Curious about the perception between the new Magicos and the Persona 9H. Have a new pair of the latter and am impressed as they break in, but limited experience with this type of speaker. Last one was Magnepan 3.7's..the intensity and power is another animal entirely....Bass is incredible tho....
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
McIntosh MC2301 vs mc601: 1. 2301 is far more detailed 2. 2301 has mids that the mc601 tried to imitate but never duplicate. 3. 2301 has a larger soundstage with more air around instruments 4. 2301 has you engaged. 5. 601 has nothing on the mc2301 6. Was it a coincidence they haven’t replaced the 2301? Nope. i don’t even need to hear the 1.2kw. I had those long enough to say that they lose to the 2301. In my opinion, without taking the 2.0kw into account, the 2301 is THE BEST AMP from McIntosh. |
Rel feels more musical based on what I heard. That said, the only reason WHY I was (not anymore) going to get a f212 is because the same person who sold me the 2301s was going to sell me his at a great deal and he was just going to bring it with him. A lot of times I try stuff again because I come up on deals. THIS IS HOW I ENDED UP WITH 2301s yet again. I wasn’t looking for them. Just like if someone called me right now and gave me a crazy deal on a pair of krell 900e. Am I looking for them ? Hell no. Would I buy a pair if a deal came to me ? Hell yes. My wants are momentum 400s. Possibly a pair of 900u Monos again. THOSE ARE what I desire now. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I CANT BUY ANYTHING ELSE THAT COMES MY WAY AT A GOOD DEAL. In this particular case, I had to take 3 mc2301s in order to get a deal. What the hell do I need 3 for ? Well I don’t need 3 but it’s what the deal was so I have one sitting in the corner looking all pretty. Who knows, Maybe I list it. |
WCSS says...."I am also thinking of using a single JL audio f212 right in the middle of both speakers for added mid bass." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is my last attempt, as to bring you your best sound possible with a REL recommendation for your listening room."---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 REL S5s running in REAL STEREO ($5,200 total) on the inside of each speaker will give you the subtle synergy with your speakers that JL audio never could. JL audio is good for home theater systems and bass heads. It just can’t get you the synergy with your speaker that REL can. It really, I feel is not just my opinion, it’s reality. JL Audio subs don’t a Neutrik connector that allows the leads to go to the amplifier’s speaker outputs. PS Audio’s owner has some YouTube videos, and one is about subs. I just laughed so hard when he mentioned the best way to connect subwoofers is to the speaker outputs, and there better be 2 subwoofers. He says REL in the video with a grin. RELs blend to the speaker’s attributes and enhance. Does JL Audio Fathoms shake the paint off the walls? Heck Yea. The RELs have a 12" carbon fiber passive radiator that shoots downward, and when some serious power is applied to the REL sub... it turns into the equivalent of 16", and comes literally out of the closet and plays ball with thunderous bass. But there is a subtle "kitty cat" there in the REL that doesn’t overpower the speakers. The person in Las Vegas that I bought my Martin Logan Montis from had both JLs and RELs (2 each) of subs in his living room. He’s has the same story that all people I have come across... REL is better for 2 channel sound and JLs better for home theater. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Golden Rule: you have to use 2 subs for 2 channel sound, regardless of brand, to have the proper sound reproduction. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you plan on using the subs for home theater also, then JL audio will have so much more impact (but that’s home theater). You could go to the REL Reference Series subs. They are even adjustable from the listening chair with a manly remote control. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Suncoast Audio down near you had that DEMO with the high end Magicos, Soulution power, 2 REL Reference subs a while ago.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m just having a hard time understanding why all your contacts would recommend the overbearing JL Audio sub. It’s like you’re scared to go out with the perfect girl. Ah, Humbug. |
I am losing track: Have you guys mentioned this speaker: Paradigm Persona 9H? Tremendous reviews, especially from the Tone Audio article I pasted. Very interesting read. I really can relate to Jeff Dorgay’s reviews. He also loves the "car comparisons" to audio stuff.. much like WC. Please give it a read if you can and post your comments. Maybe some of you have heard this already? thanks mike https://www.tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_085.pdf |
