trolls thrive on making comments that are repugnant and utterly disrespectful.
i feel especially bad for the OP.
i feel especially bad for the OP.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
techno, although I do not agree with everything viber speaks, I do not see him and you on the same side of things at all. You are all by yourself, as I see it, and personally, do not understand your criticisms and attitudes about anything you have said. Spending big money on equipment does not make one an expert, as you have proven. I have little respect for you when it comes to high end audio, after your last several posts. I have respect for viber. Wake up buddy ! Enjoy! MrD. |
It seems only Viber and I understand common sense these days... Some people have the truth in front of them but just live in denial, because of prestige brand names most of the time. They forget it’s only electronics and plain science inside those shiny costly boxes... Common sense: - The Neos come with rolled off HF. - The Neos have unacceptable cheap straps for jumpers. - Dag integrated and amps are somewhat rolled off and overrated. - It’s about synergy, not price tags. - I have seen millionaires on youtube destroy their brand new 150k car because of less trouble the Neos flagship panels are giving WC... |
@WCSS Certainly not overlooking Block Audio monos but thinking of future amps to try. I really enjoyed my time with the Plinius SA 301mk2. It was a slightly forward sounding amp with a rich midrange, sparkling highs and a very deep powerful bass. Have you thought about the Plinius Reference A-300? Are they hard to find on the used market? Don't think they would be difficult to move when you are ready to sell it. |
WC, Although I agree that the Neo deserves the best, I believe that the Dag 400 is a backward move. It might be better than the power amp section of the Dag integrated, but not to the extent that the Plinius is. The Dag 400 will have more power obviously, but it will probably have similar house sound as the integrated, whereas the Plinius really impressed you with its sparkle and clarity. I doubt that the Dag 400 will have that sparkle. I understand your desire for more power, so I recommend the newest Emotiva DR reference at 550W into 8, 800 into 4. It doesn't double into half the load the way Dag does, but it will have more power than the Plinius. I heard the XPA 2 gen 3 for a 30 day trial, and it was powerful, accurate and even a little sweet. It rates 300W into 8, 550 into 4, 800 into 2 (although recently they have not revealed the 2 ohm figures). My guess is that either Emotiva would be even more sparkly than the Plinius, as many listeners have still described the Plinius as warm. Grey9hound described Emotiva XPA gen 2 as bright when pushed, although thezaks said that the gen 3 is different from the gen 2. But since your Neo is somewhat rolled off in HF compared to the 15A and certainly compared to your Magico, I believe you will really like the Neo/Emotiva, and still find the Neo/Dag 400 somewhat rolled off. Emotiva DR retails for $1600, XPA 2 gen 3 for $1000 with that no-risk 30 day trial from the company. After you buy and sell the Dag 400 you will take a loss greater than that. Since your money is limited, I can see you selling the Dag integrated to get the 400. But then you would be losing the valuable tone control of the integrated. I can see the Dag integrated with the +4 treble boost being more sparkly than the ARC Ref 10 with the Dag 400, and the Ref 10 plus Plinius beats even the Dag integrated. I can see the Ref 10 plus either Emotiva beating anything you will try, for sparkle and most other qualities. Why don't you at least hold off on the Dag 400 until you try the Block which is coming very soon. I will hold back my comments on the Block until you listen to it. RIAA, I agree that the Mac preamp is probably the weak link for techno_dude, although the Lux preamp with its tone controls coupled to the M900u is likely dynamite in most ways. If techno's finances are tight, then I would get the Rane EQ to plug into the Lux M900u. There will be 6 dB gain in the balanced outputs of the Rane, probably enough gain as strictly a line stage, and a much more flexible EQ than the Lux preamp tone controls. If EQ is not used, then the Luminous passive preamp is the way to go for highest transparency, but there is no gain with the Luminous and techno appreciates the benefit of EQ, so I think the Rane ME 60 is the best option for him. |
