Whitecamaross, With the changing out of your speakers a couple of months ago from Martin Logan to the PL500, have you ever considered revisiting any of the numerous (dozens & dozens) of amps you tried before? The electrostatics present a vastly different load type to any amp versus a dynamic speaker and some of the amps you were perhaps less than enthralled with may now turn out to be real champs with the Monitor Audios - and perhaps a couple of bargains in the bunch. I know going back over old ground is the last thing you want to do, but all of your previous observations are really only valid with that ONE speaker which you no longer own.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
My dealer and the importer of Monitor Audio here are not horrible at all in their marketing or otherwise, in fact they are very straightforward and extremely accommodating with everything. This including a fully free trial of the PL500 at my own house in my own system for two weeks, after which I bought them. I was never offered this from a Wilson or Magico dealer for a model in which I was interested at. A lot of shows also with the PL500 around, so nothing wrong with that. |
Many, many Monitor Audio dealers are installers and know absolutely nothing about PL500s, 300s, or even the 200s. Wilson and Magico dealers have more product knowledge than any Monitor Audio dealer I've ever talked to. Most high-end speaker manufacturers require the dealer to set-up the speakers and are trained to do so. Can we say that about Monitor Audio? I don't know about you, but that's a big fat no based on my experience. Look I love my PL500s, but based on my experience you don't get the same quality treatment as some of the other high-end manufacturers. |
The monitor audio pl500s would bring tears to those salon 2 owners. I just had 3 friends leave after listening to the salons vs my platinums. They said the salons sounded mufffled in comparison to the platinums. Isn’t it funny how most people here would never guess such an outcome? I actually was talking to a dealer today about a piece im interested in buying and he asked what speakers I owned and said monitor audio pl500 and salon2s and he said oh wow salon 2s I love that speaker. Lol little does he know the pl500s demolish the salons but hey the perception is that the salon should beat the pl500s because of all the media coverage they have. This goes to show you that sometime assuming is really the wrong way to judge things. I believe someone here had messaged me about 3 weeks ago asking me what I thought about my past experience with the salon 2 because he wanted to replace his pl500s and his dealer told him the salons were far superior. I told this person that I’d still take the platinums and this was before I got my hands on these salons so now my gut feeling is 100% real. The pl500s are superior to the salons 2. It makes the salon 2s sound like they are playing non high definition material and the pl500s sound like they are playing hd music. That’s the best way to explain it. |
I am using the luxman combo with the salon and it’s very good sounding. Very nice detail and smoothness with big soundstage. The only thing I do feel is that if you put the hammer down, the luxman amp thins out just a tad which is expected since it’s only 150 watts per channel. By the way, I bought a silver 7 power cord for my audio research reference 6 preamp and wow. HUGE DIFFERENCE. this is the first time I can honestly say I hear a drastic change with a powercord. The boulder amp does drive the salon 2s very nicely. |
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I don’t believe I have ever heard of the Salon 2s accused of sounding both lacking in bottom end and muffled. My experience on hearing them in several rooms and systems has been just the opposite-they are a very neutral and full range transducer. Not saying they don’t sound that way in your room or that the PL500s don’t sound excellent, just that your comments on the Revels run counter to the VAST majority of user opinions and my own experiences. But hey, it’s not your cup of tea so fair enough, the 500s sound like a speaker I do need to check out some day though. |
i agree w previous poster. my own personal experience w the salons was that they are a state of the art speaker in their price range and above. universally praised for very good reason. if the salons sound muffled one has a very dark system. last note. the salons are one of jeff rowland’s demo speakers which i heard at his ofc in Co. I was totally blown away. overwhelmed actually BTW I don’t own a pair. Just a big fan |
Salon 2s will sound good if you only have them by themselves to listen to. Nobody accused them of sounding dull when they are sitting there by themselves. It’s when you have a superior speaker sitting next to it and actually do a full comparison by swapping full electronics when you’ll realize that they aren’t as huge sounding or detailed as you think they are. Remember, salon is 12 year old outdated technology. The platinums 500s came out at the end of 2014 so they are about 4 years old. Think of it like this: go drive a 2000 Lexus and see how smooth it rides. You’ll be thrilled. Then go and jump in a 2018 Lexus and then you’ll see how much smoother it is. That’s what it takes for you to realize things. You must do a true a/b comparison on the spot. |
