Man , I thought you liked the Belcanto Black system a lot more
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, Thanks for your latest list of amps, which is far more informative than most published reviews. I value your objective descriptions, but then it is up to each person to select one of those amps based on their own criteria. For example, if maximum clarity is sought, Hegel ranks higher than #3 for under $20K, because you said "it is just a neutral amp that will give you what you put in it." Same goes for Rowland 535, which is an "extremely clear sounding amp that might sound even clearer than my top picks here." Your greater preferences for Centaur, Lux are based on "musicality" and smoothness, which is another way of saying a "little sugar helps the medicine go down." You had said earlier that the Centaur lacks a little sparkle, and at present that "it is just easy on the ears" which is saying the same thing. And the Block may be the absolute best of anything you have tried because of its top race car speed and overall enjoyment. For me, I have found that "easy on the ears" gets boring after a while, and then clarity takes top priority. Also for you, the ref 10 did not reveal the big differences between the Oppo and Lampi, compared to using the Con Virgo preamp. So the "easy on the ears" ref 10 ultimately was replaced by the higher clarity Virgo, a great move on your part. |
" Easy on the ears " gets boring after a while, and then clarity takes top priority. "Concert halls are boring ", so they must lack clarity. It is interesting, how dynamic range is a fundamental characteristic of music reproduction, and is part of the " clarity " thing, but yet, it has been admitted by the Vman, his own system does not do well in that area of clarity. I believe WC gets plenty of dynamic range through his system ( maybe not the ultimate ), but without a doubt, and this is part of his " amplifier " journey, to extract the most of everything through his Neos. And lets keep in mind, we are talking about the loudest, versus the softest, moments of music, rather than ultimate volume levels. WC, as you probably know, I differ than you in how evaluations of equipment is done ( I require longer warm up times, maintain the same power cords, ics and speaker cables, etc. ). But, what I admire about you, during this journey of yours, which is at least tens time shorter than mine, your ears have gotten to be wonderful measurement tools, and you are looking ( listening ) for what YOU like. On top of this, with you're experimentation, you are willing, and understand, that changes could lead to making mistakes ( as monetarily careful as you can be ), to moving backwards, forwards, or sideways, all for the purpose of getting closer to your destination. Because of this, I will always read your thread. But as I said, I will try, very hard, not to post, unless I have anything to add to " your " journey ", and again, I apologize for my intro of this post. Enjoy ! MrD. |
mrdecibel, Wading through your long post, you come to the same conclusions and values that I have--"yes, like you, I want to be upclose and personal, but once music is recorded, it is such a mess, compared to live, unamplified music, that we all try to reassemble it, to give us that musical nirvana." PRECISELY, very elegantly stated, thank you. So while you are correct in saying that most people are just listening to the recordings as they are, and don't have our upfront experience, my preference is to "reassemble" it, which includes EQ as an important element, to convert the messy recording into a sound that more resembles the upclose excitement. There are some commercial upclose recordings that I love, such as the Turnabout Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances, made in 1967 that was an audiophile demo LP in the 70's and 80's. Mercury Living Presence recordings made even earlier are boosted in HF by the engineers and they have this upfront excitement, hence the name, Living Presence. Another popular demo recording, Jazz at the Pawnshop from 1976, was recorded at Stampen, a small club in old Stockholm, Sweden. It has an upfront perspective, which I confirmed by peaking in the window to see the small stage, close tables and intimate atmosphere. |
viber, we are more similar than different, but at this point, and the discussions you and I have, should be elsewhere, as this is the preference for wc. I have taken discussions " off this thread " with Guido, both through email and phone, and I am happy to do the same with you. Or, you can start your own thread on live, unamplified music, or whatever, and I am sure to be there with plenty of commentary. Take care, MrD. |
fwiw i have the luxman C900u and M900u and would never call them warm and boring. they are very transparent with all the ‘sparkle’ that’s on the recording. they don’t make poor recordings sound better and awesome recordings are mesmerizing. upon further reflection i can say that they have the best high frequencies that i’ve yet encountered. very refined and extended. |