Techno: the way I see it, you are beginning to give your opinion on gear you probably haven’t even seen in real life.... google images doesn’t help anyone get an idea of how it sounds. Good things are coming and yes, I may be close to striking a deal on Dag 400 momentums pretty soon. To your point, 80k speakers and now I gotta bring gear that it is indeed up to the same level of the speaker. Did you forget my car analogy? Do you think if you could buy dale Earnhardt’s race car for 3-5 million dollars that you can just hop in it and take it Daytona and you can take those curves at 200 mph only because you bought a car that is a race car so you gotta be able to go 200 mph too by putting your helmet, suit and harness and putting the pedal to the metal ? Or would also say what’s the point of paying 3-5 million and having to do so much work to get the car to go 200 mph? You would be a perfect candidate to own a Nissan GT-R with the sequential transmission where all you need to do is step on the gas and the car goes fast, but you would be hating a Dodge Viper ACR because there’s no AC, runs hot inside, and it feels like a race car which means you gotta be one hell of a driver to really maximize its performance or else you’d end up like Paul walker (rip). I prefer the vehicle that idles rough and where you feel the hood shake. That vehicle that has crazy potential to be fast if you have the patience to learn it. There is no better reward than to buy something that you know it is one hell of a component but now you need to learn how to make it give you what it’s got. Once you reach nirvana, you will look back and not want to go there again. |
I do prefer an upfront reveling presentation. Full , quick and powerful , no veiling, no brightness but clear highs. Real , forceful and organic. Who wants a laidback veiled sound. Who wants sota 80k speakers that needs so much tweeking to sound optimal... Original strap jumpers, not doing it. 45k brute force DAG integrated, not doing it. Next is calling a priest to bless the panel. Maybe even the holy spirit can’t make those sing. |
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klh007, I just read the Mapleshade link, thanks. I am glad the author hears what I do, and also has more technical background than me to make products that deliver the maximum information. Which model have you used? Did you compare to high gauge zip cord? I just have 1 difference of opinion with him. Obviously I have not heard his line of wires, but as with many writers, I think they are on the wrong track by saying that treble needs to be tamed. Some people openly admit that they like laid back sound, but anyone with close up live experience would hear the ridiculous amount of veiling and rolloff in most systems compared to close live music. Any attempt to roll off HF will certainly result in "prettier" sound, but some information is subtracted even if you like the laid back sound and want to justify how it is just as detailed merely because you are love smitten. So there is a little paradox with his presentation. On the one hand, he rightly criticizes the fat veiled sound of most audiophile speaker wires, but then on the other hand he wants to tame the treble with the PLUS feature. My personal preference would be to try the Double Helix plain 8 feet pair at $365, although I am eager to hear about your findings. |
I have never spent much on speaker cables, as I have on ics and pcs. After trying many higher end speaker cables in my system, I never felt it was worth the additional monies to what I could buy, by the foot / meter and make myself. viber, the term zip has a specific meaning ( look it up on Wikipedia ), and it does come in heavier gauge such as 14, 12 and 10 gauge. My table and floor lamps are wired with zip cord, although, what if I changed to a 12 gauge size, do you think the lamp bulbs will become brighter ? Enjoy ! MrD. |
@bigddesign3 You could try the Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme speaker cables at $649 for an 8’ pair. Bob is the owner and lives here in Phoenix. Terrific guy! Right now, he has a Black Friday special still going on A’gon here - the 8’ pair for $399 with a 30 day money back guarantee I believe. Worth checking out! Dave |
I'm wondering if there are any thoughts on Kimber Cable speaker wire. Going back to the seventies, these things were in the showrooms. It's the TC Series that I wanted to get some feedback on. Kimber Cable 8TC and 12TC are affordable, but as of 2018, I don't hear of anyone using them with their systems anymore, and forums have said that they accent the mid-high regions. That would make me uncomfortable. It's been years for me since I have made a speaker cable change. I won't spend over $700 for a pair of 8ft speaker cables. I find the whole speaker cable industry confusing. Ridiculous pricing is abound. Hell if I'm gonna pay huge money for a wire. |
klh, I am not dissing the Mapleshade cables. I know Pierre and I use some of his blocks. Pierre has an excellent reputation, ears and is a very experienced listener. I tried his cables and although very detailed, I felt they were a bit light in weight ( less meat on the bones ), again, imo, and in my system. Enjoy ! MrD. |
viber, I am currently running 4 x 14 gauge in wall / direct burial CL2 rated cable per speaker run, at 20 ft each side. I bought it from a supplier years back. Pure copper, many strands, nice jacket, and lowers my gauge, as I am doubling up. Sounds wonderful to me. Techno, imo, buyers / users of the Neos will likely bi wire, and then, ultimately, biamp. Those straps are coming out. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I would sincerely expect Martin Logan to include state of the art jumper cables from WW or Nordost with a 80k flagship pair of speakers. Not solid straps. For example, Verity Audio uses Nordost Valhalla cable throughout their top gun transducers. Talk about a fully finished product that respects the customer and his deep wallet... |
