The nice thing about the Focals is that it is allowing you to play with some lower powered amps, thus opening up a whole new world of amps to try. Fun to be along for the ride :-)
Dave
Dave
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
As far as the positioning of the speakers, they are about 5 feet away from the rear wall and 2.5 to 3ft from the side walls. I am about 10 feet away from them and they are just about 10 feet apart. Their position will change I am sure but for now that is what I think sounds best with them. As far as amplifiers, we will have to wait and see what will happen. I can’t really do much testing because they’re relatively new speakers. That said, those of you who have questioned the scala evo’s bass capabilities can rest assured that it is mind blowing to the point that you might need to move them away from any walls. Also, the better the amp as far as bass control , the less boomy or bloated effect you will get. Tubes are sounding very incredible right now. We shall see what the Merrill 118s will do with a tube preamp. I am getting a little ear fatigue over long term listening sessions but again there is just too many variables right now such as new speakers, new amp , preamp etc. And I also dont know if the nordost cables are actually the right cables for these speakers. I will be trying Merrill's own cables too to see what happens. I do remember the sopra 3s tweeter being a little smoother but they dont share the same tweeter and I think I was using wireworld platinum 7 speaker cables too. I am also highly contemplating the MSB premier dac at some point but not until I have played with all my current variables first. |
WC, Don't worry about ear fatigue over long listening sessions, especially with lower quality recordings. Even natural live music that is loud will cause ear fatigue after long listening. This is why great classical music is mainly soft to moderate in volume, so when the loud burst comes, it has more impact due to contrasts. This is what dynamic range and transient response are about. |
Nice Room. I always thought Focal had a bright presentation. If that has changed, great, but excess tweeter can get digital music painful. I noticed that the Martin Logan 15 is going for nice prices lately. They would be a great tool to work with the sound of other speakers to compare the difference of electrostatic vs standard speaker drivers. Anyway, your room looks like a winner. 10ft away from seating area (what you have now) to the speakers is a different experience than 7ft to 9 ft. Maybe the Focals need the space. Don't know, I'm not there to listen. Good luck in your fun new room. Just love the Home Theater design. |
Merril 118s with ref6 listening impressions to come soon. The only thing I'll share with you all is that changing speakers almost forces a complete system overhaul unless you are buying speakers within the same family. What sounded good before with my other speakers doesn't seem to be creating the same effect anymore with focal. That said, tubes are IMPRESSIVE with focal. Will the Merrill set up sing with focals ? We shall see... |
Preliminary impressions: Full Merrill set up: Thunderous bass control Huge sound Gobbs of detail that is typically buried in other systems Fast paced with zero sluggishness Excellent imaging and separation Full arc set up: Musical Sweet and engaging Big soundstage The best bass control i remember hearing from s tube amp/preamp This new amp has such a low floor noise that allows it to extract more detail than other tube amps I’ve owned. Please note: the amp only has about 5 hours of total playtime so it’s nowhere near its break in point. Still has much more to go before it hits its stride. I will try triode mode soon to see if it will be a better presentation than linear. Right now I can’t quite decide which set up I prefer because they both do things so amazingly. It is really about preference at this price point. Tubes will always engage you and keep you seated but there’s also the maintenance part and noise being introduced as tubes age. With the Merrill there’s no maintenance, no drama and it always plays as it should because you can’t turn it off at all. It also digs deeper in the music which tubes don’t do. Think about it like this: tubes will give you a high level summary of your company’s finances which focuses only on profits and not so much on losses or trouble areas. The Merrill will give you a detailed breakdown of it with actual facts as if you are the CFO of your company; it brings out all of the financial statements, balance sheets, etc with complete honesty so you can see the state of your finances. It won’t hide if you aren’t doing too well financially speaking and will tell you where your you’re bleeding money from. This is pretty much the best way I can describe it. |
