@whitecamaross Have you tried any non-over sampling R2R or Discrete R2R Ladder Dacs like MSB I personally seem to favor those over Delta Sigma Dacs or oversampling interpolating DACs. But I must say that have not been near the price of the DACs you have tried. This is an interesting read, though https://www.psaudio.com/article/my-kingdom-for-a-dac/ . RE: Last night's DAC shootout You know some cables take several hours to settle in after being moved or taken out or put in.They can sound forward or edgy at first... just a thought. |
Esoteric knows how to do digital. That’s for sure.
I get the technology trickledown in the parent-co Teac nt-505, a budget $2k streamer/dac that is really good (dual mono, fully balanced, dual torroidal power supplies, full mqa, AKM4497, etc).
There’s a budget recommendation for those inclined - now back to regular programming |
Shootout just ended. In short, the general feeling was that the esoteric k1 simply had more synergy with my current system. The entire time was spent trying to help the dcs catch up to the esoteric k1. I'm not going to lie to anyone , I expected the vivaldi to easily hand the esoteric its ass. I thought it would just outperform it since it's a stand alone dac and it doesn't have a CD player but I gotta keep it real. Look, I don't have a horse in this race and I own both dacs outright. I can keep either one but the truth is that the more impressive machine with my current set up is the esoteric k1.
I present facts and the fact here is if you have money to spend on only one component, the dcs Vivaldi might not be the better buy over the the esoteric k1. It just doesn't really trump it or even gets to distance itself. If you have 15-20k to burn on a dac, the esoteric k1 steals the show and you even have a SACD PLAYER.
Another thing, the filters on the dcs are not much help and I read the entire manual. Tried cables, pushing filters , different outlets and yes it got much better than where we started and never enough to best the esoteric. It just simply didn't do that.
That said, I'll educate myself a little more on it but I want to be clear on ONE THING: if you are a vivaldi owner and are going to come here and disagree with me then it better be because you have owned the esoteric grandioso k1. If you have zero experience with this esoteric then you have zero idea what you are talking about.
Lots of dcs owners out there and also lots of esoteric owners too so I want to be sure both camps understand that with my current system the esoteric seems to be better but I am not done yet with the dcs. I will see what tricks i can come up with to improve its performance without having to spend 10,000 dollars.
Anyhow I will post the differences tomorrow. |
Ok so things are now getting very interesting. We stopped using the Denali and we are now straight into the outlet using the cardas xl PC. Huge huge improvement for both dacs. |
Another comment
" dcs is thinner and it accentuates the mids "
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Enjoying the live feed of the shootout!
very interesting pts psnyder |
Another comment
"Dcs over extends things a little too much and esoteric more organic and more natural" |
Here are my comments after taking the best seat: (using tidal and just flac files )
Dcs presents things a little more closer to you as if you moved up a couple of seats. It can get a tad " in your face"
Esoteric has a feeling of sounding very even throughout but it has a little less bottom end.
If I were to choose one right this second based on what I’ve heard, I’d go with esoteric.
Before I forget , those filters on the dcs are useless. I can't hear a damn difference on those f1- f6 filters.
By the way we were using stock powercords but now we are going to try cardas clear audio xl.
Stay tuned ! |
Vivaldi does not come with any built in streamers. You need to buy that separately unlike the dcs Rossini.
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@whitecamaross
Does the version of the Vivaldi you purchased have the built-in streamer?
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kren0006,
What does "sound better" mean? To a lover of warm/laid back sound, it means something completely different than to a lover of clarity. WC himself has stated that he may be moving toward a clarity-oriented sound, rather than his former desire for euphonic oceans as with the ARC ref 10. From the context of his comments about the neutrality of the Boulder preamp sound, I suspect that he finds its detail/clarity to be better than the Vivaldi, although only WC can clarify what he really means. Another example of his new preference is the fact that he thought the Transparent wiring is too warm and that he prefers the clarity of the Nordost Odin.
So I suggest that people describe things in specific more objective terms rather than subjective, value laden terms like "better" and so on.