WC, It has been a long time since you heard the Lux. Not only a long time, but many systems ago. Although I think you have great ears and methodology, ultimately only a side by side A/B will tell. Let's see what Guido thinks. He told me privately that even the stock stereo 535 is close to the 925 monos, and you have said that the Lux is close to the 925, so the odds are that the 535 is very close to the Lux. For clarity and sparkle, there might be slight shortcomings of the Centaur compared to the 535, so it would be interesting to try the Lux again. But you are so happy with your present system that I recommend being patient until the Merrill Elements are evaluated. I could get the Element 116 at $22K now, which is the sweet spot of his new line, but I am holding out for the $12K Element 114 model which Merrill says is very close to the 116. Frankly, for absolute clarity and value, I think the very top choices are the 535 and Element 114. I will definitely be reporting on the 114 when I get it. My guess is that the Elements will have good resale value, since Merrill is keeping us on edge with anticipation. But, as alexbpm and gwalt have said about the Alsyvox being endgame speakers, the Merrill Elements may very well be endgame amps at reasonable prices. |
WC, It's so sad that Viber has a need to dominate your thread. Although I read your thread, Viber is the sole reason why I and many more refuse to post on your thread. Viber, I don't get your constant need to say the same thing over and over again. I've talked to several Audiogon members and all of them agree you have become a significant distraction. Please, please stop! |
ricred1, If you read carefully, you will realize that I have new things to say, mainly in response to WC, although they are variations on the same theme which is clarity, clarity, clarity. Many people say similar things again and again, but with some variations on their themes. They are all welcome. henrycai, YOU say the same thing all the time, which is nothing but personal attacks, and nothing of audio substance. Please stop. ron17, You thanked me yesterday for a good summary and interpretation of WC's findings. No need for you to join the unappreciative crowd here. technodude, You are always welcome. Miss you. Anyone who doesn't find my posts informative can just ignore them. But I won't waste more time here if the spoilers here dominate. THEY are the source of the negativity which detracts from the spirit of shared information. That will be a loss for the people who appreciate my input. |
Unfortunately there isnt an IGNORE button. I would wager that Word for Word your posts accumulate for 50% of the entire thread for the past year. Its absurd and sad at the same time. No matter what anybody says including the OP you just keep going on and on about the same points that nobody gives a damn about...except the Troll and Father Guido Sarducci. Eventually the Troll figured he was no longer wanted by the masses and had the good sense to tuck his tail, his bad sense of humor and go into hibernation. For Gods Sake please get a life....somewhere else. We dont need to hear about Clarity or your Boutique Merrill Audio Amps again and again...you have substituted them for you beloved RANE at this point. Its unfortunate the OP cant banish you from ruining his thread till the end of days. I would bet ANYTHING he would if he could. |
Viber6, I have been less than kind to you in the past and though the community is not aware, I did apologize to you so I am going to try and be constructive and most importantly, not cruel... This is WC's thread. We are all here because of him. This thread is 2-1/2 years old and in little more than 1 year, you now account for nearly 10% of the posts. WC might not account for much more than 10% of the posts and this is his thread. I want to try and use an analogy that might make some sense... Since you love violin and symphonic music, it is rather like someone replacing a triangle with Big Ben and the percussionist is ringing it nearly constantly, although the score calls for only occasional triangle. Though you can still hear the violins, the bell is ringing to the point of complete distraction. At some point it doesn't matter if it is in time, out of time or having anything to do with the score. The ringing is so obtrusive, it makes it nearly impossible to enjoy the music, although the Big Ben player might really be enjoying his new found freedom of only playing on the 1/4 hours... This in no way suggests that Big Ben isn't a beautiful, sonorous, monumentally important historical feature of London (all of which is true), when it rings incessantly, it becomes a nuisance. Most importantly, WC is the conductor. And he has repeatedly in very respectful ways asked you to play the part of triangle, and not Big Ben. He has asked you to significantly restrict your playing to your appropriate part. I do not believe that you are malicious, or nasty, or ill natured. I believe that you are trying to be constructive, but you are not. You are treating this thread as if it is your composition and that you are self conducting it. You are frequently speaking for the conductor and directing the conductor. This is just an analogy and yes there are many ways to pick it apart but the message is still the same. I have spoken privately with numerous people involved in the thread and everyone with whom I have spoken feels similarly. WC puts a tremendous amount of himself and his energy into this thread and in many ways treats it like his baby. While you were on vacation it started to resume the thread of old that we all grew to really enjoy. In the days since your return it has developed the toxic flavor of late. Perhaps I can make this very digital... If you are posting more than once per week, you are quite likely being Big Ben and not the triangle. Being Big Bend will result in the thread dying and this is just not fair to WC who has poured so much of himself into it. Respectfully, psnyder149 |
