My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
With all due respect, I'm not questioning if the Chord Dave is good or not. You say, reviewers are full of it, because you have a different opinion, but I caution readers of this thread or any thread not to take opinions as fact. You for all intents and purposes have become a reviewer and it seems that "some" are looking for you to validate their purchase. I'm an advocate of using one's own ears to validate if a purchase is worth it.
@whitecamaross , I would be curious to hear about your experience with the Capri S2. It was recommended to me over the Parasound JC-2. I felt that strange, since I have the Parasound A21 amp, and felt that a preamp from the same company would "gel" better in the system. Have you tried any TVC in your system? Just curious.
ricred:. The chord dave is great, don’t get me wrong. The truth is that the vast majority of the people who read this would probably be floored by it if they brought it home. What many of you have to remember is that my experience is vast and right now i am playing with ultra high end amps so in my situation the chord dave is good and not OMG ITS THE BEST THING I HAVE HEARD. However, some of you with less expensive sources, speakers, amps, preamps, etc might be floored by what it can do. I actually feel like unpacking the ps audio direct stream and do a shoot out against the chord dave. Lastly, i will be getting the rowland capri s2 preamp next week and will be trying to see if it can beat my luxman 900u preamp. If it does then i am keeping it and the luxman will be sold. Right now, i am on the Jeff Rowland bandwagon. Oh, and i wanted to add one thing.. i have an arcam avr850 receiver which i unpacked and used with my chord dave dac and man that receiver sounds amazing. I drove my wilson’s hard and that receiver did not break a sweat. i am very impressed by that receiver and it had been YEARS since i had listened to one. It actually made me question the rest of my set up. Very good piece indeed.
Limniscate: i got hiss as well, but my ps audio p20 helped to lessen that hissing. That said, the hissing you are referring to is apparent only if i have my ear close to the tweeter. It is not like i can hear it from my listening position so we are somewhat nit picking here. The transformer hum again is pretty normal because this amp uses big transformers. Both of my hegels had a little hum, but again you have to kneel down and put your ear close to the amp. Transformer hum is not abnormal unless you are hearing it from your listening position. As far as your veritas being dead quite, yes they are because they are class d and it is a different design. I also do not get any hiss from my former class d amps. Class d in general is quieter than class ab. At least you are not getting humming though the hegels. I had humming through the speakers at one point, but i found out what it was.
I told you I would be surprised if you liked the Jeff Rowland, but it seems like you do. Our opinions differ on the Chord Dave. I've tried several USB cables and there was a difference that was easily heard. As a matter of fact, because I recently replaced all of my Wireworld cables with Audioquest, I actually sold my Wireworld Platinum USB and purchased Audioquest's Diamond USB cable. The Diamond just didn't work in my system. Luckily I was able to return the Diamond and I purchased another Wireworld Platinum. Maybe the combination of the Chord Dave and my Antipodes music server is more sensitive to different USB cables. I've tried the Dave direct and hated it. It's just a reminder for everyone not to doubt what they hear with their own ears. All of our systems are different and how a component interfaces with another can be the difference between musical bliss and unhappiness.
I understand that tube hiss is normally but was wondering how the Hegel compares to other amps in terms of hiss and noise in your experience. Furthermore, I read that the unit itself is dead quiet, but it's no quieter than my Sanders Magtech. There's a slight bit of transformer hum if you put your ear close to the amp, which isn't that big of a deal, but not what I was expecting based on what I've read.
The Merrill Veritas are dead silent and had no tube hiss.
And of course I will try the Hegel in balanced mode. I'm picking up some cables tomorrow.
I suspect the Rowland amps do about 60% of the magic here. Everything seems to sound very good through them. Eve a crappy source like pandora sounds like I’ve never heard it. Yes im using pandora to break in the equipment when I’m away.
The OP uses Wilson speakers (happily) so OTL amplifiers wouldn’t be an ideal pairing. I don’t find speaker sensitivity the limiting factor but rather speaker load impedance characteristics in regard to OTL compatibility. Charles
Chord dave is immune to source noise, this what the designer Rob watt said. some people claim some difference but in headphone and with very very critical listening and the difference is very minor. You better try some headphone to hear more into the DAC ;)
I would go with OTL amps and be done with it (except for tube changes). I had a massive s-state amp and the biggest subwoofer in town. Out they went. Have never looked back. But to get the best from OTL you need sensitive speakers.
You need to forget rca through Hegel. I told you this before. Hegel sounds best through balanced inputs. I got hiss which is normal.
Update: I bought the bluesound vault 2 and connected it via optical to my chord Dave dac. I also have the chord Dave dac connected to my laptop via usb and I’m now using the platinum usb cable. I don’t really hear much of a difference between the bluesound playing tidal and feeding it to the dac or the laptop feeding it to the dac via usb using that expensive usb cable. If there’s any difference then I’d have to find a song that shows me that because I’ve tried 30 or more songs and I can’t hear anything difference between using usb with an expensive usb cable or a cheap monster optical cable coming from the bluesound vault 2. Hmm. This is quite shocking.