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Some comments I am getting as the shoot out is taking place :
" Esoteric has more musicality. More soul. More feeling to the music all the way. It connects you with the music to another level "
More comments from others to come soon ! |
WC,
I agree with mayorwest. DCS sells the Vivaldi at least in part in components to allow their customers to upgrade it over time without forking out full cash all at once for base unit, masterclock, upsampler and whatever other standard options that they sell. If you are going to compare two ultra-high end pieces and then declare which one sounds better, then I think it is your obligation as a reviewer to utilize the piece in it's best configuration... or at the very least, doing it both ways. That the Esoteric does not have these options or does not emphasize them is not DCS' fault. DCS thinks reclocking and upsampling are critical for SOTA, Esoteric doesn't. If you think that is somehow "unfair" then find yourself a Vivalvdi One that has everything already built in.
Since many of you are car enthusiasts (I am not) I going to attempt an anology. Comparing 1 expensive sports car that has a big and a small option for engines against another sports car that only has one size engine... if you are comparing the two, my guess is that you would use the big one and let them slug it out in their best edition.
If you were comparing a turntable with an optional external power supply (i.e. Linn) with a turntable that utilizes vacuum hold down and an air bearing (are these still things??? lol) you would not compare base models, you would compare loaded options, or at least as part of your "shoot out".
These "options" are not "tweaks" as one contributor suggested but fundamental to the designs.
Additionally, the fact that high end manufacturers include a crap powercable, maybe even stock USB or ethernet cable and possibly a set of "Radio Shak" rca interconnects (I sure hope these are no longer included but I know the other 3 were included in the new server I just bought!) in no way insinuates that this is the way the manufacturer expects their equipment to be used, or the power cable would be permanently attached and not an IEC connection. Manufacturers recognize that their customers are likely to change these to suit the rest of their system so they rarely bother including anything above base level cabling.
Sure there can be something learned from auditioning them in their worst possible light. But I think it is your responsibility if you are going to be passing judgements comparing SOTA equipment to spend more time putting them in their best possible light.
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Fwiw; on the Vivaldi, I think they assume you’ll get the clock. I agree it’s not the same fair fight if the Vivaldi has the clock and the K1 didn’t, but I do think they likely designed the system assuming you’d have the full Vivaldi stack. |
Well said my friend.
Cheers |
I agree but most reviews also use a laptop if you read carefully. That said , I want to do a baseline shootout and this is exactly what this will be. From here we will go up to a clock or upsampler etc next year. I want to enjoy the ride from the bottom. This is the only way to gauge if something was better or not. |
With all that SOTA system you have, streaming via a laptop is PITA.
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W20 will kill the laptop.
Can't wait to read about your results.
Does the version of the Vivaldi you purchased have the built-in streamer?
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Update:
No w20 tonight. The person who was bringing it is not able to come . |
My money is on the Esoteric K1. |
Thanks for the link. I will be reading it later on. Tonight the shootout will take place and it will be as follows: Esoteric k1 vs Vivaldi (both stand alone) Final touch audio USB (REVIEW HERE ) https://www.audiostream.com/content/lampizator-pacific-balanced-dac-review MacBook laptop Stock powercords on both dacs and into the shunyata Denali 6000t Boulder 2010 with transparent reference powercord (testing this ) connected into dedicated 30a outlet (udioquest nrg outlet) Wireworld platinum 7 xlr from dacs to preamp Wireworld platinum 8 xlr from pre to amps Nordost odin 1 speaker cables Nordost odin 1 pcs on xs300s monos and plugged into dedicated 20a outlets on each amp All the equipment has been playing non-stop since yesterday 11am so when we start tonight at 8ish it will be about 30 hours of constant music in order to have everything cooking Part 2 of the shootout : Aurender w30 will replace the laptop and we will continue to use USB. |
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With as much as Viber6 posts, filtering those posts can become confusing because you need the context of said posts. That's why many have asked that Viber6 post less and stop with the summing up and telling us all "how" it should sound. WC has heard it in his system and he is telling us how it sounds to him. This is the topic and purpose of this very interesting long-running thread. Let's keep it there. |
Keep dreaming rbach.
Just filter Viber6 posts and be done with it. But they keep reading and returning, it seems like an addiction... a love hate story... lol |
Aside from a couple of manufacturers and the ’everybody has a right to post’ contributors, the riff raff of the last few posts seems to be the majority here.
