versus lack of contributions that are the issue (not sure why you would be keeping track). The point is that those of us who would find viber6's post interesting are stunned by his being so dense as to not realize that, as others have bluntly stated, he is "crashing" WC thread and should start his own. |
In my universe, one day I would like to see how an AudioResearch 150SE might sound in my system. Tempting. Very tempting. Right now,I use a REF6 and a Krell amp with MartinLogan 13a's. I am a believer in ARC technology especially after I was gobsmacked by the REF6 after I replaced my other preamp (Audible Illusions M3B). whitecamaross mentioned that he might try the new ARC REF160M monos one day and he did find the MAC tube 2301 quite enjoyable. Hmmmn. One day,one day. |
jetter, I understand the point quite well. dguitarnut (and others) keep telling us to keep this thread "on track." What is the track, pray tell? It started off with WC looking for the "best" stereo amplifier under $30k, and then progressed into preamplifiers, uber stereo amps, monoblocks, speakers and, most recently, cables. If we are keeping this thread "on track" shouldn't there be new ones created for each of the different topics introduced? This is a public forum and discourse should be expected (and even encouraged) without content police deciding what is relevant and what is not (it's not hard to keep track of dguitarnut's "contributions" since he has taken it upon himself to be the resident Barney Fife). If WC wants to be the only one to contribute, then he has many other avenues to do so. He has chosen to post on a public forum so, for better or worse, the thread is of the people and they will decide in which direction it will go. Just as viber6 is free to post his thoughts, we are also just as free to ignore them or comment back if we so desire without having someone act as judge, jury and executioner determining what is relevant or not. |
Speaking of cables, I was inspired by WC s tryouts lately. I borrowed a pair of the top of the line Shunyata XLR Sigma to compare with my Zitron Anacondas XLR ( unshielded version). i must say that my system is pretty well fullly optimised resolution and transparency wise... Dedicated circuit and panel, oyaide r1 outlet. All Shunyatas power cables, upgraded fuses, etc..... No question, this system can tell a cable change, The new Sigmas packs a lot of technologies, feel free to visit their website to know more about those. Are the new Sigmas better ? I must admit yes. They are a tad clearer than the Anacondas. Did I bought them, no. At double the price of my Anacondas, plus the 50% resale hit I would take selling them, the difference does not justify the upgrade for me. Someone else may think otherwise. |
RIAA, you may be correct that for now, WC may not be interested in less popular brands like Merrill with questionable resale prospects. "Flipping" is a term most commonly applied to mundane things like real estate or stocks where the asset has no personal value to the flipper other than a financial transaction. Yet WC's journey is getting more selective as he considers mainly products with SOTA potential. He is settling down for now with his Magico speakers because of their quality. If the Merrill amps turn out to be SOTA and are as good or better than the Rowland 925, I think he might settle down with the Merrill, since they are much cheaper and will represent great value as well. The same goes for relatively inexpensive SOTA contenders such as the SAE 2HP or Mola Mola Kaluga. |
Jetter, as theothergreg describes in reference to someone else, you are another person who is just acting as a referee without contributing much of substance to the subject of this thread--identifying worthwhile electronics to be considered by WC and others. The issue of "whose" thread is less important than the totality of information shared, for the benefit of anyone who finds at least some of it valuable. Are YOU too "dense" to appreciate that? |
techno_dude, thanks for sharing your comparative evaluation of the Shunyata XLR's. I think the best bang for your Shunyata buck is the Denali. As I said before, I felt it was worth $4000 retail, and I don't think any cable is worth that kind of money for the relatively subtle benefit compared to the BIG difference with the Denali. |