psnyder149 Excellent analogy! Viber - here is an example of restraint. You have gone on and on about concert halls and the musicians perspective on stage. We hear it all the time. I happen to manage one of the most respected consulting practices in North America that specializes in performance sound for concert halls and I have not chimed in one bit because it is not relevant to the thread. |
Hi WC, thank you for your notes on the Rowland M535 in stereo mode. I am not surprised that a single M535 chassis with its 250W per side might not be a best match for your demanding Martin Logan Neoliths… Similarly, a single M535 falls a little short of ideal for my Vienna Die Muzik… A sheer matter of power, regardless of the extensive break-in that I afforded the amp. As I may have mentioned, and also you observed, a single M535 does a good job at yielding a stage that spans the virtual space between the speakers (about 9.5 feet apart in my case), however the stage does not exceed the outer boundaries of our demanding speaker pairs, and image sizes seemed to me a little shy of ideal. Furthermore, while the stereo unit never struggles, its authority seems to approach its upper limit on Die Muzik… Different story with a bridged pair, where in my case the stage appears to exceed the 19.5 with of my listening space, and the virtual image of a grand piano has a size congruent with a living instrument. On the other end, the patient break-in of your single unit would at least reveal the kind of organic glow that the amp is able to generate… No, not three years…. But extending break-in for a few weeks would show you what the stereo amp amp is capable of exposing of the intimate structure of the music… Dry is hardly an attribute that I would ever associate with this device.
Yet, the stereo unit will always fall far short of the sheer magic of a bridged pair. As KLH has pointed out, my own assessment of M535 as a reference piece is not of a single stereo unit, but concerns a bridged pair enhanced by the slip-on caps, where 900W per side and a 30A power supply in each chassis make all limitations outline above disappear, and the performance does graze M925 territory. By contrast, a single M535 does not approach the performance of M925 monos, as much as some participant of this thread ardently hopes for. Thus I hope that you will be eventually able to reinsert M535 into your system, and obtain a second unit for bridged operations, and bring the pair to full bloom.
I confess that I have had in my system but a risible fraction of the number of amps that you have experimented with. On the other hand, my tonal reference might be slightly different from yours, in that it is not based on a particular class of operation, nor a particular brand or amplifier model. Rather, my reference is the sound of live unamplified instruments, the perception of the intentionality of the performers, their deliberate interpretation as well as their unintended flaws, not to ignore those residual extra-musical cues which hopefully a top system may allow to emerge. Besides the living performances I have attended on both sides of the Pond, my live models are those instruments which I have dabbled with at one time or another, or I am still fiddling with, such as piano, harpsichord, pipe organ, baroque recorders (piccolo, soprano, alto, and tenor), flute, Bb trumpet, short Bb cornet, Eb cornet, flugelhorn, and euphonium… Cello instead I do not play, just coached for some 12 years. So, my perspective, right or wrong that it might be, may be a little different from yours.
IMO, seeking a literal reproduction of live acoustic music may be a fruitless endeavor… What might be realistic instead is to achieve a form of augmented reality whose perspective is somehow congruent with the live experience, and yet different from it… No, I won’t expand further on this subject in this thread… This is WC’s sandbox after all.
I should point out though, that rather than “getting used” to certain amps, I have found that a very small number of amps, such as the Rowland M925 monos and the bridged M535, yield what I am looking for.
This does not imply that there are no other amps or brands which fit my model. Over the years, I have auditioned a handful of brands of amps at home or at RMAF which, using a variety of technologies, also yield exactly or almost exactly what I aim to... I never had to "get used" to them... It has always been love at first sight... Or, I should say, "first sound!"
