Last thing i still don’t know which speaker will remain and which one will go. Both do great things in their own right.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
It is a good analogue, where the road, and all the other inconveniences you describe, can be viewed as your system upstream. However, unlike the road, you do have control over your upstream, and you can ‘fix’ it, so your ride will be as smooth and cool (or choppy and hot if you wish) as possible even at 300 Mph. Magicos are incredibly transparent, they allow you to hear MUCH better what is in front of them. That is all. They don’t push nor mask information, or EQ the sound, they just let you hear what is coming in (Contrary to some reports they are not demanding at all, if you feed them right). Why would anyone want to mask this uniquely, clear window as opposed to start clearing up what’s in front of it? |
Nothing is finalized between these 2 speakers, as WC is still figuring out the sound he wants. Attributes and trade offs. Besides, the Neoliths are just around the corner. This has been some merry go round, and will not end for a long time, as the process of trial and error is the most exciting part of it all. This is just my take on it. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Hi Whitecamaross, This is an amazing thread. It has taken me about three weeks to work my way through it. While I do not wish to steal your thread and am not in your league price wise, I was hoping for the benefit of your experience. And anyone else can chime in as well:-) My room is 18 by 34 with room treatments on the front wall. Due to room logistics, speakers can sit out in the room about 4 feet with 3 feet on one sidewall and and 7 feet on the other side wall. I sit about 9 feet from the speakers, which are about 9 feet apart. Thus roughly half the room length is behind me. I worked my way up the Magnepan food chain and then switched to Thiel CS5's. A $10,000 speaker in the day that I bought for $2,600. My preamp is a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium and I listen to redbook CD's with a Hegel HD25 DAC using an AudioSpace CD8 with Phillips transport. I have auditioned in home Krell, Parasound, Hegel, Levinson, and Pass amps among others. I liked a Pass x350.0 the best but it was huge and was a space problem. My current amp is a Coda CS that sounds remarkably similar to the Pass to my ears. I have been told that Pass dealers do not like Coda because of the close similarity of sound and much tighter profit margins on the Codas. The Thiels dip down to under two ohms and are inefficient but the Coda has no trouble with the bass. The Coda stays in Class A for the first ten watts. It seems to me that the sound becomes too bright in the treble at high volumes. Maybe because the Coda leaves class A? Anyway, I like a smooth, nuanced sound with detail and a deep sound stage. My head banging days are over as I seem to have gravitated to acoustic music, jazz, and female vocals. So...assuming that I keep the Thiels, what is the weakest link in my system and what would be a good improvement and why? I appreciate any feedback. Thank you! Dsper |
WC--I hope you read this is time before you take the Neolith plunge. You know that I love the electrostatic concept and that properly implemented it is superior (lack of coloration, best transient response, etc) to other driver technologies except possibly plasma. However, 35 years ago I learned that large electrostatic panels that are also curved are a big compromise. Back in 1982 I heard the Dayton Wright stat, a huge panel 4 feet square. It was so colored that it sounded like it mumbled with 25 marshmallows in the mouth. Most any decent moderate sized dynamic speaker sounded more truthful and less distorted. My 1st serious speaker was the huge Maggie Tympani 1D, a planar magnetic. Despite excellent highs, the midrange was bloated like a 500 lb person in the circus. Not lifelike, to say the least. I revolted against bigness, and my next speaker was the Rogers LS 3/5A minimonitor, which was very coherent and clear, superb. I also heard the Stax F83 stats side by side with the F81. The F83 was a stacked double F81. Certainly more dynamic than the F81, but the larger panel created time smear so it lost clarity when compared to the smaller F81. I believe the best speaker from Martin Logan is the reasonably priced CLX, which uses a narrow stat driver for freq over 360 Hz, and then a much larger stat driver down to 56. Of course, you would want to add a dynamic woofer. I heard the CLX years ago, and it was excellent. I haven't heard the Neolith, but I predict that the very large single driver for freq above 400 will create bloat and coloration. Even if I were a billionaire, I would predict I would prefer the CLX for accuracy. You should hear both but don't make a blind decision just because you can swing a good deal for the Neo. Meanwhile, I think your Magico is a superb implementation of SOTA dynamic