I’m another Pass Labs convert having acquired a 150.8 to drive a pair of Thiel 2.4s which are notoriously difficult to drive WELL. Alot of Thiel owners went with the previous general of Bel Canto Class D stuff specifically the Ref 1000 mk2 monos which do have a special affinity with Thiels but the Pass is just incredible. The only possible weakness is the amp is a little forward in the mid-bass lower midrange but still full of detail and there’s a palpability in the sound that’s going to remind you of good ARC tube gear. Kent at Pass steered me away from the XA mono series and into the regular X series for my particular speakers even though I was ready to spend much much more money. It was a good decision. The X series is better suited to some speakers including for example the Salon 2s which are said to do better on the X series than with the XA. I’m using Aesthetix on the front end with their Janus although if you don’t run a table you can use the Calypso which is simply stunning gear and is largely forgotten because its not a new design. Its still awesome awesome stuff and a great combination. PS Audio directstream is the DAC and I think I like using the direcstream's usb input with a microrendu as my roon endpoint rather than using the Bridge II. I think the sound is a smidge better using the microrendu (with linear power supply). |
By themselves, sockets in 20A outlets might yield marginally better electric contacts with the AC connectors on cables. However, this is not the main benefit... Typically, 20A outlets are installed together with dedicated electric lines... Which means that the electric line from the 20A circuit breaker is not shared with any other outlet.... Hence a component connected to a dedicated 20A outlet will not be subected to pollution from any electric device connected to that breaker, nor from any grundge that could theoretically be picked up from unused outlets on the circuit. Reality or placebo effect? I do not know, but empirically, I do prefer the sound of my system now that I am using three didicated outlets for it, vs one dedicated and one shared outlet in my old home. G.
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WC, I suggest you save your money and don't bother with the Mac2301. You are in the upper echelon of refinement with your Magico, Pass, possible D'ag Progressions (somewhat reasonable price, possibly more advanced thinking than the Momentums), and of course, the Lux M900u. Pass is a more refined version of Mac, if you like sweet and rolled off highs and somewhat loose bass. I haven't heard Pass or Mac amps at home, but years ago I A/B'ed my old excellent Belles OCM 200 with a powerful Mac amp in my friend's Soundlab system. The Mac was big and round, but the Belles killed it for clarity. At home, I A/B'ed the Pass XP15 phono stage with my excellent Belles phono stage. Compared to the sparkling clear and extended Belles, the Pass was sweet but markedly rolled off, with no snap on violins and muddy plucks of the harp. By the way, the newest Belles amps are rolled off and markedly inferior in clarity to my 1995 Belles OCM 200 which still sounds good. While I can't speak for the latest Pass amps, it is generally true that there is a sound philosophy from a designer throughout most of his products--Pass admits that he doesn't go for technical accuracy but believes that audiophiles should be "happy." Happiness to the typical audiophile means the rolled off sound in mid hall. Believe me, the mid hall listener is missing most of the information content that the much closer microphones are picking up. Anyone is entitled not to like "too much treble", find happiness in the rolled off sound of mid hall, but it is not high fidelity to what is on the recording. The Magicos are telling the truth by revealing the highs on recordings, so in the name of true high fidelity they should be lived with and respected/accepted for the truth tellers they are. I still predict that the Lux M900u is the best amp out there for you. Wait till you hear their clarity with the Magico! I don't know techno_dude, but I would take his offer of trade for your Gryphon. I'm confident he would trust you if he sent you his Lux first. Then you could A/B the Lux (with your preamp) and the Gryphon. If you prefer the Lux, you just send him his Gryphon. If not, you send back the Lux, with maybe a small fee for the privilege of the A/B. I like to do business this way out of respect for the risks to the seller and his lost time. One other