Mrdecibel, Do you use 12 gauge zip cord or another type of speaker wire? I never tried 12 gauge zip. Maybe it doesn’t exist. I do remember Monster Cable in the old days, to be merely fat zip cord, but can’t remember if I tried it. But thanks to klh007 for mentioning Mapleshade. My zip cord is only 4-6 feet long. His description is close to my observations with thin zip. 16 is close to 18 in sound. Even 16 is much thinner than most audiophile speaker wire, which cater to typical audiophile tastes. I should have said to WC, thin zip cord will give the most PING FOR THE PENNY. Ha Ha. |
It is interesting that Mapleshade lists their speaker cable for a maximum of 16 ft runs. I will never debate why someone likes something over another ( in audio ), if in fact they have tried it every which way. It easily shows how different we all are as listeners. But for me, I prefer 12 gauge or equivalent. Enjoy ! MrD. |
WCSS, If you want to try @viber6's thin wire theory, the ultimate retail version would be from Mapleshade and their Clearview Double Helix, http://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerwires.php These minimal "skinny" wires surprisingly produce great deep bass, very wide (startling) dynamics, and get the beginning of notes better than almost any competitor. |
“techno, why would an 80K set of speakers by a very well established, successful and popularly liked company, make their speakers ( and yes, we are speaking of the flagship model ) with double pairs of speaker connectors, and talk about both biamping, and " bi wiring ", in the owner's user and set up manual ? That's right. It's just you ! Have anything else to contribute on the subject ? No, so let's move on. You are being a bit troll - like. Calling it as I see it. Enjoy ! MrD. “ I didn’t say it techno but.... |
For starkly comic relief, I will state that I prefer plain no. 18 zip cord for speaker wire. Yes, I know that larger cable (lower gauge) should transmit more power, etc. But my listening tests over several decades have shown that lower gauge speaker cables give the sound more bass and psychoacoustically "subtract" HF due to the more prominent LF. It is a tonal balance effect, with my thin zip cord creating more brilliance. The bass is still there, but tight even if not as full. In short, bigger speaker wire creates big veils and obese sound. Then we have the filter designs like MIT and Transparent Audio, which I have found to create veiling. If you like that type of sound, OK. WC has found that the copper/silver of the WW Silver 8 has more HF than the pure silver Platinum. This seems paradoxical, because silver is the best electrical conductor. Maybe the Platinum is thicker, so that changes the tonal balance more to the lower freq, and the HF are less apparent. All this shows that the crazy theories of cable design are a lot of hot air in comparison to just doing listening and figuring out what kind of sound you want. WC, try just using no. 18 or 16 zip cord, either single wire or biwire. You will find the Neo to have more HF. Although the bass will probably be less in quantity, it will probably be tighter. And your Dag sound character will move in the direction of the Plinius--more sparkle and clarity. You will be shocked at these findings. Spend a few pennies for zip cord, for the best bang for your penny! |
@MrD, In regard to the Morrow Audio cable change in design..... I have quite a bit of their cables, and really liked the sound that they produced compared to others tried in my system. Call me impressed would be an understatement. After break-in, the Morrow Audio cables offered improvements that I would expect from cables costing 10x more. I have no inkling of changing them out for any cable, regardless of price or reputation. The cables bring it. And I have heard what proper synergy is with systems. I am skeptical in his new design of cables, and he wants all of us to buy his new ones. Having spent a large chunk of cash wiring most of my system with his older cables, I would feel better if he would have "loaner cables" with a deposit, to test out the new design. From my viewpoint..... I'm not sure what the sound is going to be like. But I don't feel that it is going to be better with the new diameters and cotton insulation. My system is so dialed right now, and haven't had to touch it in about a year. I'm sure that I probably will cave next year and buy 2 sets of XLRs to find out what's up with the new tech. I believe in progress. It just has me butt hurt with all the praising I have given to the community about the Morrow Audio company's wire design. Then everything is completely changed with the design philosophy. Can you feel my anguish? |
I knew that I was stirring the pot with my concept of keeping the jumpers in with a not true bi-wiring type of setup. As stated, I would say that exploring that route could not hurt. My principles have me balking at "true bi-wiring". I feel the designer of the speaker has built it for one speaker cable running into it. Otherwise, he would insist that you bi-wire it. I'm just a stubborn old man, and stuck in my ways. You can't hurt anything other than your pocket by running 2 sets of speaker cables and keeping the jumper in. And you could try them both ways and draw conclusions from that. I was just stating my opinion on the subject of how I would feel better about the change to 2 sets of speaker cables. |