Salon speakers need to be broken in... COuple days is not break in... Even 200 hours of operation will not break in Salon... THey likely require about 1K hours. And so do most components. Doing comparisons with components that have not yet plateaued does not give an indication of their real performance. I know, it is a very time-consuming process... Can't be helped. G. |
You must do a true a/b comparison on the spot. @whitecamaross I'm having difficulty understanding why the comparison needs to happen "on the spot" as you have said. What makes you say this? What makes it not possible to hear the Salons for what they are and also hear the Monitors for what they are, separately and within different systems? |
Because at this level, things aren’t easy to pick apart. You honestly think you can hear an audio research 6 today and next next week hear the audio research 10 and you can pick them apart ? Human ear doesn’t have a long memory like that. It is easy to forget what a system sounds like when you haven’t heard it in months. Your ears get used to the sound. Haven’t you gone on vacation and then when you return and turn on your system after weeks of not listening to it and all of a sudden you are like wow... but this wow effect lessens the more you listen to it day in day out ? That’s because your brain and ears get adjusted to it. The only TRUE WAY to asses whether something is better and by how much is best done by having both at once. Does this mean you can’t do it without having both ? No. But you will only know HOW MUCH better or worse something is by having them both. That’s what I have noticed. If I had the luxman preamp and not the ref 6, I couldn’t tell what each one excels at because again at this level of the field it’s much more difficult to pick things apart. |
What is the rationale for advocating ultra long break-in time for audio components? What part(s) require 1000 hours before they’re able to sound their best? I do accept the idea that some new w components/parts need some degree of burn-in and use, say 50 to 200 hours . I’m genuinely curious as to the necessity of uber level (>500) of hours for materials, capacitors, resistors, transformers, signal wire etc. Honestly, 1000 hours for "sufficient" burn-in ? I’d love a clear explanation. Charles |
Hello Charles, I could answer with pseudo-engineering lingo.... Capacitors, boards, transformers, and other components need to "demagnetize". Reality is that I am simply not sure "why". All I know that my experience has been, with very few exceptions, that speakers, most electronics, and most wire products have required a lot of break-in in my own system before their performance plateaued. Speakers have been particular "dogs"... Usually oscillating performance until about the 1500 hours mark. Amps are typically 1K hours, with Merrill Teranis on the low side at 600 hours, and ROwland M925 on the high side at 1500. The Rowland Aeris Dac was some 90% broken in at 1200 hours, but continued to settle for another 1200. Cables range from 300 to 600 hours... But I have had a couple of cases where fluctuations continued until 800. The fastest piece of electronics has been the ROwland PSU external power supply, which reached maturity in one week of generating DC for the Aeris. Yes.... I track break in on spreadsheets, and take a lot of notes. Saluti, G.
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Hi Guidocorona, I certainly appreciate your direct observations in your own audio system. You can only report what you’ve experienced with careful listening. No doubt that the required burn-in process varies from one component (and probably brand) to another. In my own experience I’ve found that by 150 to 200 hours ( sometimes less) that the audio components have settled in and have noticed minimal or no further changes after this point. We own very different types of audio components and that could very possibly be a significant factor resulting in different observed burn-in duration. Thanks for sharing your impressions. Charles |
Balanced Audio Technology should be in the mix. Their class A amps are second to none and cannot be beaten, particularly when you have very hungry speakers like my Apogee Acoustics Duetta Signature Series II dipoles. Their preamps are also incredible. I can’t wait to soon get my BAT VK-600 w/ BAT pack amp powering these speakers. |
While Balanced Audio Technology does indeed make excellent sounding gear, I don't see an indication of any of them operating in pure Class A on their website. They do offer a fine range of tube and solid state electronics. Their ability to drive your Apogee Duettas is a true testament to their being able to deliver high current into low impedance speakers. |