@whitecamaross How much tube hiss did you get through your Hegel with the Ref10? I'm getting a lot more with my Hegel and Ref6 than my Sanders and Ref6. However, I'm using single-ended, and ARC recommends at least 20kohms input impedance for the power amp. I need to get a set of balanced interconnects. Does the input impedance affect the amount of tube hiss with no music playing?
Maybe the cardas cable will open up over time. Right now I felt that the cheaper cable I was using gave the amps more air and detail. I have not tried my silver 7 wireworld yet.
Hi greginnh, I have heard that K-01X does not have an attenuator/volume control on its analog outputs. And so it cannot drive an amplifier directly, but a preamplifier is always required... Is this correct?
W100i: funny that you say that but I tried what you said and I felt the chord Dave sounded damn good as a preamp in my system. I’d be happy using it as a preamp.
Hello Whitecamaross, even though your Cardas Clear speaker wires are used, they likely require some 4 days of playing music to return to full bloom and for the treble to open up.
Just bear in mind that Clear is not the top of the line Cardas speaker wire... Clear Beyond is.... Alstewart can tell you about the audible difference between the two.
I am enjoying this thread alot and thanks for your efforts to share your experience.
I have one comment about getting the best out of Chord Dave, it should be connected directly to an amp other wise the difference will be not high as the preamp will color and distorte the signle.
last thing, did you tried Musical Fidelity M8-700/500s ?
You should let the amp settle in completely and get used to it's signature first before adding cables and power cords. Maybe 1 week of listening and being powered on 24/7.
Now you're not going to be able to assess how the cables are adding to the mix vs the 925's re-breaking in.
I know it's tough with new toys but slowing down a little will help with the accuracy of your evaluations. 👍
@whitecamaross - When using the XLR outputs from your Luxman C-900u with the Rowland amps simply activate the BAL INVERT function on the Luxman's remote. The corresponding indicator will light on the C-900u and in that setting its XLR input & output polarity will match that of the Rowland so they will maintain absolute phase. In its default setting the C-900u has its XLR connections wired with opposite polarity than the Rowland does, but the BAL INVERT function corrects that. Hope that helps and enjoy the tunes!
FYI - This continues to be of my two favorite threads on the 'Gon. I'm here every day to read whitecamaross' updates.
I'm very intrigued by the fact that two of the amps that Mr. WC has owned that he loved so much are Class D. For me, I don't care what Class an amp is, I just care about the sound. I would like that said amp runs cool and that it sounds it's best without a two-hour warm up. That being said, I've heard a lot of systems in the last five years, both tube and SS, and the one that has my ear now and will eventually be in the house is powered by Class D. This system just sounds so real without being dry or fatiguing in anyway. Class D done right, as in really any other class of amp, just kills it. Once I work everything out and get the system setup here at home I will disclose more and also discuss my dealer, whom has literally been the most helpful and patient dealer I've ever dealt with.
Lest you think I'm just caught up in a certain class of amplification, I look most to equipment matching/synergy with the speaker you choose to use. Without this, you'll never hear the best a system can do.
Whitecamorss, thanks again for such a great thread. I'll be back tomorrow for more.........
The only thing I need to figure out is the setting on the back of the amps for the phase. Not sure what luxman pre is for xlr so that I can match it to the Rowland.
Limiscate: the Hegel should be left on... it does not consume a ton of power just left on unlike pass labs amps. It also does not run hot at all. I hope you like it’s muscular presentation.
Hello Whitecamaross... And the funny thing is that, with your M925 monos, you haven't heard anything yet... Just let 'em steep for a spell until they reach full bloom *Grins!*
And then give them both the gift of Cardas Clear Beyond XL power cords.... Wait for few more days while the Cardas bloom and stabilize, and hold on to your seat... I am afraid that your musical intoxication will get a lot worse than what you are experiencing now.