@ skipping Thanks. It's indeed a very honest set up which won't lie to you at all but there's a preconceived idea of what class D is all about and that hurts it because if something doesn't sell due to this then it makes manufacturers hit the brskes. This in turn halts innovation in this arena. As far as the ref6, I will try it with the Merrill for sure. I am very excited to do so. Remember what I said, this is ALL ABOUT what YOU PREFER and there's really NOTHING out there that is perfect. The term "perfection" is subjective and it always comes with imperfections no matter what it is. I'm grateful to have both set ups here and be able to pick them apart. Having owned some of the best amps out there, I urge you all to begin to open up your mind and explore any class D of your choosing. I'm telling you all, it's really really coming soo close to some of the best amps out there. |
Ref 6 with Merrill 118s: -musicality in spades -Smooth, liquid with no fatigue -Bottom end is great BUT it doesn’t have the same grip/control as with the matching Christine preamp The trade off with using the ref6 instead of the Christine preamp is that you are giving up bass tightness/control and Dynamics in exchange for more of a forgiving presentation with poor recordings. You also lose some of the minute details that are found in the Christine but gain tube highs with sweetness with smoothness If you want facts and nothing but the truth Then go with the Christine. If you just want for everything you play to sound good without much emphasis on the bad then the ref 6 will be your ticket. This is a tough exercise in many ways because some songs need the Dynamics and muscularity of the christine while others need the sweetness and smoothness of the ref6. If you like classic rock or 80s, 70s, etc then the ref6 will blow you away here. If you do classical, jazz, reggae, techno, etc then the Christine will be your piece. Play queen, lynyrd Skynyrd, roxette, coldplay, Ellie goulding, adele, guns roses, ? -----> ref6 all the way Play deadmau5, tiesto, diana Krall, Tracy chapman, Bob marley, avicci? ---> Christine preamp. Do you have boomy sounding speakers that need bass tightness? Do you have laid back speakers that need more detail ? Christine with 118s. Do you have way too much bite on the highs ? Fatigue ? Inability to play things loud for long extended zessiins? Ref6 with Merrill 118s. I’m very very impressed with the battles taking place. The ref6 masks a lot of the low level detail but it adds delicious flavor to what it presents to you. It brings you a juicy steak on a platter each and everytime which is always tasty. The Christine brings you the steak but it let’s you know if it is not cooked to perfection while letting you know that they forgot to bring you the glass of wine you love to have with your steak. Are you the type of person that always orders the same thing from your favorite restaurant only because you know you always like it and don’t want to try anything else on the menu? If this is a yes, then go with the ref 6 and merrill 118s Are you the type that loves to venture and order different things from the menu each time you visit because you want to see what everything tastes like and this way you know what you like best ? Go with the Merrill 118s. |
This is a wonderful comparison, thanks for such a detailed account! I find the last example a little unusual with the restaurant. From reading the above, I would have thought the Ref 6 was more like going to a restaurant where they maybe use a little extra MSG to make everything taste better, but the Merrill allows you to taste the subtlety of all the dishes, at the risk that sometimes the dish won’t be very good. From these descriptions, I think I’d prefer a setup where all my favorite music still sounds great, but still is plenty revealing. Which sounds like the Ref 6? I don’t want the setup to dictate the music I like. |
Some people love to hear what was originally recorded and that means the Merrill Christine. I’m not going to lie, there’s material out there where the christine will give you a level of performance that the ref 6 can’t touch. I also heard far greater dynamic swings with the christine. For instance, sometimes I switch songs and the next song explodes with more volume the christine because it was recorded at a higher volume but when I do this same exercise using the ref6, I don’t really hear the same explosiveness when switching the same songs. It feels as if someone turned on the "late night mode" on the surround processor to keep action scenes under control late at night. |