Let me start by first addressing MIkePaul: MikePaul, get rid of that Krell amp. Krell never sounded any good to me with electrostatics. I had the 402e, duo300 and im sure another krell that i cant recall and they were nothing special with panels. Toss that amp out and get yourself either a gs150 audio research or a pass labs 160.5/8. Once you hear those THEN you will realize how NOT GOOD your current krell is. Electrostatics love class a amps and tubes. As far as the rest of the conversations going on in regards to Merrill amps: Yes, i have read about them. I love their look, on paper they seem to be something that has alot of potential. i also like that they seemed to have looked at every single detail from power cord, to amp stands and that is something that nobody else has ever done (that i know of?). That said, at $36k retail, they are in the big leagues and the competition at that price point is no joke and because of this, the massive loss one will take if one decides to jump on them and don’t like them will be huge. Merrill has been known for class d and i still believe the belcanto black system is the best incarnation of PURE CLASS D (Rowland 925s have other tricks in them besides that). At this time, unless Merrill sent me a pair to demo for 30 days and i was blown away by them, i can’t see myself grabbing them. Lastly, remember one thing guys, i can’t keep this thread alive if i make bad investments. I walk a fine line in regards to my purchases. I don’t like to buy something i am not completely sure about UNLESS again, i get a screaming deal that i was not even looking for. For me to spend top dollar on a product it has to be that i heard it somewhere and i literally couldn’t get off the couch and i have to have it. Why do you think i have not visited Mike @ Suncoast audio? because i know he probably has an amp that i will be blown away by and i just don’t want to commit to spending 30,000 dollars on an amplifier. I have my budget to be spread out in ratios and 30k for a single amp is not in my plans. Before i forget, Viber, if you end up getting those element 118s, i would like to hear your impressions for sure and hey if you want me to give you my opinion then pack them up and i will send you prepaid shipping labels. i can let you borrow one of my amps. Oh wait, what amps? lol i only have the ps audio bh300s, BAT 600SE and Gryphon Diablo 300 :) Make no mistake, my next amps will have to be magical. I am looking to see if i can truthfully top those rowlands. I know some of you hate it when i venture into expensive amplifiers and message me telling me you are kinda getting bored of me reviewing expensive amps SO THAT IS WHY i have the bh300s and the bat 600se on hand so i can give you a comparison to both, top end up and mid fi amplifiers. |
WCSS,I do not feel that you are being fair with Krell amps. The models you mention and the other monoblocks you had a little while ago are known to be no where as good as some of the older Krell models. I own a KSA-200S, KSA-250 and a KST-100. It is a different sound than the Evolution, Duo models and the monoblocks you had. Dan's creations of yesteryear should be treated with more respect. I feel butt hurt. |
Viber, thanks for the Denali Advice. I like reading you about new Class D sota amps out there. About the Denali, do you think it would still make a difference to my system, even if I've already got Alpha noise reduction power cords...those already have filters built in them. They really do a very good job. Also, here in Canada the AC is very clean as it comes from hydroelectric turbines...clean , reliable, stable 120v ac. |
Guys.....everyone of you say that cables make a difference correct? So this establishes that we hear subtle audio qualities. I have moved up several ladders like WC. Most have noticed as you move up these ladders wires generally get better until you hit a major design change (ie copper to silver to gold etc etc). If your ears prefer silver you may like x brands silver implementation over Y’s. I still have cables from relatively obscure origins that I have to about give away if I want them gone. I can turn over my Ansuz or Crystal cables for reasonable money. Same for speakers. My return to Hifi had me starting out with Tekton Reference Lore and a Bryston B135-sst2 integrated. After paying freight and fees I recovered less than 25% of my investment after a year of actively trying to sell the Tektons. The fella who bought them is happy as a clam along with a $150 dollar Sony home theatre receiver and says he can’t imagine a better sound. Got Harbeths and when I sold them I recovered about 60%. Bought Magicos then moved up and recovered 75%. Now in each case they were all current models when I sold them. This is why generally you shouldn’t invest in certain brands unless you want to keep forever. The Tektons are a bargain at their price....the Harbeth cost 4X and barely were better. The Magicos were 3X the price of the Harbeths and were quantitatively much better to my ears. Yes......I had found MY sound. The Tektons where far removed from the Magicos......I can’t imagine any Tekton matching the sound of my S3Mk2s same as WC’s S5mk2......sorry. I replaced the Bryston integrated with a Pass 60-int. The Bryston did fine with the Tektons but struggled with the Harbeths. The Pass had much better control and bass. After acquiring the Magicos which are very fast speakers I started auditioning other integrateds. Gryphons integrated blew me away with their dynamic, live in front of you presentation with the best staging and imaging I have ever heard in my home....... To think of ever wanting to try unknown brands with dubious engineering no matter the price after reaching the heights that WC has reached is not enticing in any way or form. With limited funds those are very good options though......but you better plan on keeping them for a long long time. Hope you are happy as a clam too! Lol I for one get tired of reading about this type of gear. |