The rest of my solid state amps sound like a music video from the 80s sounds on YouTube... the Rowland’s 925s are like listening in 4k and the other amps a good 1080p signal. I left them playing music while I’m out all day today and will return tonight with cardas clear audio speaker cables. I’ve yet to use the ref10 but the luxman seems to have tremendous synergy with the Rowland amps. I also don’t really think it’s smart for me to use a tube pre when the amps sound like tubes already. I want to slowly enjoy this time around. I don’t want to rush through my music even though I listened to 5 hours of music last night. I keep digging old music just to see what things I’ve missed before in all of the music I thought I knew. I will say to you that the Rowland’s make you hear your music in a way that you haven’t before which is with more detail, space and oh the instrument separation is just crazy... they are like the luxman set up on steroids... very similar with tremendous finesse
I have owned the JR Continuum S2 integrated. It provides the Rowland house sound and pushes considerable power. IMO It is a great way to obtain the Rowland sound without breaking the bank. BTW I'm not saying $9.5K isn't a lot of money. It is, period. @whitecamaross I run a full Cardas loom of PCs and balanced ICs with my Rowland set up. I highly recommend this path. Importantly, there is a discernible difference between the Clear line and the Clear Beyond line. If you can lay your hands on CB cable you will be rewarded. I also changed out CCB PCs for CCB XL PCs on my 925s. There was a positive improvement in resolution, but IMO didn't justify the price differential between CCB and CCB XL enough for me to consider changing out the whole loom. I have communicated with another Cardas CB owner who changed out his whole PC loom from CBs to CB XLs. He heard an uptick in resolution too, but not a dramatic difference between CCB PCs and CCB XL PCs.
Yes, M925 is an expensive amp. Yet, the entry point to the Rowland house sound is quite reasonable a smidjin below $3K for the M125 bridgeable amp, $6K range for the new M535 bridgeable, and $9.5K for the Continuum S2 integrated.
I might be evaluating M535 before long, and I will post my observations to Audiogon.
You think Gryphon is expensive? Compared to what? The OP is playing with Rowland 925's at the moment and the Retail on those is 60K....you can buy almost 4 Gryphon Diablo 300's for that amount!!! You might want to check out the Steve Hoffman Forum to get opinions on gear for people on a limited budget. Hardly anybody on that page has reference gear.
OP...Surprised you started using the LUX Pre instead of the REF 10. Im sure you will swap at some point. Dont forget to try out the DAG 400's and compare to the 925's. At least those 2 would be a fair fight in the 60K Range. Cant bash Hegel, Luxman etc who are in the $10K-15K range going up against a 60K monster. The Rowland should blow them away at that price point.
Hello WhiteCameraSS.... Yes, intoxicating is the operative word when it comes to the Rowland M925 amps, even when fed through their stock power cords, isn't it?!
Just a reminder that if the amps have been in transit for several days, and have been stone cold for a few weeks/months before that, it is highly likely that you haven't heard anything yet from them... If you feel somewhat intoxicated already, you might be in danger of a little overdosing by the time rebreak-in is complete *Grins!*
... Be patient, and give them a good couple weeks of settling in with 24/7 operation before doing anything else with them, such as upgrading from their stock PCs to a loom of Cardas.
Concerning Cardas PCs, yes, there is profound synergy between Rowland electronics and Cardas cables. I have just installed a complete loom of Cardas cables in my system... Including the newest statement Clear Beyond XL PCs on Rowland M925 monos, Rowland Aeris DAC + PSU, and Esoteric X-01 CDp... Clear Reflection XLR and speaker wires, and Clear SPDIF coax. After a mere 48 hours of crunching signals, The result is quite simply STUNNING! I will be posting a detailed review very soon.
Hi guys, i have not connected the platinum usb, or the wireworld silver 7 speaker cables or even using upgraded power cords and yet it’s intoxicating how good they sound. I want to enjoy it as what they are now and then bring cardas clear audio speaker cables since it’s what matches very good with Rowland, then use the platinum 7 usb cable, then the luxman d08u arrives next week and then the Rowland Capri s2 preamp the week after that. A lot of more tweaks I have in mind for this. I just want to enjoy it as it is right this second. Lastly, I had a bit of bass boominess with the Wilsons and Hegel, simaudio and with the Rowland’s that has now vanished. Sounds as if I ran room correction and fixed the bass. Very incredible.
Well , looking at the price of a pair of 925s used , I would certainly hope they are as outstanding as you say. Most of us working class folks ,would never be able to afford these.
I had an opportunity a few years ago to hear the Pass Labs XS 300/XS preamplifier driving the Marten Coltrane Supreme speakers. Impressive in an audiophile Hifi sort of way. I'm familiar with the Rowland "house sound". If the 925 is the ultimate example of this sound I'd personally choose the Luxman/Rowland combination.
Obviously we all appreciate it's a matter of individual taste between two highly regarded choices. In my opinion I believe that the Luxman/Rowland will be more natural sounding and emotionally/musically involving (higher capacity to keep one deeply and fully engaged in the in the music). Whitecamaross it will be interesting to read your listening impressions and which component combination you prefer. Charles
Your exuberance for the Rowland’s is admirable, but your long history of churning what was so recently the “best thing ever” tells me they’ll be traded out for something else in a few weeks. Hope to be proven wrong though. I’ll like to see you settle down with a reference for awhile to get the true measure of an amp over a longer term in your system.
307am and i am just going to bed... couldn’t get off the couch. I have a lot to share tomorrow when I get up. Outstanding set of amps. I was going to bring a pair of 160.8s with the xs preamp and I honestly don’t think it will beat the luxman/Rowland combo.
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