The one which as delighted me most at RMAF, and which in fact has taken my breath away, is Soulution… They generate a musical environment that matches my tone concept 100%. I should add DartZeel and Luxman as reference-level SS brands which I have found almost as enchanting. Other SS amps, well… not so much.
Moving to tubes, every time I listened to ARC reference series tube amplifiers I also felt that they were matching closely my musical ideas, if perhaps a smidgeon less than Soulution… And equally delightful were the VTL Siegfried and 450 monos.
In the current class D domain, the Merrill Element 118 are IMO amps to watch closely… I had the honor of having a yet incomplete prototype pair in my own system – sadly only for a few days last year… Except for some slight excesses in the treble which were likely an artifact of incomplete break-in, they did create an incredible immersive experience, which was, like the examples cited above, an immersive hyperreality consistent with unamplified live music. Do not think for a moment that if you are familiar with the lovely Veritas you already have a significant idea of Element 118… The latter is a very different and much superior beast.
Regards, Guido
PS. Apologies for the long post. |
Guido, as we have discussed on the phone, you, viber and I, listen differently than most, and use mostly live unamplified music as our reference. The simple fact is this. Recorded music, starting with the microphones, loses much of this " genuine " character, anyway, so wc's, and anyone else's interpretation of a " performance ", should never be questioned. WC, and 75 % of high end listeners, that I know, and have known, put tremendous listener emphasis on sound staging, and imaging. And you know what ? That is terrific, especially if this characteristic of music reproduction is enjoyable to them, and gets them closer to " their " truth. If I were able to exchange my main system for a guaranteed live performance, every day, forever, I would. But our systems are exactly that; Ours. I do not bend ears screaming horns for everybody, although, my ownership and enthusiasm for them is heard, quite often. There are many ways to reproduce recorded music, and each of us is entitled to go about it in our own ways. We no longer need to state the live music thing here, as you just have. Especially since wc has asked us not to. As a professional audio consultant for years, it was my job to work with my customers, listen to my customers, and help them build what " they " enjoyed. I was able to separate myself, and what I enjoyed, to what direction they wanted to go. Where am I going with this ? The individuality thing, again, as we are all reaching for our own straws.. I will close by saying this. I will try and follow wc for as long as his journey continues, and will try to stay in line with his wishes. He is enjoying the ride, and THIS, is all that matters. Enjoy ! MrD. |
gtaphile, Your insights about concert hall sound are very relevant here to anyone trying to use concert hall recordings as a reference for their audio system. Audiophile pursuits are not random combinations of components like ketchup in green tea, but about trying to achieve a likeness to real sound, which is the most exciting thing of all. We could communicate privately, but I think your knowledge would benefit many people here. |
Viber6, MrD, Respectfully, how you listen to music is Much different than WCSS, myself and many others. You enjoy acoustic NON Amplified music, which is a genre I appreciate (I have had season tickets to Andre Previn conducting the Pgh Symphony in Heinz Hall, an acoustic masterpiece). That said, I love rocking out too the classic equivalents of Clapton with Cream, Derek and the Dominos, Allman Brothers Band, Jefferson Airplane/Starship, etc, The difference creates a substantial chasm in how various gear represents the genre. I have sat on the stage with the Doors when they played and Nothing can recreate that sound in the home. It can be approached at a distance, but never close. Just one guys opinion on the difference between musical choices and replication. |
ihasaguy, Good points. Years ago, I attended enjoyable concerts in Heinz Hall. I can also understand your rock concert experience. However, WC once said that he took his wife to a club, and they both agreed that his system sounded better than live. I agree with that, because live rock concerts use inferior amps and speakers, so that's why Harry Pearson of the Absolute Sound said that the best reference is live unamplified music. I would modify that slightly, because you can design your system to have an upfront perspective and get more detail and appreciation of the music than sitting far back in the hall. But a close seat for unamplified music will give you more of everything with more life and naturalness than any hifi. |