@parker65310 I believe all the BAT SS amps operate in class A/B. I have a VK-6200 and although it is absolutely superb, it operates in A/B. Totally agree with you on their ability to drive difficult speakers. The way that they can take control of the bass with such delicacy and detail is sublime. Amazing detail across all frequencies as well as micro/macro dynamics! |
@charles1dad FWIW I second Guido's observations regarding a very long burn in for Rowland gear. I PM'd him like crazy when I got my gear telling him the sound quality was moving around so much it was scaring me. Guido calmly told me to hang in there and let it cook longer. His burn in numbers are basically spot on for M925s and the Aeris DAC. These particular products are not for the impatient. Other gear I own has not had these extreme burn in requirements. |
- The monitor audio pl500s would bring tears to those salon 2 owners. @whitecamaross Posted above are your recent statements/findings on the Revel Salon 2s versus the Monitor Audio PL500s. To me the differences you point out are more than obvious. These two speakers are clearly quite different, to you, based on your impressions. I am still having difficulty understanding why one has to conduct an in home head to head comparison of speakers that are so clearly different, again based on your findings. -it takes for you to have BOTH systems or set ups and play with BOTH at the same time in order to realize how good one is over the other. Timbre, Tonality, Speed, Transients, Leading edge and decay, Soundstaging, Imaging, Resolution, Micro-detail, Dynamics, Accuracy, Liveness, Breath of Life, etc. etc. etc.... All of these should be easy enough to evaluate (especially with such different speakers) in any system and to remember. Had you found these two speakers to be very close in performance, I could and would understand needing an in-home A/B to sort out the nuanced differences and personal preferences before choosing one. I have not heard either speaker, but given the very strong differentials you note, I can't understand why one would need to do a head-to-head and within one's own system and room. Can you help me out and explain further? Thank you. I look forward to your ongoing gear evaluations. |
Hearing memory AT THIS LEVEL of electronics is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT. If you are comparing a denon receiver vs a datasat processor/amplifier set up then hell yes it is easy to tell. however, once you get to the big leagues in terms of amplification/preamp and speakers, things are not so clean cut anymore. It is much harder. Do you know how many times i have heard amps that i almost couldnt tell them apart unless i spent countless hours looking for songs that allowed me to hear their differences? For example, Hegel h30 vs pass labs 350.8. Very similar sounding amps that become difficult to tell apart in many ways, but i ended up feeling the hegel was a better buy because it costs less on the used market, no heat, and much better bass than the 350.8. Tonally speaking they are too close to prefer one over the other. One last thing, in order to TRULY asses any system and decide which one is better, a lot of conditions need to align: Same room, cables, front end, material, AND last but not least your energy level is HIGHLY IMPORTANT. I can't begin to tell you how many times i have listened to my set up and i thought it sounded poor and then i went to bed and got a full night of rest and tried it again and i thought " this sounds better than last night, what the hell happened?" This is the impact that tired ears have on you. They will blemish your experience quite easily. |
Well guys, tonight I have decided to part ways with the pl500s. Let me just say that these are indeed the best speakers I’ve had in my room. Besting Martin Logan clx, Renaissance, Sonus Faber cremonese, revel salon 2 and others I can’t remember now. I am going to be hopefully moving to a new home in 3 weeks and I decided that in the new bigger room I will have, I want Martin Logan neoliths. Yes, the boulder 2060 has to stay for now as well. I want to take this to another level. I don’t know how long it will take me to grab the neoliths so I’ll be using the salon 2s for now as I begin to find a new home for my platinum 500s. I will be listing them very soon. Be on the look out for these. |
whitecamaross this is fascinating thread. i wish that i was your next door neighbor because i would spend more time at your house than mine! lol...anyway ..wow! big change! have you ( or will you ) audition the martin logan neoliths prior to purchase? i know that you were very pleased with m- logans in the past so i can foresee you loving the neoliths down the road. but, you seem to have a broad appreciation of many types of speakers. so all bets are off if they will last that long..lol i,myself, am committed to the martin logan brand and i can't seem to relax and give conventional speakers a chance any longer. i fully understand that that they offer things that others speakers can not. but the reverse is also true. i still believe that some sort of sacrifice still must be made when choosing a speaker type. whether it be dynamics,sensitivity, bass power, transparency etc. the big question: will the neolith conquer both worlds. through your ears we all hoping to find out!!! mike |