techno_dude, Honestly I don't understand the technology in the Denali, or the designer, Caelin Gabriel's reasoning that the miles of power line from the utilities are less important than the few feet immediately before the amp and other components plugged into the Denali. He claims that the Denali is NOT a typical power conditioner with capacitive/inductive filters, but it uses proprietary materials that "absorb" impurities. I don't understand this, but all I can say is that with my system and dirty power in NYC, the Denali makes a WHALE of a difference. For many years, I had been so frustrated that at different random, unpredictable times, my system sounded so veiled and amorphous like it had marshmallows in its mouth. After 1 minute, I decided it was a waste of time to listen to it. I had the Isotek Evo Sigmas conditioner which displayed the line voltage and distortion "measurements," but none of that correlated with the sound quality. I was intellectually frustrated as well. But the Denali has made the system sound great the vast majority of the time. I understand your hesitation because of the great Canadian AC and the other excellent things you have done with the outlets, cables, etc. The best thing to do is to try the Denali for 60 days no risk from Music Direct. I don't think break in is much of an issue, but 60 days of trial should be enough time to judge for yourself. I'm not sure the tower version is worth $1000 more than the horizontal version I have, although Shunyata claims that the horizontal version requires an isolation platform to get the best result. I just have the horizontal version on a plain thin wood table, and am very happy with the results. |
dguitarnut, Thanks for recounting your experiences. I agree with most of what you said, but still keep an open mind about new technologies and unknown brands. That's how progress is made, when an unknown someone has original ideas. I don't want to seem like a devout advocate of Merrill or anyone else. At the prices and resale uncertainties, they all require tough scrutiny and trial. |
WC, Merrill functions like many small companies with a direct sales model involving a 30 day free trial period, with no stupid "restocking" fee. The only real risk is whether 30 days is enough time to judge the broken in unit. Guido says that class D changes up to 1000 hours. If the amp is played continuously, 30 days will give you 700 hours. In my limited experience with the new Classe D200 and the Mytek Brooklyn amp, the character of the sound didn't change much in the first 100-200 hours. If the Elements are truly blow away outstanding, the character will tell you if they are worth the INVESTMENT (not for trying and flipping), even if ultimate break in is uncertain. Perhaps you are still in the try/flip stage and are not ready to get "married" to anything audio, although you are in a serious "relationship" with the Magico. At my age of 65, I wonder how long my good hearing will last, so if the Elements are that wonderful, this will be the last amp INVESTMENT I make. It better be Tony the Tiger GREAT, or else I don't spend the money. Regarding electrostatics, it is important that an amp provide high power into extremely low impedances. SS amps do that better than tubes. As far as sound quality, I believe that certain stats have the most accuracy, and I want all upstream components to have the utmost accuracy in the service of information retrieval. There is certainly the risk that this approach will lead to more "warts" in the total sound, which I can tolerate if I am very happy with hearing the most info out of the music. I personally don't believe in combining complementary colorations such as warm tube preamps with clear SS amps, because this often leads to the realization that a lot is missing even if you think you have created balance. Don't expect coffee to cure a hangover from too much alcohol, just let time clear the alcohol. |
viber6, I don't really care what theothergreg thinks and less you. Why don't you take WC's request and purchase the element 118s and post your review here? Its clear you are so craving attention that your sidetracking WCs thread instead of starting your own?. You don't happen to also post under Bo1972 also? |