thing. Many amps clip gracefully so that the clipped sound peaks don't reveal any obvious distortion. This can make it appear that the amp is very powerful, but unfortunately it means that frequent clipping is destroying the speakers. My little Bryston 2.5 clips on big peaks, and appears to be powerful, but the red flashing clipping lights tell me the truth. I don't know if the Pass 200.5 has clipping lights, but also its rolled off highs let someone push the volume higher with less obvious stress. You have noted this effect in reverse with the extended highs of the ATI Signature 6005. Pushing the volume on the ATI revealed the highs that you didn't like at that time, forcing you to keep the volume lower. But remember that live music has lots of highs, but the natural modest live volume levels prevents irritation. Nobody wants to listen to live music blasting in your face, such as a trumpeter pointing his bell at you from 5 feet away. So if anyone gets irritated by highs in his system, he is probably listening at unnaturally high volumes. |
Can someone explain to me why you think a 20A outlet will sound better than a 15A. There is no logic behind that statement . If you were using a 15a outlet and not tripping the breaker, why the need for 20A outlets ? What is different about them that will make them sound better than a 15. I realize that they can handle 5 more amps of current , but if you are not using more than 15 amps,then tell me what makes them sound better. |
On a personal note, I would love to see you try the 2301s again. I own a pair, and have them paired with the C-1100 pre, and Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers. I also just picked up a pair of Salon 2s, that I have yet to hook up. I know the 2301s will most likely not be enough for the Salons, but I wanted to try them, and I have a pair of JC-1s if I need more power. I don't think I could live with the JC-1s on a full time basis, after hearing the magic that the 2301s bring to the table, but maybe bi-amp, tubes on top, and 601s on bottom? BTW, thanks for sharing your adventures! This has been a very fun thread! |
Sorry guys. I didn't want to start a war about what is proper sound. Bass slam to me is bass that is not muddy or lacking in the proper decibel level relative to the rest of the system. When I can sit and enjoy music digitally, I want to enjoy the black backgrounds of it, along with a proper DAC that doesn't fatigue. I dislike speakers that put out too much treble for my ears. What some call clarity, I call annoying. I find many amplifiers cannot produce the proper bass. It's not the level of bass, it's the real reproduction of it, and the ability to hear the proper decay time. I hope that clears up what I mean about slam. A lot of speakers don't have the proper bass levels. Many are -3db. That's why I like the REL subs. Connected directly to the amplifier speaker outputs, the RELs add the character of the amplifier and they are lightning fast in response.They are meant to be adjusted to levels that are enhancing your speaker, even the midrange. Not throwing a whole bunch of bass that doesn't belong. I wouldn't have wrote this RANT if I didn't feel that some of you would really benefit from a pair of RELs with your existing system. They are very different than any other Sub system out there. I'm going radio silent about the D'ags and the RELs now. WCSS, it's awesome to read about your adventures. Now that you have installed (2) 20amp lines, the sound can only get better from here. |
Here are a couple of things guys: 1. I can’t speak about dag amps. I respect his work and what’s he’s done and I honestly don’t think the momentum amps are laid back. 2. My pass 200.8s will have less power on paper than the 601s but would you Believe me if I told you the 200.5s had a massive amount of power when I owned them ? They sounded like 700 watt per channel class ab amps in terms of loudness. i have a chance to get a couple of mc2301 McIntosh amps locally. I wasn’t looking for more McIntosh but I sold my 601s already and it will be about 2 weeks before I see my 200.8s so I am now contemplating a pair of mc2301s that are local to me. Yes this is half the power of the 601s but I recall being very impressed by the 2301s when I owned them. The only thing I thought was not too good was the bottom end. It was somewhat loose. Decisions decisions... should I get the 2301s... or should I just hold off until the 200.8s arrive... |