Hi guys, ive decided to hold off from taking delivery of the tube amps I wanted to try because I’m right now having contractors come over to give me estimates in order to build a dedicated room in my garage. I am now more about that than ever before and well the few quotes I’ve received are ballpark with what I’ve expected. That said, I’m thinking that something will need to be sacrificed from my equipment in order to free up cash that can be put towards the room. Neoliths, Lampizator etc. I’m brainstorming with what I want to part ways with for now if I do decide to do this. i also plan to make this room a home theater room to share with the family so there will be a full 11.2 set up at some point. I don’t personally like electrostatics too much for surround sound so maybe a focal, Wilson or a new brand is coming? Not sure, too much up in the air. |
Hello riaa, sorry I had missed your post... I admit 'tis a real beauty, a gem in the art of purple prose. I too sometimes regret the abscence of "ignore" buttons... On the other hand, were I to "ignore" your contributions, I would deprive myself the pleasure of chuckling at your ascerbic verve... A real loss *Grins!* To MrD, There are doubtless multiple perspectives on ideal tone.... There are amplified music buffs, acoustic music fans, classicists and jazzers and rockers, string players, brassophiles, 4th row sitters and 20th row aficionados... Everyone seeking their own special version of the "True Truth" in sound... Provided we acknowledge and embrace the relativity of what is "best", I am happy, even though I sit on a minority bench of this audiophrenic congress. to WC, what is the size of your garage and future listening room? Hope you will add a liberal number of 20A circuits, and may be a couple or three 30A circuits as well. Hope you won't have to trade in the Neos... Those lovelies may be hard to follow. Saluti, Guido (Sarducci)
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I would keep the Neoliths. And sell everything else you have to. It shouldn't cost more than $12k w/electric for what your'e asking for. Get a second estimate if they want over $20k to build the room. I have a soundproof room in my garage 20X16, and it cost just over $3k in materials. Contractors will charge whatever they think you will pay. The same job could be double of what the other contractor offers. I really liked your last setup of your system. Congrats on getting better sound. Sometimes that's not the case. |
Guido, I appreciate the response, but keep in mind, I never tried to make it an " attack " on you. Ihasaguy, no one enjoys " cranking " the A Bs Live at Fillmore East " more than I, but I keep those levels at a minimum time frame, as to protect my ears. What is most satisfying, are those lower listening levels, that still portray the loud vs soft passages, such as in " Amused to Death ", by R Ws. Viber, you never responded to my email...……..... WC, I am assuming you are planning to stay in your home for quite a while. Converting a garage to a Home Theater room, at least in the Florida area that I am, does nothing for the property value. An audio buddy of mine recently built a newer home in the Mt. Dora area of Florida, working with a contractor, on a piece of property my buddy purchased. What a wonderful sound room, as I did give him many tips on the room build. And he maintained a wonderful and useful 2 car garage. I understand property values are higher in your neck of the woods, but someone who has owned, "at one time ", 200K of audio gear ( doing my math ), should build a newer home, with a dedicated music room. This is how I see it. Anyway, I am glad you are getting yourself a larger, more " dedicated " area, which will satisfy the home theater and 2 channel thing, although, I still, ime, feel, discreet, dedicated, 2 channel music systems are always superior than those that do double duty with home theater. But again, this is me, as music will always be a greater enjoyment than movie watching. So, enjoy, with whatever you do. Always, MrD. |
Re building a sound room. While it can be done cheaply the types of techniques proposed by companies like ASC and used by Robert Harley in the room he described in the Absolute Sound are incredibly labor intensive. This translates to big $ if you’re paying someone else, or a lot of work for you if you DIY (like Harley did). My room is ASC iso wall based and I had to use a firm versed in passive home green building techniques because no one else would touch it, needless to say it cost a lot more than $20k. Anyway the AS article you were pointed to is a good read and very on point on what to expect. |
Also, a studio mastering engineer recently told me that most audiophiles like certain distortions. I realized he is right. So, the technically "correct" measurements of the acoustician may not give you the sound you like. This is analogous to our debate about subjectivity vs objective measurements relating to the sound of electronics. gtaphile, What do you think? |
Most audiophiles like distortion? Sorry, don’t buy it. Now, I do believe most audiophiles learn to live with distortions of various types, but that’s because they’re used to it, it’s always been there, they may or may not even be aware of it. But that’s not the same thing as saying they like distortion. |
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