Hi Mike, thanks for your words. I have heard the neoliths and thought they were the best I’ve heard but they do need the space. This is why I never considered them but hopefully this year it may happen for me. Luckily, I already have a front end (ref 6/boulder 2060) that I think will work perfectly handling the neoliths. First I have the find a home for my platinum set up and then continue do some numbers. Neoliths will not be cheap to say the least. as far as you being my neighbor, that would be great. I actually don’t have many audiophile friends in my neck of the woods since most people are into the beach etc and hardly anyone spends time in their home during weekends here. I happen to do long night listening sessions alone most of the time. It would be cool to have someone who wants to come and help me out move stuff around while we drink some whisky. |
whitecamaross thanks . at least we get to share our experiences in this forum. and ,truthfully, your reviews are so detailed that i think we all have gotten a real flavor of the stuff you have acquired over the years. and, especially, if any of us have actually owned some items that you have described it just adds to our perception as to what you are hearing across the board...that's why this is such a great thread,imho! mike |
Thank you again mike. I do this for everyone to read and gather my thoughts which could potentially help them on their next purchase. By the way, I started to play with the revel salons yesterday by positioning them better and using 2 speaker cables per amp by using the 4 binding posts per channel that my boulder amp provides. It’s actually really interesting to hear how much the sound morphed. One thing is for sure, the salon isn’t really to be played at low volumes to enjoy it. You need to crank it up to really hear it shine |
Simaudio 860a will be put to the test tonight. I just turned it on and will leave it on for about 3 hours before I listen to it. This amp needs to be on 3 days straight to really come to life so tonight is just a preliminary hearing. I’ll use salons and The platinum 500s. I suspect the simaudio will have amazing synergy with the pl500s and it won’t be able to make the salons sing. |
Revel salon 2’s absolutely need to be positioned properly. If you don’t take time to get this right, don’t even bother with them. But when you do, man, they are incredible. Let me give you a tip- do not put them close to the front wall. My front baffle is 5 feet from the front wall with a well treated front wall/corners, but honestly mine would be better even further out if my room aesthetics and ergonomics didn’t limit me. The downward firing port with its 360 degree dispersion makes it really prone to speaker boundary interference. The obvious symptom is weak bass as you mentioned, but it’s more than that. Close to the wall they just don’t image well, the soundstage will be shallow, and they just won’t snap into focus. More specific than just getting them out from the front wall, golden mean proportions in placement and listener position heavily apply to this speaker. Yeah, they’re high maintenance, but worth it if you can get the placement right. |
Thanks for the those tips. I’ll keep them in mind. Sooooo the simaudio 860a/ref 6 have been playing for the last 2 hours. Talk about synergy here guys. the soundstage is massive with those 2 components. I had forgotten how great simaudio amps are. I can honestly say that these two sound incredible and really could see myself happy at this point. Zero harshness, big sound, smooth, great overall musicality that makes you want to tap your feet. My audio research ref 6 has sounded the best with this simaudio amp. The synergy is incredible. the only two components that can rival the simaudio/ref6 is the luxman combo. |
Hello WhiteCamaross, if you will be starting with speakers of the caliber of the Neoliths in your new home, you might consider investing in a generous number of dedicated 20A AC lines... 1 for each electrostatic speaker, one for each monoblock and 3 to 4 for various line-level devices. Furthermore, if you ever consider testing Boulder 3000 series, or similar amps, you might want to install a couple of 30A dedicated lines. BTW, some extremophiles also upgrade in-wall wiring.... Furutech and Cardas wiring come to mind. Saluti, G.
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Ok guys, my monitor audios pl500s have been sold to a fellow audiophile friend of mine who’s been following my journey for sometime. He’s coming from Sonus Faber olímpica 3s which I’ve also owned. These speakers will totally elevate his listening experience to another level hands down. He also owns the luxman 900u combo which I know has insane synergy with the platinums. Going forward, all my listening sessions will be with the revel salon 2s until I buy the neoliths. I’ll be sad to see my platinums leave my home but they will certainly sing much better in his room because his room is much larger than mine which will allow these speakers to sound even better than they did with me. BEST SPEAKER I HAVE OWNED HANDS DOWN |