techno, why would an 80K set of speakers by a very well established, successful and popularly liked company, make their speakers ( and yes, we are speaking of the flagship model ) with double pairs of speaker connectors, and talk about both biamping, and " bi wiring ", in the owner's user and set up manual ? That's right. It's just you ! Have anything else to contribute on the subject ? No, so let's move on. You are being a bit troll - like. Calling it as I see it. Enjoy ! MrD. |
That’s just me, but I could not stand having two different sets of cables plugged into my 80k speakers terminals. It’s just not the right and clean way to do it. Transition mode I understand, but please at this level of gear give the buyer some optimality ( a fully finished product)... If I buy a 50k diamond ring to my wife, I want it to be perfect...not a to be perfected diamond ring... |
bigdesign3....leaving the jumpers in defeats all concepts and benefits of bi wiring. I am sure your way has a particular sound, 4 wires and the jumpers. In fact, leaving the jumpers in, connecting a pair of cables to the panel connection ( top ),or that same pair to the woofer connection ( bottom ), the sound will change. I appreciate your deswire ( desire, did you like that ? ) to have the thickest speaker cable available.WC, did you change the 2 pairs of wires between the panels and the woofers ? Try it, as it will sound different. Between which of these 2 configurations you prefer, I feel you will continue to hear improvements in the bi wiring, because with the experience of listening, it will just become more obvious those little details. And on the level of the Neos, very obvious. With the mono’s, bi wiring will be more dramatic. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I didn't realize that you were using two different speaker cables. Oh my? I know people will call me crazy (which I could be), but I would still try 2 exact copies of the speaker cable of choice and leave the jumpers in. This will give you double the thickness of energy going thru to the speaker. Will it work? That's up to the fact that if the existing speaker cable is enough gauge transferring power to the speaker. Messing with sending one set to the bottom octaves and another set to the mid to upper octaves could show some type of improvement. I just think that you may be messing with something that the designer had not intended. The designer has not used all types of speaker cable when making these speakers So said effect on bi-wiring using the so-called "right way" may not help. It could hinder the sound field. The point I'm making is that for the most part.... speaker cables really need (IMO) some total gauge that runs close to 8 to 10 guage with a powerful amplifier. Doubling the energy coming to the speaker will not change the full range design, and could have a more powerful and full sounding speaker system. This point is argued with many in the high end audio world. I'm discussing with a cable designer from Morrow Audio quite a few times with his theory, and it is the same as mine. His cables get more insulated single core copper wires each time you go to another level. Having gone up a few levels.... the "sheet" works in a way that everything about the music is more realistic and fuller sounding, along with greater imaging. A lot of silver with make for a different sound, compared to copper with some silver. Personally I like the sound of copper with some silver much better with my equipment. Money could be spent elsewhere for more sound improvement for the money. I remember when WCSS 1st tried out the Wireworld Platinum speaker cables and didn't like them as much as his existing Wireworld cables. To each is own with these cables that are priced so high that you could buy a car with them. If you can afford it, so be it. I'll take another car please for my driveway. Or darn, it's full already and going out into the street. Never enough cars. |
On another note, I have been trying platinum 7 wireworld cables and silver 8 and to my surprise, I prefer the silver 8 over the platinum 7 with these speakers. The Logans just don’t benefit of the pure silver because it tends to smooth out the highs just too much and with the silver 8 which has some copper, you gain more “in your face” highs that really benefit these speakers. I can’t say for sure with other speakers but with my neoltihs, the silver 8 is better than the platinum 7. |
Ok men: I’ve been doing biwire over a few days and used wireworld silver 8 on the lows and platinum 7 on the highs. I definitely detected a slight more separation with the instruments. I felt as if certain things popped out of the speaker occasionally but this is very dependent on the song. It’s not something that is very obvious or easy to pick up. You have to look for it and then you will find it. I will say that if you have cables laying around and your equipment allows for it , then do it. Will you hear a day and night difference? Not really but it is a slight improvement over using a single cable. Make no mistake about it. |
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