Always good to have multiple options at your disposal. Why be stuck with 1 of anything? If you know anything about recording/engineering...especially during the drug induced 70's/80's...there is rarely such a thing as an "honest" rock recording that turned out exactly as the artist wanted it to sound. (People like KNOPFLER are an exception not the norm) Too much pressure to produce in a short period of time due to the record company wanting product NOW. Many of the guys behind the boards were just as messed up as the people playing. I can give you a Who's who of producers/engineers who admit to being coked out of their minds during the recording process of the biggest acts of the time. I deal with these people all the time and have been for 33 years now. So PLEASE dont tell me whats on the recording IS an authentic accurate presentation of what was initially intended. To "mess" with the sound to make it sound better via gear/speakers makes it NOT authentic?? Completely clueless. I can use Klipsch speakers to make a recording sound like Im at a concert and Harbeth to take the same recording so it sounds like Im in the studio. Why not have the same option when it comes to Amps/Pre/Dac/Disc Spinners?? Your just limiting your enjoyment and musical experience going down such a narrow path seeking "accuracy" which is a Myth to begin with.... in the world of Rock n Roll anyway. Variety is certainly the spice of life in the audio world. |
@rsf507 based on my own experience (I also have a well broken in Ref 6) and the many many reviews, I suspect we’re splitting hairs here. I’m not sure that many people grow tired of the Ref 6 sound, but do appreciate that everyone has different tastes, completely different setups, and in different spaces. |
WC, How does the ref 6 compare with the Rowland Corus, both with Merrill? RIAA, You're right about the lack of a real reference with coked/cooked rock recordings. With unamplified classical music, recorded relatively naturally, accuracy is more meaningful. Although I was never present at any classical production, we all know what voices sound like in real life daily in all kinds of environments. This makes it easier to use classical recordings as references. |
Given the inclusion of Merrill Audio equipment in this thread, I wanted to relate my very positive after-sale experience with Merrill Wettasinghe, the owner of Merrill Audio Advanced Technology Labs, LLC. After-sale support is certainly an important consideration when contemplating purchase of $$$ audio gear and so, I thought, relevant to this thread. Back in 2015 I purchased a Taranis power amp from Merrill. As you will know, this is a much more modest component than found in Merrill’s current lineup (e.g., the 118 power amps and Christine preamp being discussed here). This fall, the left channel of the amp started producing significant distortion when fed a signal. I contacted Merrill via email right at his shop’s closing time. Within 15 minutes or so, he replied with an attached, pre-paid FedEx shipping label. The amp was delivered to his shop and repaired. Worth noting: this is 5 years after the sale and after a significant upgrade to the entire Merrill Audio product line. Merrill’s time is obviously occupied by matters other than my Taranis amp problem. I can well imagine another manufacturer saying: "the product is out of warranty"; "its been discontinued and we no longer support it"; "consider upgrading to a more current design". Take your pick. Such was NOT the case with Merrill. The source of the problem was identified, the problematic component replaced, the amp tested and is now being returned. The best part from my perspective: NO CHARGE from Merrill for shipping or repairs. While I’ve no personal experience with the sonics of the 118s with Christine, auditioning would be well-worth it based on the OP’s comments. If considering a purchase, know that MAATL provides excellent after-sale support. |
I can vouch for this as well based on what my dealer has shown me. Merrill is all about keeping you happy and goes to great lengths. The only other company that reminds me of this is PS Audio. Now, go try that with McIntosh who currently has a 2 month lead time when it comes to repairs. Yes, send your McIntosh product in for service right now and you can expect it back right around tax season. |
I am not located at the microphone placement of a recording venue, when I attend a live performance. I am not in the studio, when my favorite musicians, and the accompanying producers, are doing their thing, making the music. Same, when the engineers and mixers are doing their thing. 