drivers, with a sensible size so the instruments and singers are lifelike in tone and size. The Neo is a very compromised implementation of stat technology, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Magico is superior in all the important ways. Also, some time ago you were concerned that the Neo is too big for your room. It would have the same drawback as the Vivid Giya. Probably the finest electrostatic to consider would be models from King Sound, from Hong Kong. The King is a full range stat, with narrow tweeter panels and larger lower freq panels. It is superior because the panels are not curved, so there is no roll-off of the highs and the time smearing of curved designs like Martin Logan and Soundlab. The tweeter panel is about 3 inches wide so there is a reasonable large sweet spot so 2-3 people can enjoy all the information and detailed sound. Read the superb review by Doug Schneider. Unfortunately, the marketing sucks and dealers have dropped out. It would be worth a trip to Hong Kong to hear them if you can't find US distributors who can demo the line. A few months ago, a guy in Conn on USAudiomart was giving away the tall King model, which I have heard elsewhere and is superb, for less than $3K. Maybe there is no company reliable support, but who cares for that little money. Another option is the Eminent Technology planar magnetic, which is an excellent implementation of that technology with a modestly sized image presentation. It sounds great, for only $2500 retail. The midrange was SOTA, and the highs very good. Doug Schneider considered the Eminent his reference until he found the King Sound. Eminent is in Florida, and you can try it risk-free for 30 days, direct sale. And don't forget Wisdom Audio as I have mentioned before. |
WC--I forgot to add that retail prices for the King are only in the teens, so very little risk. And light too, unlike the 500 lb Neo. Ready for the circus, Logan? The pity is that often successful companies with relatively mediocre products make it due to marketing, whereas truly superior sleepers like King Sound and Eminent Technology that are relatively cheap just fade away. |
I appreciate your words viber. Makes a ton of sense. I did own the clx art before for a little bit and it was incredible. Just beautiful to listen to and I’d say I preferred it over the 15a renaissance. As far as the neoliths, yes I have a possible deal aligning and yes I would need to sacrifice the magicos plus a few other pieces. I spoke to Martin Logan and they said the speakers would work just fine in my room because they don’t interact with side walls. I was told that yes I won’t be able to hear them at their full capability because they need a bigger room but that even in my room they will blow away anything else I’ve owned simply because it’s a massive panel sending you a large picture of information that you can’t hide from. I’m not 100% mentally ready yet for them but I would say I’m about 70% there. One thing that stuck in my head today was something that someone said to me which was: “ it doesn’t matter how many more speakers I bring here. It will take one hell of a speaker to beat the neoliths which will cost substantially much more money” That comment stuck with me. It kinda gave me the feeling of not looking back after entering something like the neoliths because your ears will be used to that massive sound that will make most other speakers sound small and lethargic in comparison. So essentially let’s just say I’m only enjoying 70% of the neoliths because of my room. Well even at 70% of their capabilities the neoliths will destroy a boat load of speakers. |
Anyone here know the size of the demo room for the Neoliths at the last RMAF ? That room was not huge and great sound was had . viber6 - I have the newest Kingsound KS17 . I am looking to sell . Told wc he should think about them . There are 18'' wide . I also own the first generation King - King . Need to sell the ks17 for financial reasons . |
The King is a full range stat, with narrow tweeter panels and larger lower freq panels. It is superior because the panels are not curved, so there is no roll-off of the highs and the time smearing of curved designs like Martin Logan and Soundlab.To imply that the SoundLab panel rolls off the high frequencies because of it's curved design is ridiculous at best. As an SL A1 owner for 10+ years, I have played with a multitude of amps, tube and ss with these speakers and I have upper frequency extension and clarity that few, very few, dynamic speaker systems can even begin to touch. The Stax and ML models, flat or curved I heard at that time were too analytical and boring compared to the SL. After hearing all the great speakers many many times at the Newport shows, there were a handful that resulted in outstanding performance. But a return to the SL room, even with the dealer using mid-fi electronics (ugh!), there was an immediate sonic quality (clarity) to be heard that simply stood