Hi guys, @viber6 FYI. In response to your post above re. "75dB" WC stated what's copied directly above (4/13/18) when I questioned his evaluation of amps at high volumes, which he also stated was generally above 90dB. Here is more from the same post: That said, loudness is subjective. What maybe be loud for you maybe not be loud for me or anyone else. When I said <90db, that is low to low-moderate to me. If what is considered low volume is <=80db then I’d buy headphones if I listened at that level all the time. For me it makes no sense to have a system and listen to it at <80db. That’s crazy and a waste of money. You’re better off with high quality headphones. He also said the following: Most amps fall apart or lose their magic at low listening volumes [except the Bel Canto Black System, at that point in time] |
minorl, I love the way you expressed the differences between live and reproduced music. Totally correct. I believe that a system must be played at the volume levels matching live. For most music of all genres, it is 70-80 dB average, with occasional peaks much higher. A guitar that is not being smashed, an interpretive singer who is not screaming, a bass player providing plucked accompaniment or a melodic line, even a relatively louder trumpeter playing a tune--all these are at fairly modest volume levels. Now, assume you are listening to a perfect fidelity dream system (in my fantasies, say, a full range plasma massless driver) at average level of 75 dB to match the live level of that particular piece. If you then turn the volume up 6 dB to excite yourself, that is not high fidelity--it is just plain distortion of the real thing. The sound will be bloated and less natural. |
riaa_award, Cut your disrespectful crapola. My live music background and experience dwarfs that of most people on this forum. When I tell you that most audiophile systems are veiled and dark compared to the snap and precision of the real thing, RESPECT THAT STATEMENT. I have never personally had any D'ag (not Krell) in my home for audition, but I am just telling you that the salesman said that by comparison with Spectral, D'ag is RELATIVELY dark. When he listened to my Bryston that I brought in, he said that from his experience with D'ag in his store, D'ag was AGAIN RELATIVELY dark. That doesn't mean that D'ag is absolutely dark, and in comparison with lots of other gear of less resolution, those other gear would be darker. I and many people define "dark" as being rolled off in the highs so that the sound is weighted more toward the lower freq. It is often associated with loss of information and clarity. The way WC described the sound of the Lux M900u and from Doug Schneider's review saying that its highs had clarity beyond belief, my guess is that D'ag will be darker than the Lux. |
I agree. The reproduced music should be an accurate representation of the recorded music. Bass slam or whatever one calls it is fun, but may not be accurate. the real question (to me) should be, does the system reproduce the recorded music accurately? In the recording studios or even live, is the bass emphasized as much as you hear it sometimes in audio systems? I don't think so. First thing I do is play music at a level that I can listen to comfortably. Then I insert a test CD and play pink noise and use an app like audiotools (free) and look at the frequency response at ear level in my room. Then you can see the peaks and dips that should not be there. Correct that, then listen again. If the bass response is wayyyyy too high, you then know that the system or a component in the system is reproducing bass response out of proportion and it is not accurate. Anyway, just my take. Still enjoying the ride. But, as I said, the question should be, is the sound accurate first? enjoy |
D’ag Progression Monos are more powerful and larger than the Momentums. 1,000 watts/ch at 4 ohms and $38,000.00 new. If WCSS can get a 25% discount or better for a pair (around $27,000), that would make the D’ag Progressions not such a bad move. D’ag is going to sound different than Nelson Pass. For the better IMHO. The Progressions have reviewed quite well as having a slight warmth over the side of neutral over at Stereophile. Saying that he liked them better than other amps is an understatement. Many others concur that the Progressions are an upgrade from what other amps they had at the time to compare. Someone mentioned above about sounding Dark. Not a chance. |
techno_dude, your trade would probably benefit WC. If your goal is merely to simplify your system and get some money for the Mac preamp, power chord and interconnects, that is fine for you, although I think WC would get the benefit in terms of the best sound, although I have not heard either the Gryphon or the Lux. I did have the Lux M600A at home for a month and was impressed by it. Did you personally compare the M900u to the M600A for sound quality at the lower power levels of the M600A? |