50 years buying and listening to recorded music, as well as going through much gear over that time, I know I am listening to recordings, and not, the real thing. It does not matter how much one spends on equipment, as exhibited here. A poor recording, is exactly that, a poor recording. And a great recording, is again, just that, a great recording. What is never spoken about here, except for me, viber 6, and Guido ( unless I missed something, or someone ), is listening to the " emotional content " of the composers, and the players, which stands out, whether the recording is good, or bad. I can, and enjoy, listening to my recordings that are poor, because I listen past all of that other dribble spoken about. Yes, I own gear with superior sq, and more revealing of details, over a table top Bose all in one system. As long as I can hear the musicianship, which is why I listen to music to begin with, and I feel the performance is " accurate ", to me, I am fulfilled. I enjoy reviewers who talk about this, as not many, do. The simpler the system ( less gain stages, less room interaction, etc.), the more of this, is revealed. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I apologize to anyone, and everyone, with my demeanor. The truth of the matter is, we will always be limited by the recordings, and their processes. The audio equipment purchase merry go round, will never satisfy many, because those folks are trying to achieve something that I believe, to be impossible, with recorded music ( in the great majority of cases ). I have been there, done that, and, I understand the limitations of, and accept, the recordings, as they are ( a reason I am strictly passive at the preamp stage ). I know so many " audiophiles ", who only listen to the " best recorded music ", which is, as far as I am concerned, unfortunate. I am sorry for any negativity I have shown. Music is, and should be, a fun and enjoyable experience. I find this to personally be the case. |
WC, Many people debate whether the preamp or the power amp forms the dominant character of the whole system. Tube preamp, SS power amp, vs SS preamp, tube power amp. So far, you found that the ref 6 into the Merrill gives sweet sound. My guess is that this will also be the case with the Christine into the ARC 160S. As far as compatibility is concerned, as long as the input impedance of the power amp is more than 10x the output impedance of the preamp, this should be fine, as is the case here. |
You should also keep in mind that McIntosh probably has 1000 to 10000 times as many products in the field as most other manufacturers. Many are from as early as the 1940s. I would bet that at least half of what they have made is still in use today.. Well i stand corrected
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So how do you tell customers that if their stuff breaks, they need to wait 2 - 3 months to get it fixed ? If they have been in business since then and have that kind of traffic when it comes to repairs then WHY don't they hire more technicians ? Also, they aren't nowhere as big as denon/marantz and they don't take 3 months ? So what's their excuse? I can come up with a long list of companies larger than McIntosh that don't take 3 months to fix an item. Is McIntosh larger than Sony? I had a projector go bad and it was fixed in about 3 weeks. My point is if they wanna be "ballers" as the big companies then act like one and service things in a timely manner. If you have always been producing cars that compete with Toyota but now you want to battle Lexus by creating another line of cars then STEP UP YOUR GAME in all regards. Now you need a nicer dealership, better customer service inside that dealer, massage chairs in the lobby (yes I've seen this) etc etc. I was told that McIntosh refuses to hire more techs to fix product and their attitude is more like "it will get fixed whenever we get to it " and that's Bs in my book. |
whitecamaross ... how do you tell customers that if their stuff breaks, they need to wait 2 - 3 months to get it fixed ?It doesn’t typically take two months to get a McIntosh component repaired. I did once have a few week delay because Mac had to manufacture a new glass panel for my MR-80 tuner, which had been damaged in transit. That seems reasonable to me, because it’s unusual for a manufacturer to be willing to manufacture a part for a product many decades out of production. McIntosh schematics and service manuals are readily available and the company has many factory authorized service centers, at least in the US. These products are readily serviceable. That’s not to say that there haven’t been some problems for some users, but blame for some of those problems seems to be at the user end, such as the guy who famously was unwilling to return an amplifier for proper diagnosis and repair. Nothing was going to make him happy. I was told that McIntosh refuses to hire more techs to fix product and their attitude is more like "it will get fixed whenever we get to it " and that’s Bs in my book.That’s just hearsay, and inconsistent with my experience. |