out. If time smearing occurs as is claimed by viber6, I don't know how the clarity can be so impressive. I highly doubt that SL would continue to build these products after decades when they started with flat panels if time-smearing was their observation. I suggest a read of the link here where the SL geometry is discussed about segmented design of faceted panels vs. curved panels. https://www.soundlab-speakers.com/geometry.html The A1 can fill a large room with impressive dynamics and low frequency .... and at a designer-spec'd 89db sensitivity. A high current 125w ss amp such as the small Symphonic Line RG11 amplifier can drive the A1's to easily fill my 24x18 room to mid 90s db level before any hint of clipping is heard. Double the amp's power here would certainly be beneficial for some material. For the KS speakers at 83db sensitivity, we are looking at 2-3x the required power and that quickly gets insanely expensive. A recommended 100-200w amp here is laughable unless these are to be played in a bedroom and the focus is talk radio or your collection is all folk music. The A1 like the SF Futura can be enjoyed across a wide width of seating positions. The many Acoustat and ML electrostatic speakers that I heard lacked this "quality". I suspect the KS will have a similar if not the same problem. And the same with the Focal Sopra 2, but that is a fun speaker, not analytical at all. So if you don't want to keep your head in a vice while seated, to hear a refined presentation, I would tread carefully with electrostatic recommendations. |
So the sonore signature se did not make any difference from my laptop. I only streamed tidal so I was warned that maybe for tidal it won’t be as effective. Long story short, if you’re streaming tidal and you are using an outstanding dac like the esoteric k1 that I’m using, it doesn’t make sense to use the sonore signature se. It didn’t make any real difference that I could pick up through the magico. My laptop sounded just as good. That is a testament to the esoteric dac more than anything. |
847 posts07-17-2018 3:22pm" The speakers are incredible but my room doesn’t allow me to hear them how they should be heard. I realize in my room I need speakers the size of a Sasha or focal Sopra 3. I could try Alexia but I can’t do anything bigger ". WC, this you said about the Vivid Giya. You also stated that the " presentation " was too large for your room. But, you are considering the Neoliths ( which I do feel might work better , simply because they do not have the multiple drivers). And the hits keep commin ! One day, you will find your way ! WC, continue the journey, and Enjoy ! MrD. |
The neoliths do not interact with the side walls. This is huge for me because my room is only 15 feet wide. Electrostatics are a different Animal than the vivid audios were. You are comparing apples to oranges. They couldn’t be more different. The only thing they have in common is the sheer size. The only reason why I can’t just do it ASAP is because of the logistics. Even the magicos were a project to get inside the living room. Heavy as hell so imagine how the neoliths would be. They won’t fit through the door so they have to come in through my sliding door and at a 45 degree angle outside of the crates. |
jafox--to better understand my reasoning, I will tell you my musical background. I started playing the violin in school in 1962, and by 1970 I was playing on a virtuoso, near professional level. I have played in several semi-professional orchestras, string quartets, piano trios, etc. I made my solo debut playing the Mendelssohn violin concerto with orchestra in 1993 at the age of 40. My last solo was in the Lalo Symphonie Espagnole in 2010. This is a virtuoso, dynamic piece with much percussion and brass dynamics. Standing while playing solo immersed in the orchestra with all instruments blaring at me at close range is an experience that I wish audiophiles could have. I have made recordings of many concerts with close microphone placement just above the head of the conductor. The conductor has the best position in the house, and my recordings show that. Most commercial recordings have mics higher and a bit further back, but the truth of what is on most of these recordings is MUCH MORE DETAILED than what the concertgoer even in the first few rows hears. So when some audiophile reviewer says that he loves the sound from a system which sounds like it is in row J (10), he is totally misinformed about what is really on the recording. The recording is closer than the 1st row. Such a listener/reviewer is entitled to like row 10 sound, but it is not HIGH FIDELITY to the recording. I would often arrive in the rehearsal hall late, so I heard the sound from various rows, and it was as dull as dishwater compared to when I took my seat playing in the orchestra. The technical pieces written by the staff at Martin Logan and Soundlab show that they do not come close to understanding and experiencing what I have