WC, I would add that overall perspective should be a guide. The most important attribute of reproduction of any type of music is midrange accuracy, in which the ML CLX is near SOTA. You could spend a million bucks for the best amp to drive the Magico, but you will still not get the midrange accuracy of the CLX driven by any decent cheap amp. Of course, the Magico beats the CLX in imaging focus, bass, dynamics and maybe high freq. We each make our choice based on aspects of sound that we personally value above other aspects, but it is all a compromise in one way or another. Even a billionaire with money to burn cannot have perfection in everything. Get an amp where most of the money is spent on the electronics rather than cosmetics to impress the neighborhood. Get value in everything you do. I knew a very wealthy woman who didn't want to be charged incorrectly at the supermarket. She could afford to be cheated, but her moral compass was more important than anything, so she spent extra time in correcting the error. |
WC, how about I trade you my M900u for your Diablo 300. I always wanted to try Gryphon. Do you think The Gryphon integrated would be better than my Mac C47/ Lux M900u combo ? ( I could resale my pre, associated power chord and interconnects....simplify my system). What you guys think, bad or good move ? |
08-18-2018 9:49pmI must have blasted my magico today to beyond concert levels and these speakers remained composed. Not an ounce of compression. I’m very impressed. WC, I can no longer do the math ( I was able to at one point ), but at these concert hall levels, what do you think the Macs were putting out ? The Pass, into a 4 ohm load, does put out more than into an 8 ohm load, but it still would not approach the Macs, imo. At these volume levels, you do need horns ( in your next room ). You also stated you could live with the Sopras if not for the Magicos ( I doubt that ). Like I said a few times on your thread here, I do not agree with everything you say or do, but, I appreciate you, and I am completely behind you on your journey ( my journey has ended, as I am quite happy with my system ). Always, with support, MrD. Enjoy ! |
WC, it might be difficult for you to make assessments because there have been major upgrades to your setup, like moving targets. First, get your reference sound from the 20A outlets, Magicos, Mac 601. Since the purity of your sound with other speakers was best with the Lux M900u, it is unfortunate that you got rid of the Simaudio which you say is 2nd best in terms of purity/detail. The Pass will not be as powerful as the Mac 601 as I and others have opined. Will the Pass be as pure/detailed as the Simaudio? Probably not, but you will have the best guess, but won't have the opportunity of an A/B, only just go on your memory. D'ag is very expensive for what it is, a lot of money and weight going for audio jewelry and heavy casework, and I am not sure the M400 will merit $15K upgrade from the M300. When I visited a dealer in NY a few years ago, one salesman said the Momentum sound was dark and fat, but far inferior to Spectral in detail, accuracy, etc. Even the Parasound JC1 was respectable by comparison to the Momentum according to him, although I did not personally do the A/B since I didn't want to spend the money. Meanwhile, if you want to get an idea of the D'ag sound, you might consider the more industrial looking Master Classic 2 stereo available on A-gon for "only" 7 or $8K. Don't blow a lot of money on hyper expensive D'ag, especially since the resale value isn't so good. I still say 1 or 2 Lux M900u will probably give you more of what you want compared to anything else, at a reasonable price. The accuracy of the Lux combined with the accuracy of Magico, very tempting. |
Those momentums are Too high in price... the upgrade to m400 costs 15k and I’m not going to do that. Anyhow guys, I got 20a outlets installed and they are running. I will get outlets down the road but for now I need to evaluate my set up with the 20a outlets and see if I can hear any real difference. The 200.8 will hopefully hit my door by memorial weekend. I have massive expectations for them since they will have dedicated 20a outlets. I don’t want any bs or excuses. They either impress me or they will fail to do so. The xs150s were indeed amazing when I had them and they weren’t connected to 20a outlets. I like having these power hungry magicos in a way. They are like a m1 tank. You can’t strap on a weak engine to something like it. No weak engine will get that tank in motion. Lastly, as I stated before: the magico will force you to go big or go home in terms of amplification. There’s no way to beat around the bush with them. |