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I tried using the nordost Odin 1 speaker cables and nordost odin 1 pc on the esoteric and that made things have a bit too much forwardness causing fatigue. I replaced the odin 1 pc with cardas xl pc on the dac and that fixed the issue. I also did a/b comparisons with Merrill's speaker cable vs nordost odin 1 and the odin 1 is on another level as it should be given the huge price gap between both. Nordost odin1 speaker cables with Merrill 118s is incredible. I also informed Merrill about this and he said they plan to display Merrill with nordost odin 1 on their next show. |
Thought I'd chime in here. I had a busy time with work for about a year and haven;t been able to contribute since late last year. Just recently got something of an upgrade itch again so I began getting caught up on about page 80. That was several weeks ago and I am still only on page 118. Thanks to all of you who have made this such a great thread! On page 117 or thereabouts you group-called out Tech-Troll. Well done! :D Thank you WC for sharing so much of your journey with us. I for one cannot believe the patience you have shown with a number of posters who seem to be on here to only haze you. Lampizator was such a great find for me and lots of you here. I went through something similar when I upgraded my Oppo 205 with a tube output stage via Modwright. Lampizator is now on my radar. Looking forward to getting current with you all in a few weeks. Cheers! :) |
WC, Please elaborate on the tonal differences between the Odin 1 and Merrill speaker cables with the 118's. Don't go back to assuming that more expensive means better. Please try no.16 or 18 zip cord for speaker wire. You have pennies to lose, and will find that midrange/HF detail will be better than any speaker wire you have tried. Bass will be tighter, but you probably won't like zip's lack of fullness that you crave. The ARC amp using zip will narrow the gap in detail with the Merrill using other speaker cable. |
I do not own a Lamborghini, but in very olden days, I "enjoyed" 18 gage zip cord as speaker wires for several years, until I could afford wire that was easily superior.... Amazingly, the 18 gager did "spin" vinyl and CDs as "fast" as upscale wires... A 58 minutes CD completed playback in exactly... 58 minutes... Not a second more *Grins!* And the above is just about the best thing zip cord did.... For the rest it felt constricted, hazy, dusty, boring, lacked detail, did not know the meaning of stage, promoted distortion, and was comfortably bested by every other cord I compared it to and eventually adopted... And was... utterly atrocious. The only wire I found worse than zip was some obscure speakerwire made by Zu... Never figured out how Zu achieved their spectacular perfformance flop. Saluti, G. |
You guys that are skeptical of zip just because it is cheap, or that thicker wire conducts more current, need to just try it. My theory is that much of differences in wire relate to tonal balances as if they are tone controls. Zip will have a lighter tonal balance and emphasize detail over fullness compared to other wires. I have tried numerous wires over the years on different speakers to know this to be true. The Lamborghini analogies are not applicable. I guarantee that zip will increase the detail and tightness of your ARC or other tube stuff. Possibly the Mapleshade thin wires are even better than zip for clarity and detail. The Mapleshade designer has made the same observations as me about the murkiness of thick cables. Their upscale line, Omega Mikro is still much cheaper than many other companies mentioned here. You ignored me last year when I mentioned Merrill, although Guido deserves the credit for first bringing our attention to that. Now you proclaim Merrill to have the most transparent and accurate sound. I will audition the 116 soon. Just try zip, likewise. Incidentally, grey9hound is likely right about repeatedly recommending the Tekton Impact line of speakers. Ric Schultz, aka ricevs, the respected tweaker, whose $2200 amp EVS 1200 likely kills most expensive amps according to a few owners is enthusiastic about the Moab, a $4500 speaker in the Tekton line. I have not heard any Tekton speaker, but I like the concept of having small fast tweeter drivers cover a large range down to the lower midrange. |
Why don't you just open your mind-- what do you have to lose but a little time snipping zip? Well, I opened my mind recently when a dealer I bought Nordost Frey 2 RCA interconnects from suggested that I give the Frey speaker cables a try. I still like the definition of the interconnects, so I wanted to try the speaker cables. Nothing but a disaster, like a foggy veil that forces you to drive 20 MPH instead of 60. My fast little Bryston 2.5 B SST2 amp slowed down to an old school murky tube amp like the Dynaco Stereo 70 I once had. That bad, I'm not kidding. With zip cord, your ARC will have more detail and retain its musicality. If you want more prestige, go for the Mapleshade thin cables which I will hear one day. Too bad--it's your loss. |