explained in this post. Their speakers are dull and rolled off compared to the King Sound stats which use flat panels and dedicated narrow tweeter panels that project ALL of the highs to the listener in the sweet spot. Soundlab's panels would sound even more detailed if they straightened out the panels. Manufacturers and most listeners treat listening as a social experience wherein the goal is to get many listeners to enjoy the sound. But that means that each listener hears an inferior, compromised sound. King Sound has managed to have a reasonable sweet spot for 2-3 people but maintaining the most information retrieval. Next, "analytical" is a word with a negative connotation. We just want truth and the real details of instruments and voices. Anyone who loves their music should want to hear everything the composer and artists have put into it. That doesn't mean analyzing the sound like an audiophile or a sound engineer--it just means enjoying as much as possible about this beautiful creation. And finally, WC has discovered that 85 dB is a satisfying level to listen to his music. This parallels the real levels in natural settings. I was walking around in a residential suburban area the other evening, enjoying the surrounding world of many birds in the distance at levels of 20-30 dB, lawn sprinklers at 15-20 dB. I was startled by a close sounding crow at levels of about 50 dB. A loud singer performing in your living room would put out 85 dB, maybe 100 dB on fortissimo screaming peaks. So lower powered amps which tend to have lowest distortion are appropriate. If anyone has to blast speakers to get 100 or more dB before they hear all the detail, they are either hearing impaired or they have mediocre speakers with colorations that smear detail, mediocre moving magnet cartridges or super expensive Koetsu and similar cartridges that are deliberately designed to roll off and submerge details. So it is significant that the Magico is a very honest, revealing speaker that satisfies WC with natural sound at 85 dB. WC--visit maplegrovemusic to hear his King models. Maplegrove--email me with your contact info at russlaud@gmail.com. I am in NY, where are you? |
So the sonore signature se did not make any difference from my laptop. I only streamed tidal so I was warned that maybe for tidal it won’t be as effective. Long story short, if you’re streaming tidal and you are using an outstanding dac like the esoteric k1 that I’m using, it doesn’t make sense to use the sonore signature se. It didn’t make any real difference that I could pick up through the magico. My laptop sounded just as good. That is a testament to the esoteric dac more than anything. Camaro, how were you using the Rendu? Thanks. |
Rendu was connected via USB to my esoteric k1. I was streaming using roon from my iPad. I found zero difference between the sonore and my laptop. I’m actually willing to say my laptop sounded a little more detailed believe it or not. The sonore was probably a little warmer but no way in hell its worth 3295 dollars in my system. What I’m thinking it could Be is the fact that my esoteric k1 does not give a damn where the signal is coming from. It will internally turn that signal into what it needs to. |
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WC--I owe you a debt of gratitude for helping me be cautious on the ATI Signature amps which are highly rated. We may have somewhat different musical tastes, but I value your accurate assessment of the objective characteristics of sound, whether one likes it or not. You said at low levels, the ATI are nothing out of the ordinary. That saved me lots of back-breaking labor and hassle. So I feel I want to repay you with my caution on the Neos. Most of my pianist friends have large grand pianos in their modest living rooms with only 8 foot ceilings. Over 20 years ago, my friend bought a baby grand Steinway B piano which is 6.5 feet long. In his small apartment, it overloaded his room and sounded like an elephant in a bikini trying to dance in the small space. For that small room he would be better off with a smaller upright Steinway piano with excellent tone quality but a better match to his room. That larger piano would sound great in a small concert hall with a 40 foot ceiling. The flagship Steinway D grand is 9 feet long and is suited only to a very large concert hall with 100 foot ceiling. So I feel that the Neo would not provide 70% of its potential in your room, and would actually provide as low as 10% or even negative, if there is a speaker/room imbalance, like the elephant in the bikini. But the CLX which still creates a very large soundfield, would definitely better suit your room. Of course, you know that I believe that above 56 Hz, it is more accurate than the Neo. From 56 to 400 Hz, the CLX is giving you electrostatic quality which is more accurate than the 11" dynamic woofer of the Neo in that range. Right now, your Magico matches your room perfectly and you really love it. It would be a tragedy if you go through all the back breaking labor to get the Neos in there, give up the Magico and your other great stuff, and regret your change. Put another way, the Neo compared to the CLX would be like the Focal compared to the Magico--fuller, but not as accurate, with the Neo being out of balance with your present room. What Martin Logan said about the lack of sidewall interaction is true, but this misses the point that the Neo is far better suited to huge rooms with 20 foot ceilings, etc. Even then, the CLX would create a large soundfield with more accuracy, although probably with less power in the bass. By the way, how did the CLX compare to the Magico in terms of accuracy, information retrieval? |