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viber6,
Putting aside the riff-raff of the last few posts....
I suspect a component, like the Vivaldi, can perform differently for different functions. WC had mentioned that it was not supposed to perform as well as a preamp and that it performs much better when used as a source. So, while the question about Boulder introducing a slight coloration is a possibility, I believe the difference might be more on the side of the Vivaldi acting as source+preamp vs source only. You mentioned that there should be no difference, but this is where I would disagree, based upon what I just mentioned.
Dave
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I think it is really that he would like to "change" WC and everyone else so that they view the universe of audio as he does. By continually repeating (at least 50 times I’m sure) the characteristics that he considers most important and why he is right and everyone else is wrong, he is either trying to convert or I guess defending himself.
Anyway, I hold no animus and don’t wish to start an argument, just wish to keep the thread on track which means WC comparing gear and then relating the results, without others providing annoying mischaracterizations or rationalizations about why WC must be wrong.
Nobody has to agree with WC or even value the same things he does. But it’s his thread and if you like other things than he does, then filter his conclusions appropriately -- just please don’t keep banging the rest of us over the head with your myopic views.
We get it, V likes clarity. That’s fine. Telling us once was enough. |
The saddest part of this thread...for the last 1.5 years...is the same person asking a zillion questions and has absolutely ZERO desire to purchase any of the products described. I fail to understand the point of the constant and irritating interrogation. These poor guys at Merrill, GTA think they have this guy on the line and he's actually going to shell out for their gear? I feel bad for them and all their wasted time and efforts. If your product costs more than a few G's it aint gonna happen. |
Well we do have 168 pages of WC’s views on his interpretations of sound and what characteristics top sounding equipment exhibit. By now we should all know what he values, and if it was "zero competition" as he related, probably safe to assume Boulder whomped in all/most.
Like I said, when it’s competitive he will generally list pros and cons. Seems it wasn’t here. |
kren0006,
"
because it SOUNDS BETTER!.",
I couldn't agree more! I assume all of us want what sounds best to our own ears. I would be naive to believe that everyone wants the same thing out of a system as I do and to keep insisting that everyone does would be arrogant. |
viber,
Just a guess, but it seems clear from WC’s assessment that it is superior because, wait for it ........ because it SOUNDS BETTER! Yes, the sound quality is dramatically better -- "zero competition" according to WC, full stop.
No theory, no wishful thinking, no hopeful recharacterizations, just a straight up A/B test listening to them side by side -- which one sounds better? Doesn’t sound like it was close. When competitions are competitive, WC will typically describe the aspects in more detail, but here it sounds like it was the Globetrotters vs the Generals, men against boys.
Please don’t post in a few pages that the Vivaldi was competitive with the Boulder per WC as you tried to do with the Merrill but then were publicly smacked down by WC for the mischaracterization. He is making his determinations extra clear, ("zero competition") it seems, for your benefit so that you are not confused again.
It’s about sound quality, period. Not about particular nuances of sound quality that only you seem to feel are important above all else. Audiophiles just want the equipment that SOUNDS THE BEST, and that’s what WC tells us. Because he’s heard them and done the comparison, not because of theory or relying on reviews or other people’s impressions.
WC, could you compare the Boulder pre to the Ref 10, which for a long time (80 pages or so of this thread I think, maybe over half of it) was your preferred and favorite pre? I know you never had them at the same time, but whatever you can offer would be interesting as far as how they compare, thx |
WC,
In what specific ways is the Boulder preamp superior to the Vivaldi? You can still do the bypass test using the Vivaldi + Boulder + Pass XS versus Vivaldi + Pass X. There should be no difference if the Boulder is perfectly transparent. Or does the Boulder introduce a slight coloration that you like?
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spinaker01,
Agree totally.
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@whitecamaross
A new Luxman flagship pre-amplifier has arrived. The CL-1000, perhaps it could give a fight to the Boulder. Also given that you loved the C900U so much.
(am a lurker on this thread for 3 yrs now, thanks for the vicarious journey) |
I think that WCSS’s decision to use the stock power cords is valid. If a product requires a bunch of tweaks to sound its best, it’s either hobbled as a design or you end up evaluating the tweaks along with the product. Settle on a superior device and then slowly start changing some things like cords and isolation devices. A shootout is no place to introduce extraneous variables.
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My friend just took delivery of a Vivaldi and he reports that it took a few days to settle in and start performing so give it some time. |
Bolder 2010 vs dcs Vivaldi (preamp war )
Boulder 2010 sent the Vivaldi packing right away. I should give the boulder paid time off because there has been zero competition here for it when it comes to preamplification. It murdered the xp30 and it made the Vivaldi realize that it is meant to be used as source and not to try and do a man’s job when it comes to preamplification.
I wish I had local audiophiles that could bring something serious to fight this boulder.
Stay tuned. Tomorrow's shootout will bring many interesting things ...= |
How much time will you spend to optimise filter selection on each DAC? I’d suspect changing a filter will be more dramatic than changing between DACs. And of course without optimized power cords, footers and interconnects you are hearing a fraction of what either DAC can offer. Such is the folly of “shoot outs” - it takes many months of living with a component to gets its true measure.
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Dac vs dac with stock powercords. We need to be fair to both here. We can't have one with a clock and the other one without a clock. It must be apples to apples. Both are stand alone dacs with factory powercords and into the Denali. |
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Dcs Vivaldi is in the house and up and running. Tomorrow I will do the shootout between the k1 and Vivaldi. I have my initial impressions already and I can say that the law of diminishing returns between both is huge. For now, I don’t feel like the dcs is really giving me more synergy than the esoteric. Part of the shootout will be a blind folded shootout so that nobody is biased because I have people coming from both camps. Will keep you all posted ! |
RIAA; In this thread they'll need to be Ritz crackers!!
Don |
maplegrovemusic,
Agree, except "just transparency" is a big feat that few components accomplish. Colored, flavor of the month sound is much more prevalent and comes at all price levels. Much fewer women look great in minimal clothing vs many ordinary looking women who need fancy outfits with jewelry to look decent.
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WC,
Thanks for your clarification that you found the Boulder preamp more transparent than the Christine. Even if the DCS Vivaldi volume control lacks a little transparency (thanks to faxer's post that volume control is a critical problem in a preamp), it is what it is and will be a constant, as you try the DCS direct into your Pass XS and compare it to the DCS plus Boulder into the Pass XS. People talk about synergy when combining a ruthless component with a forgiving one, for example. But I believe if the Boulder is truly transparent, its benefit is not due to synergy, but the fact that it lets the other components reveal themselves better.
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Waiting to hear the budget Stillpoint alternative from Mr. Knowitall....Probably something like Take 2 Triscuit Crackers and Crazy Glue them together. Do this 4 times and place them under your Wilsons in each corner. This will cost you about $1.50...slightly less than the magnificent Zip Cord I use. |
Thank you for the info. I'll take a look. |
There are more than a few people who have used stillpoints ultra,5 & 6,s under Wilson speakers and report a substantial improvement. Something worth drawing your own conclusion on WC vs what Wilson saids. For source i would try the Center Stage footers ( Steve Williams )but be warned there is a crazy break in period from what I read. Check out WhatsBestForum where Steve is a moderator along with the distributor they even have their own forum.
WhatsBestForum is a great source for info from the majority of guys have at least your level of system and beyond.
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I have never had a preamp at the level of my boulder. However , maybe it’s the synergy as a whole that I am loving. I will try to use the dcs Vivaldi as a preamp and connect it to my pass amps .what if it blows me away ? Although I have heard from dealers that the Vivaldi isn’t great as a preamp but rather as a source. However , you all know I will do my own experiments and will draw my own conclusions but yes I will admit that if the Vivaldi comes here and creates better SYNERGY for me when used as a preamp then I'll be shocked. |
It would be very nice if all the supposition some folks feel so inclined to provide on an all to often basis, would be refrained from. Let the thread return to WC and his adventure. |
There are many of us who can afford to spend the money whitecamaross does on a preamp but don't due to the fact it is not necessary when one is looking for just transparency . The Benchmark is definitely on my radar . |