viber6, I wouldn't call the Steinway B a baby grand. In fact, B is the second largest Steinway piano and is considered a professional/studio piano used by professional musicians and teachers. I have a model L (next size down from B) at home for 13 years. I've listened to my 2 pianist daughters play on the piano everyday for the past 13 years, so I know how loud Steinway can sound (especially on Liszt and Prokofiev pieces). Voicing the piano and placing a piece of rug under the piano help reduce the sound and brightness of the piano. Needless to say, I am always evaluating my stereo system against the live piano music and trying to improve it by getting the sound closer to the real thing. The journey continues. :) |
I heard the Neoliths at the RMAF last year (going again this year also), and they were in a regular size room. not large at all and sounded absolutely wonderful. I'm not sure that WC's room will hurt this much. I am very interested to read his impression of the Neoliths. I will say again that the REF 10 he is using isn't seeing it's potential. They sounded the best (to me) paired with Audio Research REF 250 SE amps. The only system I've heard that completely disappeared. Of coarse, the top of the line Basis turntable, REF 10 phono stage, and Vandersteen 7 speakers didn't hurt also. I'm leaning towards the opinion that the Neoliths may be too big for his room, but that is based on size, not sound. Those are some big speakers. WC, do you know anyone you can borrow some REF 250 SE amps from for a few days? I think you would be impressed. Anyway, looking forward to the next report. enjoy |
Hi guys and thanks for all your input in regards to the neoliths. I want all the feedback possible. That said, yes I agree the neoliths are physically huge and not my first choice in terms of its sheer mass but the sound I may get from them might a game changing experience. Think about it, 2 huge panels creating that kind of sound. How could you miss any sort of detail or information within your music? How could you miss any cable upgrades? I think it becomes a matter of their size at that point what impresses in terms of sound. I am a believer that when you own something so huge, for the most most part anything else will sound small and compressed in comparison. Its kind of like my Yukon XL. You step inside of it and you feel like you’re inside the President’s ride. Big, spacious, plenty of leg room, very comfortable etc but then you get inside your friends Lexus rx350... now you don’t have all this leg room, the big ride feeling with tons of comfort all around you. You lose the massive torque and grunt of the 6.2 liter engine, towing power and so on... I feel like owning the neoliths would be exactly the same thing. Your ears will be used to that massive wall of sound that just about any other smaller speaker you hear will sound much smaller and present less. This doesn’t mean it will be worse, but you can’t really make up for sheer size. Another example would be a projector compared to a tv. Yes you can get a quality 4k 80 inch tv but it WILL NEVER give you the feeling of being there the way a 120-160 inch projector screen can. You won’t get the feeling of being at the movies when you watch a movie through a tv. It’s impossible. Trust me I tried this myself after owning projectors and now owning a 77 inch tv. Every time I watch a movie it feels as if I’m watching tv. It is exactly this feeling what is steering me to the neoliths. Knowing that at that point and once you own something like it, anything else will seem inferior in comparison. You are pretty much at a level in terms of speakers that you really won’t question what other speaker to get. |
respected_ent, Thanks for the Steinway info. While it is thrilling to hear your 2 accomplished daughters play, and you can certainly be proud of them, I would caution that comparing piano recordings to the sound of the piano in your room is a difficult exercise. Unless your room is the size of the recording studio or live concert hall of the recording, the tonal balance will be radically different, even if you have the perfect audio system. The fact that you say the sound is loud suggests to me that your room is much smaller than the studio or concert hall. In that smaller room, the piano will be bass heavy compared to the recording in the larger space. Solo piano recordings are usually made with the microphones very close, even under the lid. The typical concertgoer has no idea of the differences between the seat in the hall and the sound heard by the close mics. The best you can do is to hear your daughters play on the stage at the school recital hall. Stand on stage reasonably close to the piano at a few different distances, so you can hear the microphone sound. The large stage will let the piano breathe, and then you can make a better evaluation of your audio system. |
WC--I do hope you learn the important lesson that bigness is not necessarily better. Your TV analogy may not be relevant to speakers. I related my experiences with big speakers. When I switched to the little Rogers LS 3/5A, I was shocked that this humble dynamic speaker could be superior in clarity and tonal balance to the big Maggie with its fancy ribbon, planar technology. That BIG Dayton Wright stat absolutely sucked! Before you take the plunge, why don't you visit a Martin Logan dealer and A/B the CLX with the Neo? See for yourself before getting rid of your Magico and other goodies. I am pretty sure you will find the CLX to be superior to the Neo in many if not most ways, especially in the qualities you appreciate in the Magico, and likely better than the Magico, since the CLX is a more intelligent application of the stat technology. But no guarantees, because the Magico may present a more focused image that you may prefer to even the CLX, let alone the Neo. You don't want that lithe 100 lb singer you like on the Magico to sound like a 400 lb female gorilla on the Neo or a 200 lb on the CLX. The Neo just includes a big woofer system to match the big stat panel. Trust me, "less is more" in this case. |
So the sonore signature se did not make any difference from my laptop. Rendu was connected via USB to my esoteric k1. I was streaming using roon from my iPad. @whitecamaross Asking again, how was the Rendu connected and setup? You were clear about the USB out from the Rendu to the Esoteric in the first post. I wasn't asking about that. Thanks. |
Rendu connected to the router using wireworld eclipse 7 Ethernet. Rendu connected to the esoteric dac using wireworld platinum usb cable. Rendu connected to the ps audio p20 power conditioner using wireworld silver 7 power cord. Laptop is simply turned on and connected to WiFi and running roon. Me sitting on the couch using iPad to stream tidal via roon through rendu. Results? Zero. No different than using my laptop and connecting straight to my dac with the usb cable. |
@whitecamaross To clarify and understand: Your Laptop is performing server duties and running Roon Core via WiFI? It's WiFi for the Laptop from and back to the Router? It's WiFi control via iPad, which is serving as Roon Remote? It's Router Direct to the Rendu via the Wireworld E7 LAN? Yes? I'm going to assume you updated the Rendu / SonicOrbiter to the current Roon version? Your Router is running off a wall wart or equivalent ps and hasn't been optimized in any way? Yes? Is USB the best way to deliver digital to your Esoteric DAC? Does Esoteric advise re. other digital inputs being superior? Thanks. - David. |
@whitecamaross Your mid range comments... Magico S5 does not have a hole in the mid range but there is a significant impedance dip. Perhaps the amplifier is not keeping up. The Focal Sopra 3 has a rather noisy cumulative decay - mid cone is resonating - perhaps you hear this splashy delayed resonance... |
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@viber6 You are absolutely right about the piano sounding different in different places (home, Steinway Hall, or a big concert hall). It also sounds different depending on the angle too. I’ve attended numerous piano concerts, and the worst place to sit is the front row seat where you are listening to the piano (on the stage) from below. Just didn’t sound right. My system is in no way close to the same sound as a real Steinway in terms of the loudness, power, and impact, but what I am looking for is the same sound signature. In other words, when I listen to my system, am I really hearing a Steinway piano or just a Yamaha. :) @shadorne Good point about pianoFORTE and the distortion. Thanks. |
respected_ent, Just guessing that you are in NYC because you have been to Steinway Hall on 57th St down the block from Carnegie? If you are within driving distance of me in NYC/NJ maybe you would enjoy hearing me play violin sonatas with either of your daughters. I agree that we want a high fidelity sound signature in audio systems, even if the scale (no pun) is different. Quality is more important than quantity. Contact me at russlaud@gmail.com. I like your ID--I am a respected internist. I have a wonderful CD that tests hearing thresholds in gradations of 1 dB from 20 to 20,000 Hz, more complete than conventional audiology. |
